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"Gun Show Loophole"
- Thread starter dayman
- Start date
BigD_in_FL
Moderator
y question is why - if it doesn't exist to begin with - are so many people opposed to closing this loophole
HUH?!?!? If it doesn't exist, how can it be closed?
It does NOT exist - period. Folks are free (in most states) to sell their private property to someone who wants to buy it. They are free to sell guns at garage sales - been there done that - through newspaper ads - again been there done that - or in the parking lot of ....(fill in the blank).
Some folks prefer to hit a target audience - those found at gun shows. no different than you taking your used car to a car show and trying to find a buyer, or your lawn equipment to a garden show, or any of a number of alternatives analogies
Justice06RR
New member
Peace of mind, which is probably worth more than $25 to you. The low likelihood of getting caught is mirrored by the unimaginable penalty if someone backtracks the gun to you for some reason and either of you mentions the terms of the sale.
Peace of mind can be free if you use a Bill of Sale when you sell any firearm. No need to pay $25 or whatever cost to the LGS. Keep records of all your firearm sales if you choose, and keep them in your home.
On that regard, even if a gun you previously owned was used a crime after you sold it to someone else, the court would have to prove you were in possesion of the gun and was there at the scene of the crime. Nothing to worry about if you actually aren't involved in the crime.
Same thing if you sell a car to a private individual. If later that week after you sell your car, the new owner does a felony with the vehicle (robbery etc), they have to prove you were driving it (which you won't be.)
Madcap_Magician
New member
There is a 'gun show loophole' that I wouldn't mind closing, but am generally also neutral toward.
I see some private sellers who are at every gun show in the state, all the time, always with a table full of guns, never the same guns, who actively buy and sell at the shows. They are not FFL holders, but 'private individuals selling their collection.'
This seems like an open dodge to me, as it appears to me that they meet the legal definition of a dealer, as they are in the regular business of buying and selling firearms, so it seems like they should have an FFL.
I know they're not an FFL because I've sold two guns and bought one from two of these non-dealer dealers.
I see some private sellers who are at every gun show in the state, all the time, always with a table full of guns, never the same guns, who actively buy and sell at the shows. They are not FFL holders, but 'private individuals selling their collection.'
This seems like an open dodge to me, as it appears to me that they meet the legal definition of a dealer, as they are in the regular business of buying and selling firearms, so it seems like they should have an FFL.
I know they're not an FFL because I've sold two guns and bought one from two of these non-dealer dealers.
Gun shows don't have anything to do with it. That's just what it's called because it sounds scary. Pretty much every guy selling guns from a table has (or needs!!!) an FFL and will conduct background checks. Sure, private sellers might bring a few guns in, but not that many.
What it really regulates is private sales of firearms.
Should you be able to sell a gun to someone without federal involvement? That's all it comes down to. Nothing more, nothing less.
What it really regulates is private sales of firearms.
Should you be able to sell a gun to someone without federal involvement? That's all it comes down to. Nothing more, nothing less.
I would agree that gun shows are not the problem.
Why can't they institute a simple fee (most sheriff's offices will run a background check for free but $2-$5 wouldn't be unreasonable) to run a back-ground check for individuals who want to buy? Get a dated receipt (have it good for 90 days or whatever) and signed/stamped by a local LEO or court-house; and then allow buyers to show that for any private, local purchase for the deal.
Some dealers charge outrageous fees for transfers but what’s to say fees can’t be forced upward of $100 or a large percent of the sale? Most agree $15-25 is reasonable, but that could be regulated to point of forcing sales back in the alleys. I have my local dealer do many transactions for me, but that is because they are shipped from out-of-state and his fees are reasonable. And vice-versa, I ship only to FFL dealers when I sell out of state. It’s always been “buyer-beware” and should remain that way. I would never purposely sell a firearm to a criminal, but if a local buyer showed a receipt where they ran a background check on themselves it would give me peace-of-mind.
Of course, that doesn't meet the need to track the gun, record addresses or document the transaction. That's the sticking point...it gives up control. NICS could be instituted the same way, just available for private citizens to ensure they are selling to someone who shouldn't have one. Does it stop straw-purchases? Nope, but that's already illegal for the purchaser and is what should be prosecuted as severely as any criminal owning or using a firearm in the act of a crime.
I just get sick of all the attention on the firearm (or accessories) and the complete lack of focus on the criminal or those that knowingly facilitate criminal activity.
