Good Article on the Israeli Carry Method

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The real issue is having an arm out of action as compared to draw speed in a range environment speeded test. It's that simple.

The arm might be injured, tied up by opponent, have to direct a kid, carry a kid, holding a light, or all other contingencies.

Having spent a significant time one handed and having trained in one handed manipulation, my risk matrix decides that I have sufficient ability not to shoot myself as compared not to having the gun in action when needed in extremis.

 

[Lohman446]

I’m with Glenn on this one. The consideration of the 21 foot rule is not that your draw time must be faster it’s that you better have a plan beyond just drawing. Chances are, if I must use my firearm, the situational will develop within a couple yards of me. 1.5 seconds vs 1.2 seconds isn’t going to matter much if my only course of action is to draw and fire. I want my off hand available to defend myself or throw a punch. Maybe I get lucky, my attacker has a glass jaw, and my gun barely clears leather. If I must cycle the slide I must have two hands (ok I can snag the rear sight on my belt but I’m not going to bet on that when we are already engaged). My concern is less about time though I cannot believe, given equal practice, an added step is quicker. My concern is about needing a relatively complex action

I get some advantage to the idea if practiced. I understand that. But let’s not use separate samples of divergently trained individuals to force some conclusion that adding an action to a sequence is quicker. It lacks any resemblance of face validity.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Another point, there is a discussion among folks who are rather professional and analyzed real incidents that it may be necessary to discretely draw a handgun rather than cowboy, face off shoot out that folks are discussing here.

With the need to raise the gun to rack it, the discrete approach is very difficult. This also indicates, that the speed focus is not always the crucial variable.

Google "disguising the draw" to see the relevant points.

I also suggest that the Israeli carry folks take some FOF training with simulated urban incidents in close quarters to see if it is practical.

For example, you get into an altercation with an enraged person in a store. You might want to be ready to engage your gun and draw it, but conceal it behind your back. If you have to draw and rack, you increase the tension in the scenario and make your gun visible before necessary.

If you cannot handle your gun safely, get one you can or practice till you can.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

It still comes down to practice and proficiency.

At the indoor range where I do most of my shooting, for many years we had informal combat shoots (sort of a cross between IDPA and IPSC) on Thursday nights. One of the most competitive shooters was a young man whose left arm was amputated above the elbow. He shot a single action 1911 (not that there's any other kind of 1911), and was able to perform the full manual of arms with only one hand and one and a half arms.

I'm not recommending carry in condition 3. I carry 1911s, in condition 1. But the Israelis have their reasons, and it demonstrates that in most circumstances the empty chamber isn't the complete deal breaker that it's often regarded as. It all comes down to practice and training.

 

[tipoc]

It's a good and useful article.

It's hard for folks to see that until the post war period carrying a 1911, or BHP, in condition one was rare. Condition one was a battle field expedient and in general not a preferred mode of carry when not in a fight or expecting one. The evolution of the role of handguns post war in law enforcement, the military and especially changes in competitive shooting helped propel it's rise.

Jeff Cooper created the names for Condition One, Two and Three. He used all three depending on the circumstances.

tipoc

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, if you think you are more likely to shoot yourself than an attacker with a particular set-up, then by all means carry with an empty chamber.

It would be interesting to see if the 0.4 second difference in DNS’s link increased even more with a cover garment to clear.

And of course, the real trick is you need two hands available and I can give you several anecdotes of gunfights that didn’t happen that way.

 

[manta49]

Take advice and then carry it what ever way you feel comfortable with, its you carrying it not them.

 

[Chui]

I carry a pistol nearly always. I'm not afraid of people, but I understand that there are dangerous people and I prefer not to be a victim.



I have not trained with the Israelis. I do know that increasing complexity increases my chances of making a mistake. A mistake in a deadly encounter sounds bad to me. I'll take my chances with a loaded handgun.



Glenn I haven't made it to the mountains, but they are on the horizon.

This!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JohnKSa]

One thing to keep in mind is that how tests are set up can have a significant impact in how the results are interpreted.

Let's say we have two shooters with exactly identical skills who will compete to provide us data points.

Scenario 1.
The two shooters will compete on a complicated stage with 10 paper targets requiring 2 shots each, 5 falling steel targets and one Texas Star. 3 mandatory reloads are required and the shooter must traverse a distance of 25 yards in the course of shooting the stage.

One will start from Condition 3 in the holster and the other will start from Condition 1.

