Good Article on the Israeli Carry Method
- Thread starter JDBerg
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You are not equipping an army. If you do not feel your gun is safe in condition 1 because it is not drop safe or the trigger pull is too short or light buy a different gun. Manual safety, da, external hammer, whatever. There are a myriad of choices out there. Still want to carry in condition 3? Your call. But no it is not faster. Yes it requires two hands. Comparing yourself to highly trained operatives of one particular military force? As long as you have undergone their training feel free
It's the same rationale behind carrying a modern DAO type semi-auto with the chamber empty to prevent a discharge if the trigger is pulled unintentionally. If a person is carrying empty chamber to prevent the gun from firing when the trigger is pulled, then for a semi-auto DAO type pistol, the chamber would be empty--but for a DA revolver, the next chamber (not the one directly under the hammer) would be empty since that's the one that would fire if the trigger were pulled.
Jim Watson
New member
Saw that on the 1970s TV 'Police Story'.
Sarge tells rookie: "Of course you keep the chamber under the hammer empty, but leave the next one up empty, too. That way, if somebody grabs your gun, it won't go off the first try and you will have time to draw your backup."
Sarge tells rookie: "Of course you keep the chamber under the hammer empty, but leave the next one up empty, too. That way, if somebody grabs your gun, it won't go off the first try and you will have time to draw your backup."
Bartholomew Roberts, you said:
I trust your veracity but that seems odd that the fellow had his gun in a drawer with no round chambered, retrieved it, chambered a round, then put the safety on (!) for some reason, then tried to shoot the robber, forgetting he had just put the safety on, and then looked at his pistol and was shot. I thought a main point of leaving the chamber empty was to not rely on the safety. It appears what cost him his life was not the empty chamber, but the improper handling of the safety. He seemed to select the worst of both worlds.
I trust your veracity but that seems odd that the fellow had his gun in a drawer with no round chambered, retrieved it, chambered a round, then put the safety on (!) for some reason, then tried to shoot the robber, forgetting he had just put the safety on, and then looked at his pistol and was shot. I thought a main point of leaving the chamber empty was to not rely on the safety. It appears what cost him his life was not the empty chamber, but the improper handling of the safety. He seemed to select the worst of both worlds.
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Glenn E. Meyer
New member
If he was taught or practiced, putting on the safety after chambering, that muscle memory is the culprit.
The whole issue boils down, as said before, to the competency of the user. Let's stop dancing around that.
I get that most folks with CHL, CCW creds, never train beyond the state mandated courses and if practice, it's usually some rounds on the square range or at the 'ranch'. No reps with drawing the gun.
They have to decide if they risk not getting the gun into play if quick response is needed vs. shooting themselves.
I prefer to reduce the latter through competence. The choice is the user's.
The positives in unchambered carry are in contrived situations or in military usage. For a civilian SD carry mode, it's more likely a handicap.
If the trigger pull scares you, you can find DAO semis, DA/SA guns or revolvers. With the latter, whether you have a round ready to go on the trigger pull depends on your evaluation of your competency.
The whole issue boils down, as said before, to the competency of the user. Let's stop dancing around that.
I get that most folks with CHL, CCW creds, never train beyond the state mandated courses and if practice, it's usually some rounds on the square range or at the 'ranch'. No reps with drawing the gun.
They have to decide if they risk not getting the gun into play if quick response is needed vs. shooting themselves.
I prefer to reduce the latter through competence. The choice is the user's.
The positives in unchambered carry are in contrived situations or in military usage. For a civilian SD carry mode, it's more likely a handicap.
If the trigger pull scares you, you can find DAO semis, DA/SA guns or revolvers. With the latter, whether you have a round ready to go on the trigger pull depends on your evaluation of your competency.
As I recall in this case condition three had nothing to do with it. The Glock was stored in a backpack several yards away from where the two men were skinning a bear. Two bears ran up on them and attacked the man who owned the Glock. The other man than ran to the back pack, got the Glock, but knew nothing about the gun and did not know why it would not fire.
https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/environmental/article_c17c97cb-c2f0-5476-aa08-17301f75343d.html
So to me, hard to blame condition 3. It's more the fault of the poor choices the guide made, and the second fella made with his bear spray.
The decision by Uptain to carry condition 3 in his back pack isn't the problem either. That's not a bad choice in and of itself, it's an option. But once they, were actively tracking a bleeding animal in bear country the gun should have been ready. Once they found the animal and decided to skin and butcher it there, the 10 mm Glock should have been at hand and made ready in condition 2 and on your hip. Same as the decision of the other fella to leave his bear spray in his back pack. Poor choices.
tipoc
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
How do you put a Glock in condition 2?
Double Naught Spy
New member
Because it was in Condition 3. Had it been in Condition 1, it would have fired just fine. Had it been in Condition 2, the pair would have been no better off because the Glock would have been broken.
