Glock 17 vs. H&K USP 9mm: a brief personal comparison

[Uncle Malice]

That's the new steel framed polymer coated jet funnel mag. I got it from HKPARTS when they first came out. They are quite expensive at around $90/ea. But I would bet it's the strongest magazine of any gun on the market. It's crazy solid... it's also a bit heavy.

For the money, I would(and have) just gone ahead and gotten a few of the traditional all polymer jet funnel mags with the translucent white color. They are lighter, cheaper, and mine have all been perfectly reliable as well. They run about $50/ea.

 

[Oruglock]

Thanks sigarms228, yes it was a USP Expert. My Glock was a basic Glock with no bells or whistles added.

I had a chance to play with a few handguns at a local pawnshop, including a H&K USP, and had a long chat with the guys serving (I used to work with one of them). I hadn't had a chance to see the HK field stripped before, and I was surprised how tricky it was. Obviously you get used to it with practise, but I feel that Glock reset the bar for simplicity of field stripping (or is there an earlier design that's as simple?), and everything designed after that that is more complicated to field strip has failed that test for me.

The M&P line are as easy as a Glock to field strip, have an optional thumb safety, and the palmswell interchangeable grips are generally more comfortable than the Glock 2x4 grip, so I feel they did a good job of taking lessons from Glock and adding to them.

 

[TunnelRat]

I had a chance to play with a few handguns at a local pawnshop, including a H&K USP, and had a long chat with the guys serving (I used to work with one of them). I hadn't had a chance to see the HK field stripped before, and I was surprised how tricky it was. Obviously you get used to it with practise, but I feel that Glock reset the bar for simplicity of field stripping (or is there an earlier design that's as simple?), and everything designed after that that is more complicated to field strip has failed that test for me

The difference is pushing out a pin instead of pulling down on levers. Not what I'd call tricky. Harder? Maybe. Sort of like adding 10+12 is harder than adding 3+4.

 

[Uncle Malice]

I was surprised how tricky it was

Hrmph. Perhaps the person didn't know what they were doing? It's really just pulling the slide back a little(just as on a Glock), and pulling out the take down pin/slide stop lever vs pulling down on the Glock tabs. Then the slide just comes off instead of having to pull the trigger as you would on the Glock.

I'm not sure that I understand what you found tricky about it.

 

[Oruglock]

Hrmph. Perhaps the person didn't know what they were doing?

In truth the guy did look like he was fumbling a bit, and admitted he's a Glock guy, not a H&K guy. Amusingly he was wearing a Glock polo shirt (black with white Glock logo on the left breast) and the next gunshop I went in, the guy there was wearing an identical shirt. That's good marketing.

Pulling a pin out and having to line thing up right again to put it back in is trickier than just twitching the slide back and pulling or flipping a lever, that's all I'm referring to. It's an extra piece to keep track of, and have to realign when reassembling. The recoil spring was also misbehaving, but that may just have been the guy's cack-handling.

I'm imagining a scenario where you need to field strip and reassemble in the dark and rain, possibly with bullets flying round your ears. What's easier, 1911 or Glock? What's easier, H&K or Glock?

 

[TunnelRat]

I'm imagining a scenario where you need to field strip and reassemble in the dark and rain, possibly with bullets flying round your ears. What's easier, 1911 or Glock? What's easier, H&K or Glock?

Man, that's a hell of a scenario.

We used to fight wars with 1911s. Talk about a disassembly process.

I can't deny it's more "complicated". But again to me it's a matter of scale. I don't think the difference is significant. YMMV.

 

[brmfan]

Function trumps form

I have had Glocks over the years in 9mm, 40, and 45acp, and they were just as reliable as my USP Tactical 45. Accuracy, however, definitely went to the HK. For me the bottom line was if I ever had to use it to defend myself or family, I want rapid second hammer strike capability in case a round failed to fire. While infrequent, pulling the trigger only to hear a 'click' instead of 'boom' has happened enough times with premium factory ammo over the years to be the #1 deciding factor for me. Striker fired pistols are just not an option if I'm going to bet the farm on it 110%. That's one big reason why I recently sold my G23 & G30 and picked up another USP 45. That and the recoil reduction system is awesome! And I have pretty big hands so the takedown bar on the HK is WAY easier for me to use than trying to press down the tiny lever on the Glock.

 

[KShaft]

"The USP is a timeless design. Is it a little bulky? Yes... but so is a humvee. Would you rather have a porsche or a humvee if you were going into battle?"

Anybody who has actually driven a Hummer in combat ops would take the ****ing porsche everytime.

"Hey TST time, somebody grab the 959!"

Oh yeah....

 

[jr24]

While infrequent, pulling the trigger only to hear a 'click' instead of 'boom' has happened enough times with premium factory ammo over the years to be the #1 deciding factor for me.

I've never seen this so I don't know. How many of those rounds actually fired on a second strike? Was it a light striker hit, something gumming up the hammer, bad primer?

2nd strike is great, don't get me wrong, but I often wonder if it'll really make that "click" go "Boom" instead of "click, again".

Were I in that situation I'd like to believe I've trained enough with failures to clear the possibly bad round ASAP instead of monkeying with a second strike. But heat of the moment and all that.

 

[dgludwig]

DA/SA will always feel more natural to me than a striker fired trigger because of how I learned to shoot and the amount of time I have with that system. I just shoot it better, even after my stint with every striker pistol I could get my hands on.

Same here. Which is not to say that if I invested as much time with a striker-fired pistol as I have with a da/sa pistol that I might not come back with a different opinion. Not bloody likely though...