ROCK6
Why can't they institute a simple fee (most sheriff's offices will run a background check for free but $2-$5 wouldn't be unreasonable) to run a back-ground check for individuals who want to buy? Get a dated receipt (have it good for 90 days or whatever) and signed/stamped by a local LEO or court-house; and then allow buyers to show that for any private, local purchase for the deal.
Some dealers charge outrageous fees for transfers but what’s to say fees can’t be forced upward of $100 or a large percent of the sale? Most agree $15-25 is reasonable, but that could be regulated to point of forcing sales back in the alleys. I have my local dealer do many transactions for me, but that is because they are shipped from out-of-state and his fees are reasonable. And vice-versa, I ship only to FFL dealers when I sell out of state. It’s always been “buyer-beware” and should remain that way. I would never purposely sell a firearm to a criminal, but if a local buyer showed a receipt where they ran a background check on themselves it would give me peace-of-mind.
Of course, that doesn't meet the need to track the gun, record addresses or document the transaction. That's the sticking point...it gives up control. NICS could be instituted the same way, just available for private citizens to ensure they are selling to someone who shouldn't have one. Does it stop straw-purchases? Nope, but that's already illegal for the purchaser and is what should be prosecuted as severely as any criminal owning or using a firearm in the act of a crime.
I just get sick of all the attention on the firearm (or accessories) and the complete lack of focus on the criminal or those that knowingly facilitate criminal activity.
ROCK6
Dr Big Bird PhD
New member
The only people that would go to a Gun Show are obviously potential criminals. We need to assume anyone that wants to buy a gun without government consent wants to hide what they are doing!
That varies from state to state, but you've got to transfer the title, which is a form of registration.Do we also make used car buyers get a license check and pay a fee for it before allowing them to buy a car from their next door neighbor?
That varies from state to state, but you've got to transfer the title, which is a form of registration.
Very true. But that occurs after the fact. Not before.
Romeo 33 Delta
New member
Madcap_Magician ... yes, while it is possible guys like this are skating on the edge, proving it is another matter.
Do you have any idea how many firearms a "serious" collector might accumulate in a 40+ year period? Selling off some portion or all of a collection might well be several 100s of firearms, some duplicates.
Over the years, I've purchased firearms at gun shows from dealers, always with a #4473 and a NICS check. Non-dealers, with as few a couple firearms to a couple dozen or more. I have to taken them at their word that it's their private arms being sold. I've also seen them at multiple shows over a number of years ... as well as a BATFE presence and have not seen the Feds giving them grief. Either they're too lazy to do their job or they're satisified.
Do you have any idea how many firearms a "serious" collector might accumulate in a 40+ year period? Selling off some portion or all of a collection might well be several 100s of firearms, some duplicates.
Over the years, I've purchased firearms at gun shows from dealers, always with a #4473 and a NICS check. Non-dealers, with as few a couple firearms to a couple dozen or more. I have to taken them at their word that it's their private arms being sold. I've also seen them at multiple shows over a number of years ... as well as a BATFE presence and have not seen the Feds giving them grief. Either they're too lazy to do their job or they're satisified.
I am also a person that does not frequent gun shows, but I make a habit of understadning the law in my state (WA) and neighboring states I may be in.
In OR, there is no "gun show loophole" The state legislature closed that years ago. However, private sales, between private parties are unregulated.
There is a section in the law that you "MAY" follow, that will allow a private person doing a private sale (not a a gun show) that allows for the private person to have a BGC done on the purchaser, and the purchaser "MAY" do a stolen items check on the weapon. These are not required, but they are available.
Here in WA, if the gun show allows (some here do not) a private person can sell at a gun show, or privately, without license, BGC, or stolen weapons check. As I have stated, some of the gun show sponsers will not allow private individuals to sell firearms at their shows, but it is not state law. WA also has a "report of sale" available for private transactions, if the seller wishes to use this, but the state's real interest is in collecting their sales/use tax, not regulating or registering weapons.
In OR, there is no "gun show loophole" The state legislature closed that years ago. However, private sales, between private parties are unregulated.
There is a section in the law that you "MAY" follow, that will allow a private person doing a private sale (not a a gun show) that allows for the private person to have a BGC done on the purchaser, and the purchaser "MAY" do a stolen items check on the weapon. These are not required, but they are available.