Condition three wasn't the issue. I explained the issues.
The guide had the gun in his backpack yards away from him as he butchered a deer in bear country.
His partner was a bowhunter and did not have a firearm. His bear spray was in his backpack also yards away. The guide made a decision to not show the bow hunter how to make ready the Glock.
All the two had on them to protect themselves was one can of bear spray against two charging bears.
The problem was that the extra bear spray and the Glock were in two separate backpacks yards away, and not ready to go and on their persons. The Glock should have been made ready by loading a round in the chamber prior to gutting the deer.
tipoc
If you have ever heard of Col Cooper's color coded conditions of awarenwss you would probably believe the Israili LE and military are probably in a permanent state of "Condition Yellow"...this is a mental readiness condition and not a firearm's condition....condition Yellow is being constantly aware of your surroundings...I think M. Ayoob compared it to the way a person mental state SHOULD be when driving a car... BEWARE THE OTHER DRIVERS!!! 
This mental state should have as much to do with defending yourself as the condition of your weapon.
This mental state should have as much to do with defending yourself as the condition of your weapon.
Rangerrich99
New member
Wow, you guys like to get into the minutiae.
Here's what we need to know:
There was a deadly situation.
The gun was stored where both men knew where it was.
The gun was in C-3.
When the attack occurred, one of the men went for the gun but was confused by it being in C-3, and was unable to make it fire.
This confusion caused the man to throw the gun at the bear, rendering it ineffective for the remainder of the incident.
If the gun had been a revolver or a DA/SA, or simply been in C-1, it would've fired. Whether that would've saved the other man's life is a matter of debate. But it would've fired.
Everything else is just window dressing.
Here's what we need to know:
There was a deadly situation.
The gun was stored where both men knew where it was.
The gun was in C-3.
When the attack occurred, one of the men went for the gun but was confused by it being in C-3, and was unable to make it fire.
This confusion caused the man to throw the gun at the bear, rendering it ineffective for the remainder of the incident.
If the gun had been a revolver or a DA/SA, or simply been in C-1, it would've fired. Whether that would've saved the other man's life is a matter of debate. But it would've fired.
Everything else is just window dressing.
Not so...
"Everything else" was the critical part. That the fella did not know how to use a Glock in a panic friendly atmosphere is just a part of a picture of lack of foresight and elementary awareness. That the piece was left in condition 3 is inside a backpack 5-10 yards away ain't exactly "minutia".
Your up to your elbows in blood and guts, in the bears kitchen, with no gun on you, extra bear spray in another back pack, and the gun in a separate backpack. The problem wasn't what condition the gun was in.
tipoc
"Everything else" was the critical part. That the fella did not know how to use a Glock in a panic friendly atmosphere is just a part of a picture of lack of foresight and elementary awareness. That the piece was left in condition 3 is inside a backpack 5-10 yards away ain't exactly "minutia".
Your up to your elbows in blood and guts, in the bears kitchen, with no gun on you, extra bear spray in another back pack, and the gun in a separate backpack. The problem wasn't what condition the gun was in.
tipoc
Rangerrich99
New member
Ah, those are contradictory statements.
However that aside, you obviously are bent on believing what you want to believe, and I don't have a dog in this anyway, so have at it.
Double Naught Spy
New member
But even not knowing anything more than he knew, had the gun NOT been in condition 3, it would have fired when he pulled the trigger to shoot the bear. So that was a very real problem that occurred at the time.
He pulled the trigger and it did not go BANG. It did not go BANG because it was in condition 3.
He pulled the trigger and it did not go BANG. It did not go BANG because it was in condition 3.
As I said and the facts show, it did not matter what condition the gun was in. By the time they needed it, and the bowhunter got to it, a man was the walking dead. That was not due to the condition of the gun but to their lack of preparation for what they were doing and the dangers involved.
They made a decision not the have the gun ready at hand and with a round in the chamber, ready to shoot. But instead to leave it in a backpack 5-10 yards away. They made a decision that the only gun they had only one man was familiar with and not the man who grabbed it. That was a part of their errors.
A string of errors led to the death of a man. The condition of the gun was only a part of that, and a small part.
The official reports on the guides death mentioned some of this and other aspects of the tragedy.
That some don't get that...means something.
tipoc
They made a decision not the have the gun ready at hand and with a round in the chamber, ready to shoot. But instead to leave it in a backpack 5-10 yards away. They made a decision that the only gun they had only one man was familiar with and not the man who grabbed it. That was a part of their errors.
A string of errors led to the death of a man. The condition of the gun was only a part of that, and a small part.
The official reports on the guides death mentioned some of this and other aspects of the tragedy.
That some don't get that...means something.
tipoc
So then it did matter. If it was a part of it then it did matter.
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