German .25 Auto?

[j-framer]

Hi soxxor,

I am very interested in Mann pistols - since this thread was started, I have been gathering all the information about them that I can.

For my own research purposes, could you possibly provide the serial number of your gun? And if you possibly can, I would LOVE to see photos of the pistol and its original box! It would be a big help to me as I compile data about the Mann pistols.

If you cannot take pictures, could you at least describe your Mann pistol in detail? As you may be aware, there were several variations - some of the early models had cast aluminum grips instead of plastic ones, and I hear that some of the very first guns may have been produced in an odd proprietary caliber different from the standard 6.35mm.

I'd appreciate any info (and particularly photos!!!). The original box is a real "bragging rights" piece to a collector! Congratulations on owning such a desirable combo!

 

[lawbartels]

Fritz Mann pistol

I've got one. Apparently some were manufactured for export. I've got the original user manual in English as well as a manual in German. Cautions about firing: be careful about hand placement or it will take a little nip out of the web of your hand. Also, the original Mann grips will crack easily and are impossible to find so use those handmade replacements. Unfortunately I've got only the box bottom, not top. Anyone interested in PDF copies of manuals (not production quality) can email me directly.

 

[j-framer]

Hi lawbartels,

As I asked soxxor above, could you share the serial number of your gun for research purposes? Also, given that you reference fragile grips, I'm assuming your gun has plastic grip panels, not the early aluminum ones?

 

[lawbartels]

Fritz Mann

Serial # 142XX-12. Plastic grip panels. Any return info re. manufacture date, export etc. will be appreciated.

 

[j-framer]

Thanks lawbartels - always good to hear when one of these little guns turns up, particularly when it's in the hands of someone who appreciates it.

By the way, I assume you accidentally transposed the digits of the date suffix - given the serial number, the year of manufacture should be "21".

 

[wth182]

So do I

I also have the Mann .25, I got mine from my grandfather who was in WWII so when he was in france he found it, I have the gun with homade plastic grips 65+ years old and original capture of enemy equitment certificate.
Serial no. 38540
Does anyone know the value?

 

[j-framer]

Bravo, wth182! Assuming you have accurately reported the serial number, your gun sets a new record in the database that I am compiling of surviving Mann pistols.

In my research about the Mann .25 pistol, I have heard it said that there were "about 20,000 made". This is from several sources, but none that I consider too reliable or authoritative. The 20,000 number seems to have been based on very scanty evidence, as I have recorded a number of serials that are well higher than 20,000 - up until now, the highest serial number that I had a reliable report of was 35535-21 (the "21" suffix just refers to the year of manufacture). Now that I have the serial number of your gun, we can say that the total number of units produced seems to have approached 40,000, if not more. This is assuming no major gaps in the serialization, which I think is a reasonable assumption since I have observed serial numbers nicely spaced throughout the entire range.

If you could possibly post pictures of your gun, that would be terrific, and a close-up of the serial number would really be a great help to me.

One other thing that I am keenly interested to know is the date suffix of your serial number. You reported the serial as "38540", but there should be a -xx (some two-digit number) after it. Please let us know what that -xx number is. The reason I ask is that the only two date suffixes I have ever seen on Mann pistol serials are -20 and -21. As I reported above, even pistol #35535 was, judging from the suffix, apparently still manufactured in 1921. I am very curious to know if any .25s were ever made with a -22 date suffix.

The Mann company seems to have been very short-lived, but during the brief time they made guns they must have really churned these things out.

 

[wth182]

Hey I have the pictures i have no suffix, but I did include the serial number picture as well as the certificate of capture with the name rank and ID blocked.

 

[wth182]

Another

 

[wth182]

And the last

 

[j-framer]

Wow, that is very interesting - groundbreaking, in fact, as far as my own research goes. Apparently somewhere between production of serial #35535-21 and your gun #38540, they got rid of the date suffix after the serial number.

Thank you very much for obliging me with the photographs, I much appreciate it. What a nice souvenir to have, especially with the capture document.

By the way, I hate to be a pain, but if you could possibly take a closer-up shot of each side of the gun - right and left - it would be wonderful. I would just like to see if there are any differences in appearance, controls, markings, etc. between this very late Mann and earlier examples. If you don't get around to it, no problem at all.

 

[wth182]

I will but I can say now that it does have the crowned n in a few places and it does not say Fritz mann sul on the side but "Mann's Patente"

 

[Joguwa86]

First post here.

Here's the Mann I picked up recently, serial 11547-21. The magazine is original, though the feed lips are warped and cause the follower to shoot up through the top. If I load any cartridges the magazine unfortunately jumps right out.

Just to test it out, I bought a new magazine from Triple K, though they gave me a 6 week lead time. I probably won't be trying to repair the original, since this gun will wind up in a display eventually.

For size comparison. That gift card is the size of a credit card.

 

[James K]

Hi, j-framer,

This might not apply to the Mann, of course, but people tracking serial numbers and production data of European guns, especially pistols, should be aware that many makers started at 5000, 10000 or some similar high number. Apparently this was a marketing ploy so prospective buyers would believe the new gun was an established product. And, as you note, makers also left large gaps in serial numbers, mostly when beginning production of a new model.