 

[stephen426]

@brmfan,

For me the bottom line was if I ever had to use it to defend myself or family, I want rapid second hammer strike capability in case a round failed to fire. While infrequent, pulling the trigger only to hear a 'click' instead of 'boom' has happened enough times with premium factory ammo over the years to be the #1 deciding factor for me. Striker fired pistols are just not an option if I'm going to bet the farm on it 110%. That's one big reason why I recently sold my G23 & G30 and picked up another USP 45. That and the recoil reduction system is awesome! And I have pretty big hands so the takedown bar on the HK is WAY easier for me to use than trying to press down the tiny lever on the Glock.

No offense, but think about your rationale. How many officers ever go through their entire careers without ever getting into a gun fight. Private citizens are much less likely (assuming you aren't looking for trouble) to get into a shootout. Even if you get into a shootout, what are the chances of getting a round that doesn't fire? Even if you get a round that doesn't fire, what are the chances that a second strike will set it off? If the second strike doesn't set off the round, you will still have to rack the slide manually. If you are that concerned about dud rounds hurting your odds in a gun fight, then a strong argument can be made for revolvers, since pulling the trigger again takes the questionable round out of the equation. Maybe I should carry a portable oxygen tank in my car in case I crash and go into body of water, or in case a tsunami or flash flood hits and covers my car. Maybe I should base my car buying decisions on which has better buoyancy.

You are obviously free to buy and carry whatever gun you like, but your rationale is pretty weak. There are so may great little carry guns out there that are striker fired and eliminating them for lack of second strike capability would be such a shame, especially when it may not make a difference at all anyways!

Now one feature of striker fired guns that makes a difference (for me anyways) is a lighter, consistent trigger pull. For me, I have more of a tendency to pull the gun to the side with a long heavy double action trigger. I believe in being accountable for every round that leave my guns. Pulling a shot due to the trigger increases my chances of missing my target and possibly hitting an innocent bystander. The other thing to consider is that the first person to get a good shot on their target greatly improves their odds of winning the gun fight. That is why I like Glock's "Safe-Action" triggers.

 

[AK103K]

If the second strike doesn't set off the round, you will still have to rack the slide manually.

The correct response to a click, instead of a boom, is a TRB. Anything else, is simply time wasting, and time youre not likely to have to spare.

"Second strike" is another one of those things that falls under "marketing". It sounds good in theory, but just doesnt play out well in real life.

For me, I have more of a tendency to pull the gun to the side with a long heavy double action trigger.

Thats simply a familiarity/practice issue. Time spent shooting DAO, be it a revolver or auto, is time very well spent, and and pays dividends across all the different firearms types, not just handguns. When you hear someone complain about triggers, its generally not a fault of the the gun or a shortcoming of the gun.

If you shoot a DA auto, 99% of your practice should be DA. All you need, is your gun and a snap cap, and you can practice it endlessly in dry fire. Thats really the only time "second strike" capability is worth something.

 

[tomrkba]

Would you rather have a porsche or a humvee if you were going into battle?

Porsche. I can swap it for a tank if the right people are involved.

 

[brmfan]

"Second strike" is another one of those things that falls under "marketing". It sounds good in theory, but just doesnt play out well in real life.

TRB should be practiced, but most 'duds' I've run across were simply primers that were seated a bit too high or were very hard. Almost all fired after a second hit. It also takes a fraction of a second to pull the trigger again on a DA pistol. If it's still a no-go you aren't loosing any time going with TRB as the next step.
And what's to say your other hand/ arm isn't injured or in other use and unable to perform a TRB?

 

[AK103K]

TRB should be practiced, but most 'duds' I've run across were simply primers that were seated a bit too high or were very hard.

Other than .22's, 99% of the rounds Ive come across that didnt fire the first time, didnt fire the second time they were struck. Even the .22's usually need to be removed and the strike relocated.

Youre just wasting precious time pulling the trigger again. You need to ingrain proper responses, not start winging things.

And what's to say your other hand/ arm isn't injured or in other use and unable to perform a TRB?

Youre most likely in the same boat.

Chances are, the odds of an injured hand in a gunfight, are higher than a dud.

 

[brmfan]

Broken wrist/ arm in a cast (been there), holding onto someone to shield or some thing to maintain balance, support a barrier, or hold a light... Your other appendage may already be indisposed for many reasons other than being injured in a gun fight.

 

[Oruglock]

Chiming in on the TRB vs second strike discussion, it would seem sensible to me to practise TRB because it works with ANY semi-auto, whereas re-pulling the trigger only works on SOME semi-autos.

If you find yourself in situation where you are firing an unfamiliar gun, having one method for clearing a problem is better than having to choose between two.

If you have one hand/arm out of action, most slides can still be racked on a heel, belt, curb, wall, table etc.

 

[AK103K]

Your other appendage may already be indisposed for many reasons other than being injured in a gun fight.

Is this "duds and disability" some sort of phobia you got going on?

Just out of curiosity, how much time, and how many extra strikes do you waste on restriking a dud before moving on, and then what do you do?

Just an FYI about Glocks, and perhaps some of the other striker fired guns (I just havent tried them). You can quickly and fairly easily reset the trigger on the Glock one handed, and try again, if you feel the second strike is the way to go. You simply rotate and wrap your fingers up and over the top of the slide, while leaving the thumb/web of your hand on the top of the back strap, and using your fingers, move the slide rewards about 1/4", and then rotate your fingers back. Its not as fast as DA double strike, but it takes less time to do than it took to read this. Still a waste of time, but if you insist.

For those who are loaded Glock trigger phobic, you can also use the above method to cock a "chamber loaded and "uncocked" Glock.

 

[jr24]

I'm sorry, if we're worrying about one arm out of commission while needing a second strike (talk about an unlikely situation) why can't we be worried about clothing, blood, dirt, snow, etc clogging up the hammer and firing pin causing the light strikes or even binding the hammer? If we're getting into worst case scenarios we might as well think of how you'd clear that up, right?