Guy acting drunk in the yard: scenario and poll

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Skans: That [going inside the house] 's the one thing I'm not going to do. It's my land and I have no intention of ever retreating on my own land.

Retreating? Are you under attack?

Actually, the OP is not on his "own land"--he's in a relative's front yard.

Maybe not the smartest thing,...

Well said.

...but a guy has to decide when he's going to stand his ground.

"Stand his ground?" Why? Is it an ego thing?

I would go inside if it started to rain heavily, if large hailstones started to come down, if the police were engaged in a stand-off up the street, or to get a drink of water. I wouldn't consider it "retreating." Nor would I see any reason to "stand my ground," should going inside be the best way to avoid an interaction with someone with an apparent behavioral disorder who just may be infected with something incurable.

However, since you have brought up the subject of retreat, where I live I do have a duty to retreat if i am threatened, if it is possible to do so safely, unless I am in my domicile or automobile. It's not in the statute but the duty exists.

If that duty did not exist, and if retreat were safely possible, I would nonetheless retreat if I were endangered by an assailant. It's safer legally, it's better tactically, it's probably a whole lot cheaper, and doing otherwise proves nothing for me.

 

[Rampant_Colt]

What if the guy was on pcp, meth or some type of psychoactive drug that impairs or numbs his pain receptors? By confronting this guy all you've done now is escalated the situation into a dangerous, potentially lethal scenario that could have been avoided by simply walking away.

Did you ever hear about guys on those drugs that break handcuffs, drink pepper spray, scoff at tasers, get hit by cars [actual thread from on here], shot multiple times, and STILL pose a threat?

Ego, adrenaline and testosterone are sometimes a lethal combination. Add strong drugs or alcohol to the equation, and it's the perfect recipe for a lethal confrontation▬it happens in bars every single day

 

[Skans]

I would go inside if it started to rain heavily, if large hailstones started to come down, if the police were engaged in a stand-off up the street, or to get a drink of water. I wouldn't consider it "retreating." Nor would I see any reason to "stand my ground," should going inside be the best way to avoid an interaction with someone with an apparent behavioral disorder who just may be infected with something incurable.

However, since you have brought up the subject of retreat, where I live I do have a duty to retreat if i am threatened, if it is possible to do so safely, unless I am in my domicile or automobile. It's not in the statute but the duty exists.

If that duty did not exist, and if retreat were safely possible, I would nonetheless retreat if I were endangered by an assailant. It's safer legally, it's better tactically, it's probably a whole lot cheaper, and doing otherwise proves nothing for me.

The bottom line is that, if I am in my own front yard (I understand that this may not have been the OP's scenario - not sure) and some drunk, nutty scary guy comes stagering down the street, whether I'm armed or not, I'm not going to tuck tail and run inside my house. Even if it's a relative's front yard, I'm not going to tuck tail and run inside the house. It's just not in my nature to act like that.

 

[Evan Thomas]

Who said anything about "tucking tail?" You're not under threat, you just need to make a phone call, and you can't make it outside. Heck, go inside, make the call, and go back out if you want, but make the call.

I wouldn't let my ego get in the way of doing what needs to be done in this situation... and I'd feel sort of bad if this fellow collapsed and died on my lawn, and I'd done nothing to get help for him.

 

[Edward429451]

Why does it have to be an ego thing to stand your ground? Is standing your ground a bad thing? Would one be a bad guy to stand thier ground? Would it make you feel like a mall ninja to stand your ground? Jeesh.

Standing your ground is the correct thing to do here. I didn't say retreat in the house and call 911, nor did I say confront the drunk and talk to him. Ignore him. So far he has not made threats? So what, a drunk guy makin his way down the block. Skans had a great idea, do not talk to him, hopefully he will be creeped out and move along.

I also would not see a reason to call the police. Why? He's walking. Nor can I wrap my mind around that he might have a medical condition, so I would be helping him to call the police on him. I suppose it is possible (But I am not medically qualified to make that determination), and besides...honestly, it can not be reasonable assumed that the police will help him at all other than fill him up with charges. The drunk doesn't deserve that. What has he done? Act drunk. He wasn't aggressive or else thier wouldn't be so much greyness or even a thread with the question! He was showing some spirit so to speak, but not threatening you or the thread would have a different tone.