Jim

 

[j-framer]

wth182,

Thanks - no rush at all on the pictures. As far as the inscription "MANN'S PATENTE" versus "FRITZ MANN, SUHL - PATENTE", I've been unable to perceive any rhyme or reason regarding when one was used and when the other was used. It certainly didn't have had to do with the date of production, as I've seen both kinds of inscriptions sprinkled evenly among examples from 6xxx-21 all the way up to your 38540. "MANN'S PATENTE" does seem a little more common than the other version, though.

The "Crown N" is a German proof mark and will (or should) be found on every Mann. Sometimes they bear another country's proofs as well - the specimen on Gerhard Schoenbauer's "Vest Pocket Pistol Collector" website bears Austrian proofs, for example.

Joguwa86,

Wow!!! That is a very nice Mann pistol you have there! If you're going to try firing it, you might want to remove those original grips, as it's kind of nice to have them intact and it would be a shame to break them accidentally in the course of the test. But darn it, what am I doing telling you what to do with your own pistol? Getting too protective, as always.

Jim,

Thanks for the heads-up on the serial number ranges - I have noticed this in some instances (I believe the Beretta 1919 started at 100,000, for example?). It is true that my data on the Mann is quite limited right now, and I should be cautious about making assertions regarding production numbers. Just in case anyone is interested, here is a partial list of the serial numbers I am aware of at present (I have several more, but I haven't fully organized my photos/reported information yet):

929-20
2421-20
6208-21
11547-21
12xxx-21
13034-21 (nickeled and engraved, though I don't think it is factory work)
13359-21
14993-21
18903-21
23184-21
24522-21
26953-21
35535-21
38540

The placement of the Mann's serial number on the bottom of the frontstrap is very frustrating from a research perspective, because when you find photos of the Mann, or of any other gun, they're typically of the right and left sides. For a gun that has its serial number placed normally on the right or left side of the frame or slide, you'd be able to pick the serial right out and record it. But in the case of the Mann, I have many photos of examples whose numbers I have no way of knowing, because all I have is a right and left shot, or sometimes one side only. Very frustrating.

 

[Joguwa86]

Have any Mann owners found problems with magazine retention? I discovered the mag catch on mine does not engage the magazine at all, which has been the reason for the magazine jumping out when loaded.

I found this out after I fixed the feed lips on my magazine. Left me feeling like a real genius, for sure. Somewhere in the gun's life, someone bent the feed lips out in a poor attempt to keep the mag in the gun.

At it's most extreme position, the mag catch barely engages the mag. I am tempted to remove the catch/button and carefully file away the front just enough to give the catch more movement.

I guess this is the reason why it appears it was never shot. Since I can't shoot it (not that I planned on shooting this much in the first place), I went ahead and got a new case to display the gun in.

EDIT: For anyone needing new grips for their Mann, vintagegungrips.com sells them for about $35 I believe.

 

[j-framer]

Joguwa86,

It's your decision, of course, but I implore you not to take a file to any part of your poor little Mann!!!

If you are having problems with magazine retention, it may very well be due to the gun's having been assembled improperly. The stirrup-shaped spring that is responsible for creating the tension on the magazine catch also serves as the trigger return spring - the bottom part of it fits into a groove on the rear of the mag catch, and then the two side prongs bend sharply in on either side of the catch and go behind the mag catch pin (before the pin is installed, of course!). Then the upper ends of the two prongs have to go in the right spots (one against a cutout in the frame and the other against the trigger, as I recall). You are working in very close quarters, and it is a difficult and tedious process to get everything in the right place. It would be very easy for someone mechanically disinclined or just impatient to do it the wrong way, with the result that the catch's function might be impaired or simply reversed.

So before doing anything else, I would suggest you go to Gerhard Schoenbauer's website, which has exploded views of many pocket pistols, including the Mann (about halfway down), and print out the picture showing all the Mann's parts laid out, and study it until you feel that you have a basic feel for what the various parts do. If you are the type who enjoys such work, go ahead and carefully (using the right screwdriver bits and punches!) disassemble the gun. The Mann is actually quite a simple firearm as you will see.

Here's the link to Gerhard's website:

http://www.vestpockets.bauli.at/archiv/mann1p.jpg

Let us know how you make out!

 

[DS410]

Just found this forum . . .

I have one of these guns. It was my grandfather's. He was a jazz pianist in the 1920's and carried it for personal protection when he would walk in the city at night when he played the clubs. Don't think he ever fired it - looks to be in perfect condition except the safety lever is popped. (I still have it but can't figure out how to get it back in. Any help?)

Serial number is 12981-21. Plastic grips are intact and quite clean looking. On the side it says MANN'S PATENTE along with the other usual markings, Cal. 6.35, N with crown / star, etc.

I'll try to post some pictures if I can get them scaled down enough.

Any additional info out there? Thanks.

 

[DS410]

Pictures

Okay, was able to get the pictures down to size. So let's try this:

 

[j-framer]

DS410,

It is great to have this thread revived with yet another surviving specimen (in fine condition, I might add!). Thank you for the photographs, particularly the close-up of the serial.

Regarding the safety lever, I suggest carefully removing the left grip and the plate that covers the trigger bar. Look at the inside of the frontstrap (higher up) and you should be able to get a pretty clear view (though cramped) of the area through which the shaft of the safety lever passes. Hopefully you will be able to figure out what is responsible for creating the tension on the flats milled into the safety's axle when the safety is in place.

It seems that there should be a leg of a spring that rides in those slots and serves both to keep the safety in place (axially) and also simultaneously to create resistance to the safety's rotation between the safe and fire positions.