Hand Loading For Disaster

[700cdl]

Hello all,
I'm rather new to this web site but have read post after post about typical issues with hand loading that frankly scares me. I've been hand loading for metallic and shotshell for over two decades and have as well worked in the retail industry. Having been around the busines and those engaging in the process has allowed me to personally observe the common mistakes that have, as well, commonly resulted in personal injury and destroyed guns. In every single circumstance the cause was due to someone not taking this hobby serious, failing to educate their selves or simply not believing its necessary to perform critical steps as required even when provided with good sound advice. Most common reason though for injury and destroyed guns has been due to the person concentrating their efforts on economics by choosing the fastest buring powder available , so as to use the least amount possible. Certainly this isn't a bad choice if the data is there, right? think about what happens when a hand loader can't see the difference when an acidental double charge is dropped? I can't possibly count the number of times I've seen this happen, its astronomical. I'm not saying if you hand load you the slowest burning powder you can, that is not fair to those who don't like super high velocity loads and recoil. But on the other hand, there are powders that fall into the middle of the road and will make it very difficult to double charge a case without noticing it easily, if not impossible to not notice.
I'm sure there is someone out there that can relate to my findings and will help me to elaborate on this topic, not just powder choice, but the frequent & common causes of dangerous mis-haps experienced by a lack of respect for the process. I just think that some hand loaders need a wake up call to prevent them from getting hurt and further causing problems for the future of this hobby.
"When seconds count, the police are only a few minutes away"

 

[Ideal Tool]

I agree, 700cdl. No matter how long we have been at this game, we cannot allow ourselves to drop our guard as far as safty is concerned. I use two loading blocks, seperated from one another. In one, all primed cases are mouth down, as I pick up case, I make a shake with my hand/arm as though I am trying to empty it...this is exactly what I am doing. Once case is charged, it goes over to other block. Every 5 rounds..1 row, I check powder height with small mag-light. Once checked, bullet is placed by hand into case mouth. ( I am usually loading cast bullets, so mouth is expanded for easy bullet entry & retention). What really gives me the willies is to read a post by some new guy who has never so much as seated a primer before, wanting to know what progressive press to buy for maximum ctg. output per hour! Now THAT is a disaster just waiting to happen!

 

[amamnn]

Like the poor--the idiots will always be with us. It would be interesting to see what percentage of people who handload actually have "accidents" as compared with those licensed drivers who run their cars into each other, innocent bystanders, and etc...discounting all the second or third hand stories that may or may not be true.

I've been doing this for over 50 years and I could count on one hand the number of "accidents" I have personally witnessed due to pilot error in a handload. If I actually saw "astronomical" numbers of such events I would move out of West Virginia or wherever it is you've had this misfortune to be around such fools. The law of averages is not on your side--with that many cretins around, one of them is sure to involve you in an incident.

 

[wncchester]

" I just think that some hand loaders need a wake up call to prevent them from getting hurt and further causing problems for the future of this hobby."


Like Mr. Amamnn, I've been doing this a very long time but if you've seen astronomical numbers of double charges and other accidents your experience vastly exceeds my own. In fact, I have no personal knowledge of any shooting accidents due to poor reloading. Nevertheless, what you're concerned about is not from ignorance, that's a lack of knowledge which can be fixed. It's likely that most of the people you speak of know the facts so it descends to terminal stupidity which I don't know how to fix. What do you suggest we do about it?

 

[medalguy]

I agree with part of his post, the part about all the newbies wondering which progressive press to buy. I used to post that they needed to start with a single stage press but got tired of being drowned out in all the screeching about which is best, red or blue, ignoring the fact that the newbie doesn't have a clue what he's about to do.

I don't know the answer to this part. I too have been handloading nearly 50 years, and in all that time I have seen exactly one shooter with a squib. I have never experienced that (yet) and I've never seen a gun destroyed. Maybe I missed out on something but I tend to be very conservative and the friends I shoot with tend to be the same. Maybe that's why we're friends, dunno.

I figure all any of us can do is contnue to stress the fun as well as the dangers in handloading. As you said, terminal stupidity can't be fixed.

 

[Clark500]

If I actually saw "astronomical" numbers of such events I would move out of West Virginia or wherever it is you've had this misfortune to be around such fools.

What exactly are you trying to say? Ever been there?

 

[testuser]

I regularly read posts online discussing charges that are in excess of published loads, usually it's because someone didn't buy enough gun in the first place. Like when someone tries to turn a .40 S&W into a 10mm, or a 9mm into a .357 Sig, etc.