It saddens me that so many would be poised to call the authorities on your fellow man for walking down the street. Live and let live people. I promise all of you, you can walk down my street drunk if you want and as long as no aggression is shown you can dance a jig down the street and I will not sic the dogs on you.

 

[Evan Thomas]

I also would not see a reason to call the police. Why? He's walking.

From the OP:

He’s staggering a bit, dragging his feet some, talking and mumbling to himself...

As I said above -- yes, most likely he's drunk. So what are the odds that he's going to stagger into the street and be hit by a car? Why take the chance, when you can maybe save a life by making a phone call?

I had exactly such an incident outside my house not that long ago: the man was clearly drunk, yelling incoherently, and staggering in and out of the street at the bus stop. My first reaction was "Live and let live..." Why complicate his life by calling the police on him?

But I realized, as I watched him, that he was putting himself in some danger -- it's a busy street.

Just as I picked up the phone to call them, the police arrived, talked with him for a bit, and finally put him in the back of the squad car and drove away. I felt some regret that I hadn't acted sooner, and promised myself that another time, I wouldn't wait.

If he'd been hit by a car whilst I dithered, I would have felt pretty miserable about it.

Some people here are very quick to assert that they'd risk their own lives to save someone who was in jeopardy. So what does it say that pride, ego, or principle would keep them from taking the tiny step of making a phone call that might do the same thing? Just because he looks down-and-out and is acting funny, he's not worthy of some minimal help?

I really don't get it.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Skans: The bottom line is that, if I am in my own front yard (I understand that this may not have been the OP's scenario - not sure) and some drunk, nutty scary guy comes stagering down the street, whether I'm armed or not, I'm not going to tuck tail and run inside my house. Even if it's a relative's front yard, I'm not going to tuck tail and run inside the house. It's just not in my nature to act like that.

Ok. So the question becomes, can you adjust your thought processes so that you employ a fact based and risk based decision process rather than acting upon what is "in your nature"?

Of course, in the scenario as described, it may be perfectly reasonable to just ignore the guy--initially, and up to a point. But should push come to shove, and should some indications of an immediate threat become evident,"standing your ground" is likely to prove to be a losing gambit, and to "tuck tail" may be the smarter one by far.

You said yourself that staying outside may not be the smartest thing to do. I agree.

Think about why:

• It contributes nothing toward the achievement of any important objective;
• It contributes to the possibility of an interaction from which you cannot benefit, that may have considerable down-side risk; and
• The alternative--going inside--is likely to negate all risks at absolutely no cost to you.

One encounters people on the board who are very averse to the idea of seeing someone seemingly attacking someone else or fiddling with their trailer outside in the dark without introducing themselves into a risky situation, but some of those who have decided to do "what is in their nature" have really regretted it.

 

[efield]

I think I'd try not to engage him at all if possible and retreat toward the house. If he aggressively engaged me or came on the property in a threatening manner, that would change this whole scenario.

 

[Skans]

Of course, in the scenario as described, it may be perfectly reasonable to just ignore the guy--initially, and up to a point. But should push come to shove, and should some indications of an immediate threat become evident,"standing your ground" is likely to prove to be a losing gambit, and to "tuck tail" may be the smarter one by far.

All I can really tell you is that I distinguish between being out in public and being on my own land. If I'm in public and a threat comes my way, I may decide to simply walk the other way.

But, on my own land (or even on a relative's land), I believe that I have a moral duty to myself to stand my ground. It's not really a losing gambit, because I'd either be armed, or it would be fairly easy to arm myself quickly better than some guy carrying a stick. Even if I'm not armed, I'm pretty adept at defending myself against a drunk bum armed with a stick. It goes against every grain in my body to cower like a trapped animal on my own land and "wait for help".

Y'all do what you want. I'll stand my ground. IMHO, this country is made up of way too many people afraid to stand their ground in the face of a mild threat, instead relying on some hired-hand government employee to "protect" them.