After both shooters have sent about 35-45 rounds downrange and the scoring is over, we find they both shot identical splits and had identical hits. Our condition 1 shooter managed to shoot the stage in 25.3 seconds with 3 more seconds added for penalties for a total score of 28.3. Our condition 3 shooter was 0.5 seconds slower getting his gun into action initially but everything else was the same--resulting in a total score of 28.8.

So the difference is that the Condition 3 shooter took just a hair under 2% longer to complete the stage.

Scenario 2
The two shooters will draw and fire 3 shots on a single target 3 yards away.

After both shooters have performed, the Condition 1 shooter manages the feat in 2 seconds. The Condition 3 shooter is, once again, 0.5 seconds slower due to the extra manipulation required for a score of 2.5 seconds.

Now the difference is that the Condition 3 shooter took 25% longer to accomplish the required task.

Scenario 3
The two shooters will draw and fire a single shot on a single target 3 yards away.

Our Condition 1 shooter manages to accomplish this in 1.5 seconds, the Condition 3 shooter takes half a second longer--just as in the previous 2 tests.

Now the difference is that the Condition 3 shooter took 33% longer to complete the task.

Thoughts
Which of those three scenarios actually tells us the most about the difference in the two techniques? The one where the test results only include the time from the timer to the first shot on target, or the one where there are another 40 shots or so, movement and reloads after the first shot is fired?

When designing a test to determine the differences in two approaches, the goal should be to keep the test as simple as possible so ONLY the differences in the two approaches are being measured. Adding in a lot of other factors having nothing to do with the issue actually being explored dilutes the results and can make incorrect conclusions much more likely.

More to think about...
Scenario 4
At the timer, the shooter grabs a prone 150lb dummy that simulates an injured family member, and while dragging the dummy to cover, must draw and engage a single target at 10 yards with a single shot.

Scenario 5
The shooter must keep one arm raised above his head during the exercise to simulate shielding the head against downward blows from a contact weapon. At the timer, the shooter must draw and engage a single target at contact distance.

Determining the likely results of these last two scenarios are left as thought experiments for the reader.

 

[Rangerrich99]

"More to think about...
Scenario 4
At the timer, the shooter grabs a prone 150lb dummy that simulates an injured family member, and while dragging the dummy to cover, must draw and engage a single target at 10 yards with a single shot.

Scenario 5
The shooter must keep one arm raised above his head during the exercise to simulate shielding the head against downward blows from a contact weapon. At the timer, the shooter must draw and engage a single target at contact distance.

Determining the likely results of these last two scenarios are left as thought experiments for the reader."

I've had to draw my pistol twice one-handed (fortunately didn't have to fire in one instance and never had to fire at a person). It's for this reason that I could never carry in Condition 3. If that situation had occurred just slightly differently I would've been standing there holding an essentially empty weapon and likely would've been seriously injured/killed and possibly my fiance as well.

Also, I've taken more than a 20 training classes and I've seen a few people attempt to use the Israeli method during drills. I've never seen one that could execute a draw from concealment, rack the slide, and fire an aimed round into the A-box at 7 yards in less than 1.5 seconds, much less 1.2 seconds.

From Condition 1 I can regularly execute the drill in 0.95 seconds, give or take about 0.1 seconds.

I'm not saying it can't be done in 1.2 seconds, but I'm guessing that most people, with the average degree of training I see in classes regularly, probably couldn't meet that standard. I'm 90% certain I couldn't do it consistently, and I'm neither highly trained nor highly skilled. My instructors tell me that I'm "above average" skill-wise. Which I take to mean that I'm better than most of the people one regularly sees trying to hit a barn door at your typical range.

 

[manta49]

I have not trained with the Israelis. I do know that increasing complexity increases my chances of making a mistake. A mistake in a deadly encounter sounds bad to me. I'll take my chances with a loaded handgun.

And most people that accidentally shoot themselves or someone else obviously had a round in the chamber. I could post lots of incidents of people shooting themselves in incidents of holstering etc, a firearm with a round in the chamber. You could put that down to poor training, but i wonder how many people that are being advised to carry a firearm with a round in the chamber have the experience and training to do that safely.

 

[Lohman446]

I could post lots of incidents of people shooting themselves in incidents of holstering etc, a firearm with a round in the chamber. You could put that down to poor training, but i wonder how many people that are being advised to carry a firearm with a round in the chamber have the experience and training to do that safely.

The same logic could hold that the people inadequately trained to carry a loaded firearm are inadequately trained to carry any firearm. Hard to shoot yourself without a gun. Carrying in condition 3, and effectively employing the firearm if needed, likely requires more training. Personally I question if some of the people carrying a firearm have adequate retention abilities to carry a firearm. But if we start a conversation along those lines it works against us.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Research has shown that approximately 1% of the carry population has any training beyond the mandated state class- if there is one. So for the Israeli carry folks who fear they will pull the trigger - if you carry a revolver, do you have the cylinder chamber that will rotate under the hammer with a trigger pull empty? Human factors research shows that a screw up will pull a revolver trigger as well as a semi.