 

[maggys drawers]

I cringe when I see less experienced loaders ask a question and get bad answers from "master" reloaders "who have been doing it this way for 30 years and never had a problem". If they are called on the practice, they won't back down because it's always worked for them. Wouldn't surprise me if they had bald tires on their cars and 20 extension cords running out of one electrical outlet, too...after all, they been doing it for 30 years and never had a problem....

My reloading mentor always stressed safe, established and proven practices, check and recheck then check again, and if I was in unfamiliar territory- learn about it before I went further, and then make sure I understood what I had learned.

His best advice- Pay attention to what you are doing, don't get in a hurry, and don't cut corners.

 

[William T. Watts]

When I select a powder for a rifle I look for highest velocity and loading density of at least 80%, there is no way I can double charge a case. Before seating bullets I inspect every case to ensure thay have been charged with powder and all cases are filled to the same level. I load only one pistol round (45 ACP), I load 5grs of W231 behind a 230gr Golden Sabre bullet, I always check to ensure each case has been properly charged before seating a bullet. Never have I had a squib round nor a bullet lodge in a barrel, further I've never had a case to rupture nor any other major failure. Before I loaded my first round I spent years reading everything I could put my hands on and developed a vocabulary to understand the abc's of loading before starting this hobby. I have loaded my own ammo for 45 years, there was only Jack O'Connor, Elmer Keith, Hatchers Notebook and loading manuals to guide you. Most people do not want to take the time to read and understand the most basic principles of loading ammunition, that's to bad! William

 

[Hog Buster]

In over 50 years of shooting and reloading I’ve seen plenty of idiots with guns, but no idiot reloaders. The idiots are looking for instant gratification and reloading doesn't fill that bill. They have the biggest, tricked out piece of trash gun on the range and can’t hit a circus tent at a hundred yards, plenty of gun talk, but they don’t reload.

Also during this time I have never seen anyone injured or a gun blown up with reloads. No doubt that it happens, but only very rarely.

I fail to see that in the rare case where some incompetent jerk may blow himself up how that affects reloaders in general. To me it’s just a double charge of chlorine in the gene pool.

 

[ipscchef]

I have been reloading with my freinds for about thirty years now and I have had one serious problem. You say you have seen astranomical amounts of problems. Please elaborate. I am certain everyone here would be most interested. We are waiting.

Bill Henderson

 

[WESHOOT2]

I'm an idiot loader.

But I'm an idiot first.



ps it likely ain't double charges

 

[700cdl]

In response to those of you who cast some doubt as to how many incidents I've had first hand knowledge of that involved a blown up gun is largely due to the fact that I worked in the retail end of the industry. I sold numerous complete hand loading set ups to beginners and always informed then to please come in or call me with questions or problems. Some would return with guns blown up and bruises asking me what went wrong. Upon disassembling remaining rounds I often discovered a percentage that were either without charges or double charged and in fact some with as much as a tripple charge. But of all the really bad incidents, most were related to the extreme over charged cases. I recall at least 3 incidents in which the individual didn't properely adjust the resizing die and even though the bullet would fall in side of the case after charging they still tried to chamber the round resulting in the gun blowing up. All of those were with high powered rifles and over charged cases were a mix of rifle and handgun rounds. Some destroyed guns were the cause of powder not properely weighed, using a powder csoop but not checking it against a scale first, wrong powder for the charge or cartridge being loaded, failing to zero the scale before weighing because they didn't know how or didn't know it was necessary to do so. As would any claim of issues with this process being adressed with the retailer, I always requested the person bring in their remaining loads and fired cases for inspection. When I stated an astronomical occurance of improperely charged cases being the culprit I was being honest. And to reiterate on that, it is deffinitely because of my involvement in the industry that surely exposed me at a level most wouldn't experience. I also taught hand loading classes which had a profound impact on the number of incidents I encountered regarding my claim above regarding powder charges the primary cause. That part of my experience and background often left me with some blaming me, for failing to explain the process in better detail, even though it was certain they were the ones who failed to take the process seriously enough to pay attention, and ask questions at any point in time during or after the conclusion of training classes. I can honestly say that even though I learned hand loading from books such as the Speer manual and other very detailed instruction sources and without a mentor, I never had one single mis-fire, squib, or other failure in the over 2 1/2 decades of hand loading. I'm not a brain surgon or have a particularily high I.Q., I simply read front to back multiple times until I fully understood what I was doing was being sone the right way. I've now reached a point in my teaching that has given my the ability to spot those who are not capable of ever grasping the concept or simply display a lack of respect for the process in that they show a disregard for certain steps as though they are excessive and unnecessary. I'm rather blunt with those idividuals about the fact that such a lack of respect will find them into dangerous territory.