 

[spacemanspiff]

Well if the drunk was of my own race I wouldn't have batted an eye. But your scenario with a guy of a 'different race', man you should have drawn down and executed a citizens arrest for him being drunk in public and disorderly conduct and brandishing a deadly weapon and trespassing.

I dunno, maybe I'm just jaded after dealing regularly with intoxicated persons.

 

[Evan Thomas]

Even if I'm not armed, I'm pretty adept at defending myself against a drunk bum armed with a stick. It goes against every grain in my body to cower like a trapped animal on my own land and "wait for help".

Y'all do what you want. I'll stand my ground. IMHO, this country is made up of way too many people afraid to stand their ground in the face of a mild threat, instead relying on some hired-hand government employee to "protect" them.

Well... my point is precisely that the drunk (or ill) bum isn't much of a threat to you; he's likely far more of a threat to himself. The reason for calling the police in this situation isn't that you might need help, it's that he does.

[IRONY]But... I guess it was his choice to get drunk, or not take care of his diabetes, or whatever, so if he staggers into the street and gets hit by a car it will be his own fault...[/IRONY]

And in the meantime, you can feel like a rugged individualist. Have at it.

 

[Buzzcook]

How about approaching the guy and seeing if he needs any help?
Go in the house and make the guy a sandwich? Escort him to the park? Give him a ride to a homeless shelter?

If kindness doesn't work then pump him full of lead

 

[markj]

I would tell him the direction the park is and go about my business. Didnt sound like a threat to me at all.

Years ago my bro in law at the time whooped my sis, I ignored it until he hit my mom. I went over there, he was drunk, he picked up a stick, I knocked him out sent him to the hospital one punch (my usual method). Cops came, one wanted to arrest me but due to the bro in law being unconcious he couldnt file a request or say who hit him. Be carefull how you handle any situation, it may bite you hard even if you are in the right.

Bro in law died of cancer, I take care of my niece his daughter nowadays.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

lol

He said an inch and a quarter, not one quarter:

Apparently, my donations came too late for myself. http://www.interdys.org/

With that said, I found Skans comments interesting.

The bottom line is that, if I am in my own front yard (I understand that this may not have been the OP's scenario - not sure) and some drunk, nutty scary guy comes stagering down the street, whether I'm armed or not, I'm not going to tuck tail and run inside my house. Even if it's a relative's front yard, I'm not going to tuck tail and run inside the house. It's just not in my nature to act like that.
...............................
But, on my own land (or even on a relative's land), I believe that I have a moral duty to myself to stand my ground. It's not really a losing gambit, because I'd either be armed, or it would be fairly easy to arm myself quickly better than some guy carrying a stick. Even if I'm not armed, I'm pretty adept at defending myself against a drunk bum armed with a stick. It goes against every grain in my body to cower like a trapped animal on my own land and "wait for help".

A moral duty to stand your ground when you are outside and you aren't going to actually lose any ground to the advancing drunk/mental guy? Since the guy is a stranger to you, you don't have previous history with him, then why worry about standing your ground when it seems he is just passing through? Sometimes, getting out of the way of a passing disaster would be much more prudent, would it not.

Why risk the possibility of getting hurt or worse if you don't have to?

 

[Jimmy10mm]

I voted for option 2 but I wouldn't approach him. I would have pointed in the general direction of the park and said it was "that way". I am an old guy but I was an ironworker for twenty years, have been lifting weights and riding bicycles regularly for years so I'm in fairly decent shape for 61.

I've worked in a street tattoo shop for the twenty years since giving up the ironwork and I'm not easily intimidated. If the guy was still there and hassling me I would have tried for the house/phone. The ccw would have been the absolute last resort if I didn't think I could take him down with my hands if it should have been necessary.

 

[m&p45acp10+1]

I would go into the house, and call for help for him. I am a medic. My mindset tends to be a tad differant from everyone else at times. I was trained to know they are not always just drunk.
That sounds similar to a sitution that happened to a very close friend of our family. Thing was he was the guy staggering, he was flailing with a flyswatter. He had fallen down a few times. Nothing he was saying was discernable to anyone that saw him. The police showed up after some one called them. They assumed he was just another tansient. They tackeled him. cuffed him. Took him to jail. 3 hours later he was found dead in the drunk tank.
He looked drunk, his breath smelled like he was drunk. He was acting like he was drunk. Only thing is he had 2 medic alert tags on. One was a bracelet, the other a necklace. He was diabetic. His insulin level spiked. His family sued the crap out of the city police department, and the county.
Now they check the blood sugar levels of all of the people they are booking into the jail. I responded to more than one call to the jail for diabetic emergencies in the time after they imlemented the testing. Unfortunately it cost a man his life for them to implement such a program.