Here in WA, if the gun show allows (some here do not) a private person can sell at a gun show, or privately, without license, BGC, or stolen weapons check. As I have stated, some of the gun show sponsers will not allow private individuals to sell firearms at their shows, but it is not state law. WA also has a "report of sale" available for private transactions, if the seller wishes to use this, but the state's real interest is in collecting their sales/use tax, not regulating or registering weapons.
I have worked the door at a local gun show, and at those in order to sell a firearm from your table you must have an FFL, just the show rules, we asked people who came in as customers if they were carrying a concealed firearm and if so they had the choice of unloading and allowing us to safe it, usually by installation of a zip tie so it would not function, or return it to their vehicle, again it was the show rules, we put a sticker on guns they wanted to sell/trade and zip tied them also, vendors were required to put a different color sticker on one being sold, no names or serial #'s were taken. We tried to provide a minimum of security and in reality it was the vendors responsibility to keep an eye on their stock. Others I have been to the "paperwork" consisted of me handing them money and them handing me the firearm, I have also filled out many 4473's at gun shows. If a FFL dealer has a particular firearm listed as part of his inventory then it requires a 4473, if it is his personally owned firearm then he can transfer it just like we are in his house. There has been a few semi-local gun shops that were raided for carrying the majority of their firearms as "personal property" and not FFL inventory. At least that was the best explanation I could get from them. As for private sales I know of no way they could do anything more than provide a wild guess as to how many are bought & sold privately. Since there is no paperwork there is no way to know, sort of like guessing how many loads of firewood are sold, so any number given for private sales would be iffy at best.
Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret
New member
Private Sale at Gun Show
Is it frowned upon to go into the actual gun show with a firearm and a For Sale sign in a state where it is unregulated (WI)? Should that person stay outside near the door?
Is it frowned upon to go into the actual gun show with a firearm and a For Sale sign in a state where it is unregulated (WI)? Should that person stay outside near the door?
Spats McGee
Administrator
They do the same thing in Arkansas. For long guns, some guys will even create a small sign like a flag that has the kind of gun and the price. Put the stick that holds the flag down the barrel, and everyone can see what it is and what you're asking without having to bother the seller.
Cuomo's "safe act" common sense law is duplication of effort for pistol permit holders in NY. We already have been schooled,fingerprinted,pictured,logged and had an extensive background check. Why would another background check be required? (the guns and permit are confiscated if arrested for DWI,serious misdemeanor or felony,that's if "arrested,not after being convicted)
And more common sense with the "7" rule. 7 rounds in an 8 round revolver but..A person can load 7 into a mag,cycle the action,drop the mag and insert another #7...and viola...8 rounds.
And more common sense with the "7" rule. 7 rounds in an 8 round revolver but..A person can load 7 into a mag,cycle the action,drop the mag and insert another #7...and viola...8 rounds.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
There was a guy around here in San Antonio, who consistently had two rifles and a few pistols in his belt and the sign in the rifles. Haven't seen him for a bit and I vaguely recall he was spoken to.
Just based on my experience... anybody walking around a gunshow with one on their shoulder is selling it. The one time I bought a gun at a gunshow, I had the seller stick it under the table so I could pick it up on my way out the door so I didn't have to carry it around.. I'm assuming I'm like everybody else, and I can't see why anybody would want to hump a 26" double-barrel around on their shoulder for 3 hours while they did the rest of their shopping.
Of course this is a moot point in states with waiting periods, but in the normal states, I think it's 99% safe to assume a guy with a gun on his shoulder is selling it.
And while I understand there's a certain amount of "etiquette" involved, I often see dealers buy guns off guys carrying them around in the crowd... business is business.
Of course this is a moot point in states with waiting periods, but in the normal states, I think it's 99% safe to assume a guy with a gun on his shoulder is selling it.
And while I understand there's a certain amount of "etiquette" involved, I often see dealers buy guns off guys carrying them around in the crowd... business is business.
ScottRiqui
New member
Is it frowned upon to go into the actual gun show with a firearm and a For Sale sign in a state where it is unregulated (WI)? Should that person stay outside near the door?
My opinion is that it's fine to conduct private sales on the show floor as long as you don't:
1) Interrupt a conversation between a buyer and a dealer to try to sell the buyer *your* gun instead.
2) If another private seller is trying to sell a gun to a dealer, don't jump in with an offer on the gun until the dealer has declined and turned the seller away.