 

[WESHOOT2]

better; I ain't a complete idiot

I believe "over charge".

 

[700cdl]

Mr. William T. Watts,
Your choice of powders is consistant with mine. Since the beginning I have always used the slowest burning powders because a double charge is just so easy to mistakenly happen. But even if a hand loader insists on utilizing the fast burning stuff he can avoid a lot of the risk of over charging by taking sme simple steps of prevention. Physically inspecting is first and formost but can still lead to problems if using a powder that only calls for 2 or 3 grains, that can be an easy charge to over look. But for the sake of performance if nothing else, the slow buring powders will always perform better than the economical choice and make mess on the loading block if a double charge does slip by. If looking at load data one can see that nearly every listed load described as the most accurate and often the highest velocity one as well will be with the slow buring powder for that particular cartridge. Economical powder charges are not even utilized by factory ammunitin manufacturer's because they don't perform consistently producing unpredictable velocities. Ever look at the case loaded with a charge of fast powders, it will always have one side of the case blackened because the powder was laying to one side of the case which developes eradic pressure build up during ignition.
I knew this topic would cause some critics to challenge my opinion and claims, but thats a good thing as some may examine my opinion at a later date, maybe after their next incident involving a squib or suspect double charged case. I find it very difficult to believe that a large percentage of loaders who use fast burning powders even know what the cause of their fractured case, blow up gun, squib, or other unusually performing load will admit what caused the problem or know what caused it. They are overly confident and think it is some strange unexplained occurance. The physics associated with hand loading is very much a predictable process and should never rely on a guess or whim to work with.

 

[Clay]

I'm one of these new reloaders and having an absolute blast. I'm only loading with powders, so far, that can't be double charged, they'd overflow the cases! H110 and Varget. I also went with a single stage press. So far pistol loading has been without issue, but I have made a few mistakes, most notably with my 308 loads. Of course, they were simply with over seating or crushing the cases from too much crimp. Those bullets are now sitting on a shelf to remind me of my mistakes. LOL I will say that I NEVER could have done this properly without all the videos on youtube and reading I've done. Things like how much to bell the mouth of the case, setting your dies up properly... all those videos (especially from the user ammosmith on youtube!) were a massive help.

I honestly can't imagine a person that's new to this going straight to a progressive. I have no desire for a progressive because you're just leaving too much up to the machine.

 

[4runnerman]

(I honestly can't imagine a person that's new to this going straight to a progressive. I have no desire for a progressive because you're just leaving too much up to the machine)

Im with ya on that one. All my charges are done one at a time and Compared to other cases. Im a bench rest shooter,so all my loads are down to the.01 gn load. I chose a single stage for just that reason. I want accuracy not quanity. My only mistake in some where around 25,000 rounds has been to seat one to deep. All my loads are well below max as i don't need speed for punching paper or accuracy. I to have never seen a mistake from any one in all my time shooting,But i don't doubt it happens.

 

[wncchester]

"..the people you speak of know the facts so it descends to terminal stupidity which I don't know how to fix. What do you suggest we do about it?"

You continue to describe what you see as the problems but still fail to suggest what we do about it. ??

Not that it matters much, but a 17 line paragraph (#1), a 26 line paragraph (#13) and another 17 line paragraph (#15) makes reading them and following the thoughts really difficult.

 

[F. Guffey]

"I'm sure there is someone out there that can relate to my findings and will help me to elaborate on this topic"



700cdl, I can not help you with 'YOUR' findings because I have already found 'YOUR' findings published before you started reloading, most of it before there were archives to research, 'on the net'.



If you are looking for a cause try to convince reloaders there are other ways , techniques and methods to accomplish the same task for less money with the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage, but even then before there were all these 'nice to have tools' SOMEONE has to wonder, WHAT DID THEY USE?



F. Guffey

 

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Most common reason though for injury and destroyed guns has been due to the person concentrating their efforts on economics by choosing the fastest buring powder available , so as to use the least amount possible. Certainly this isn't a bad choice if the data is there, right? think about what happens when a hand loader can't see the difference when an acidental double charge is dropped? I can't possibly count the number of times I've seen this happen, its astronomical.

I think the most common reason for injury is due to the person NOT concentrating on what they are doing OR they are just a bona fide IDIOT! There are idiots everywhere. Pay attention and educate yourself and you won't have a problem...

Common sense...

Not quite sure the reason behind this thread...