 

[Elmer]

It's good to see the majority of the opinions given are rational and reasonable.

Those who carry on about "not backing down" from an unnecessary use of deadly force situation, have clearly never been in one, or experienced the aftermath.

When you've lost your job, and spent your life savings on either defense attorneys, civil attorneys, or both, even if you're completely exonerated, get back to us on how proud you are that you defended your Uncle Bob's Bermuda grass from a homeless drunk........

There's a lot that Massad Ayoob has written over the years that I'd take issue with, but years ago, he wrote of buying drinks for several antagonists in a bar that were threatening him and trying to get him outside. Despite being armed, he realized that though he could likely justify using his gun against several large, violent attackers, the costs and hassle for doing so weren't worth a couple of bucks for beers. He was spot on, and I've done similar things, even with a badge in my pocket to go with the gun I was carrying.

The fact that you have a gun doesn't give you less reason to avoid a confrontation, it gives you more reason for doing so.

 

[Evan Thomas]

That sounds similar to a sitution that happened to a very close friend of our family. Thing was he was the guy staggering, he was flailing with a flyswatter. He had fallen down a few times. Nothing he was saying was discernable to anyone that saw him. The police showed up after some one called them. They assumed he was just another tansient. They tackeled him. cuffed him. Took him to jail. 3 hours later he was found dead in the drunk tank.
He looked drunk, his breath smelled like he was drunk. He was acting like he was drunk. Only thing is he had 2 medic alert tags on. One was a bracelet, the other a necklace. He was diabetic. His insulin level spiked.

Thank you for confirming that this possibility isn't as far-fetched as all that ...

And I'm sorry for the loss... to his family and to yours.

 

[Big Tom]

hmmm....I'd say go into the home and lock everything while calling the police. If he breaks in then take him out. If not the wait for cops and have them to a perimeter search outside your home and tell them everything that happened including the mans intended destination. Give a description of what he was wearing and what he looked like including height, age, weight, and race. This will help law enforcement narrow their search. Keep your gun loaded next to you when you go to bed and a light and phone their as well. Always be prepared and even tell the neighbors to keep an eye out telling them what happend. This should really help you out in the long run!

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Double Naught Spy: A moral duty to stand your ground when you are outside and you aren't going to actually lose any ground to the advancing drunk/mental guy?

I can't figure that out either.

"Moral duty"...hmmm.

Since the guy is a stranger to you, you have [no] previous history with him, then why worry about standing your ground when it seems he is just passing through?

Good question!

Sometimes, getting out of the way of a passing disaster would be much more prudent, would it not.

I certainly think so. There's nothing lost in doing that, unless one has some idea that "standing ground" is a "moral duty."

Why risk the possibility of getting hurt or worse if you don't have to?

That has always been the right idea, but these days , when just the unexpected exchange of even the smallest amount of bodily fluid can result in a long, slow, death, it is usually best to avoid unnecessary contact with anyone who even appears unsavory.

Posted by Elmer: Those who carry on about "not backing down" from an unnecessary use of deadly force situation, have clearly never been in one, or experienced the aftermath.

Not only that, but if they have ever read any accounts about people who have (might I recommend In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob), they have either failed to understand the message or somehow believe that it cannot happen to them.

When you've lost your job, and spent your life savings on either defense attorneys, civil attorneys, or both, even if you're completely exonerated, get back to us on how proud you are that you defended your Uncle Bob's Bermuda grass from a homeless drunk.......

I think that expresses rather effectively the importance of weighing the upside potential with the downside risk. The guy in the yard has nothing to gain and everything to lose.

The fact that you have a gun doesn't give you less reason to avoid a confrontation, it gives you more reason for doing so.

Some people find that out the hard way.