 

[K_Mac]

Manta49 people negligently discharge a weapon because of failure to follow proper safety practices. We've already covered this. Someone without the training, practice and common sense to follow good safety practices cannot safely carry a gun regardless of condition. Once the Israeli conscript has a round chambered he better have the training and experience to handle it safely or he is a threat to himself and everyone else. Blaming the gun for unsafe behavior is not reasonable.

The very real chance that only one hand will be available in a deadly encounter is reason enough to find a workable method of carrying a loaded handgun. The chance of short stroking a pistol when chambering a round in the heat of the moment is another. Add the additional time need to put a round on target and condition 3 is not a good option for most of us in my opinion.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Got another question. So after you draw and rack, tell me how you reholster ? Can’t just stick the gun back in as it is now chambered?

 

[JohnKSa]

i wonder how many people that are being advised to carry a firearm with a round in the chamber have the experience and training to do that safely.

So far I haven't really advised anyone to do anything other than to think about the issue and the information available on the topic from a logical perspective.

There are certainly some circumstances under which I would carry with an empty chamber. The ones I can think of off the top of my head are:

1. If I were going to carry a handgun without a manual safety without putting it in a holster that covers and protects the trigger, I would carry it with an empty chamber.

2. If I were going to carry a handgun that didn't have internal passive safeties to prevent the firearm from discharging when dropped or struck and the handgun were going to be carried in anything other than a flap holster with some sort of closure/retention method for the flap, I would carry it with an empty chamber.

3. If I were going to openly carry a handgun in public without using a retention holster, I would carry it with an empty chamber AND with a backup concealed handgun (carried WITH a chambered round) that I could draw immediately if someone were to grab my primary handgun.

4. If I were not willing to do at least a minimal amount of "dry" holster practice on a regular basis to insure good familiarity with correct drawing and reholstering techniques, I would not carry with a chambered round. More likely I just wouldn't carry at all under those circumstances.

 

[manta49]

The very real chance that only one hand will be available in a deadly encounter is reason enough to find a workable method of carrying a loaded handgun. The chance of short stroking a pistol when chambering a round in the heat of the moment is another. Add the additional time need to put a round on target and condition 3 is not a good option for most of us in my opinion.

I am not saying the Israeli carry is the way to go at all times in all circumstances, but it is a option in certain circumstances. Some examples in post 36. Its the my way or no way paper weight etc argument i have a issue with. My view would be proper safety training that would allow a individual to carry safely in whatever way the chose to carry.

 

[jonnyc]

"Got another question. So after you draw and rack, tell me how you reholster ? Can’t just stick the gun back in as it is now chambered?"

Uh.......just the same way you would re-holster any pistol with a round chambered. The Israeli Method doesn't deal with that issue differently than any other method of presentation.

 

[manta49]

jonnyc
Senior Member

"Got another question. So after you draw and rack, tell me how you reholster ? Can’t just stick the gun back in as it is now chambered?"

Uh.......just the same way you would re-holster any pistol with a round chambered. The Israeli Method doesn't deal with that issue differently than any other method of presentation.

Could you not just unload it before holstering it if you wanted.

 

[agtman]

I also suggest that the Israeli carry folks take some FOF training with simulated urban incidents in close quarters to see if it is practical.
For example, you get into an altercation with an enraged person in a store. You might want to be ready to engage your gun and draw it, but conceal it behind your back. If you have to draw and rack, you increase the tension in the scenario and make your gun visible before necessary.

Pretty much agree.

The unchambered-round carry method for Mil groups or L.E. is one thing, but what might work for them - in the 'unit' or collective context as part of a larger training ritual - can be impractical for civilians for immediate defense of self or family.

To me, the biggest downside, even if you repeatedly practice drawing and chambering dummy rounds to get the 'move' and 'flow' down pat, is that it inserts an additional gross movement that consumes time - sure, maybe only a second or two - but that's still time you may not have in a close-up and rapidly-evolving violent encounter. It slows your present ability to engage the attacker with DF where it's warranted.

Of course, we're also talking about semi-auto pistols here. What about the popular 5- or 6-shot J-frame snubby revolvers a lot of folks carry?

Does anyone carry one with the hammer down over an empty cylinder, thereby rendering it a 4- or 5-shot wheelgun?