Forward Assist - Why Everyone NEEDS Them...

[44 AMP]

The "wait a minute" slang came out of Vietnam. The three prong open ended flash suppressor was VERY prone to catching on, or being tangled in vegetation.

Nothing says "wait a minute" like having your rifle snagged in the jungle (vines are a real treat for that), where you have to unsnag your rifle, and then make sure there isn't stuff in the suppressor before you could move or worse, shoot.

Supplies delivered by chopper were nearly always banded to their pallets with metal "banding straps" and yes, despite standing orders NOT TO DO IT, GIs often used their rifle barrels as prybars.

This came to light as a result of analyzing repair requests and finding an unexplainably high number of bent barrels. The "solution" of standing orders not to do it, was, of course, not completely effective.

Colt's "solution" was the H-Bar configuration. H-bar is supposed to stand for "heavy barrel" but the H-bar barrel isn't a true heavy barrel profile. What Colt did was increase the barrel thickness (making it less likely to get bent) in front of the handguards. Underneath the handguards, all the way back to the upper receiver, the barrel kept the same contour it always had.

 

[Screwball]

You have a blow back action that has a functional forward assist??

(the charging handle does not count as a forward assist)

https://cmmg.com/forward-assist-adapter-kit-22arc

 

[44 AMP]

so, an adapter piece for a conversion kit, made to convert a standard CF AR rifle to be able to use the forward assist the gun was made with.

Not the same in my book as a blow back action designed from the ground up to be a blow back action, but close enough to answer my question.

 

[Screwball]

As mentioned earlier, I use a CMMG bolt in a Spikes dedicated upper. The block came with the bolt when I ordered it to swap my Spikes assembly.

In any event, my comment still stands…

.22 rimfire is dirty. The forward assist in that setup does keep the shooter shooting instead of clearing jams left/right.

 

[DaleA]

Thanks 44 AMP. Much appreciated.

 

[radom]

Here I like the forward ass deal, can close the bolt with out that loud clack when a deer is in range.

 

[davidsog]

It is hard to see the value of a FA in a rifle that gets pulled out of the safe to run a couple of hundred rounds thru it every so often.

However, When you are in the ORP or LCC performing a press check, it is essential.

It is also essential in prolonged firefights were multiple combat loads are used up without an opportunity to clean the rifle. I used it multiple times in a 43 hour continuous firefight and it kept me going until a lull allowed the CLP bottle to come out. Many times in my Army career, you could tap the FA when reloading and feel/see the bolt go into battery such that a misfire would have occurred without it.

It wasn't a feature on the rifle until after the Army gained experience with the rifle at the edges of its design operating parameters.

 

[tangolima]

Good point about press check. Now I recall having to use the FA myself for the same purpose.

I wonder how the Germans do it on their G3 or mp5, or the Brits on FAL.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[davidsog]

I wonder how the Germans do it on their G3 or mp5, or the Brits on FAL.

I think it has to do with the differences in European Military philosophy on Infantry employment vs US Doctrine at the time.

When those rifles were on the drawing board....

In European Armies the prevalent thinking was Officers control when the men lock and load much more tightly than US Doctrine. In US Doctrine, you lock and load when leaving the wire. Europe simply does not have the gun culture the United States has and most Europeans never held a weapon until they were in military service. Consequently much of these theories became a solution looking for a problem. It is just not that hard to teach gun safety. As far as weapon design it is kind of like the "cock on close vs cock on opening" debate when Military Bolt Action rifles became a thing. If your not familar, many military theorist thought the ROF increase and general filth of the modern battlefield could cause bolt action rifles to become so fouled that the soldier would be unable to unlock the action to cycle the bolt. Cock on Close was a way to mitigate this risk. World War I proved it was a solution looking for a problem as the pre war fears were found to be unjustified.

European Military doctrine, you lock and load upon command when the Officer believes enemy contract is imminent. That is why you see things taken to the extreme in no safeties at all on some of the French Military rifles such as the MAS 36. You can see this design philosophy with the Standard Infantry Rifles of the European Powers in World War II. None of them have a safety that can be operated by the firing hand with the weapon shouldered.
Only the US M1 Garand had such a safety.

It is also why when European Military small arms began to incorporate a manual safety, it was designed to be operated with the non-firing hand. That was to prevent Joe Snuffy from having an AD by accidently taking his weapon off safe. That is why both the FN-FAL and G3 are difficult to operate with the firing hand thumb. Snuffy was instructed to not take his weapon off safe without the express order from an Officer.

Were these concerns valid? Probably not and time has shifted European doctrine to be more standardized across NATO. There is even some validity to the thought as for example, the 7th ID during the Invasion of Panama got their bullets taken away just 5 days into the Invasion because their accident rate had surpassed the PDF's ability to create casualties rate. Live rounds were issued as needed per order of the Officers.

 

[rickyrick]

I don’t think anyone is asserting that there’s not a military or police use for the FA. Like mentioned above it’s for people that may need to use it when the gun has gotten too fouled to function properly or those who must roll in the mud and dirt.

With a recreational rifle, I see no “need” for the FA except for some SHTF fantasies that some people have.
If your rifle fails to go into battery on its own, you need to stop and investigate the situation.
I’m also not a proponent of riding the charging handle, i.e hunting; the round needs to be chambered long before quiet-time. Semiautomatic rifles should be chambered with the full force of the action.
Press checks, that’s a maybe. I feel that failure to strip and chamber a round is a malfunction, need to be investigated as well. I also feel the piece of mind is just as important, maybe even more important.
That being said, as a civilian:
Have I used the FA when an AR failed to fire? yup
Have I rode the the charging handle and then used the FA? Yup
Have I done a press check and used the FA? Yup

 

[tangolima]

Right. So they don't do press check at all? There is chance the bolt fails to chamber a round, say when the magazine isn't completely seated.

Germans and Brits are in NATO. Don't they follow the same doctrines to have chambered weapons when they go outside the wire?

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[davidsog]

With a recreational rifle, I see no “need” for the FA except for some SHTF fantasies that some people have.

A personal choice and I have no issues outside of the attempt to disparage the decisions of others to have a FA on their rifle.

As per General Gage, The Crown agrees with you in your perception of SHTF fantasy.

No gunpowder either....

One response to the problem was to deprive the
Americans of gunpowder.

The British became concerned that Massachusetts towns had
been withdrawing their gunpowder from the powder houses.46
Before dawn on September 1, 1774, 260 Redcoats acting on
General Gage‘s order sailed up the Mystic River and seized
hundreds of barrels of powder from the Charlestown powder
house (next to the present site of Tufts University, in what is now
Somerville).47 The only powder that was left to take belonged to
the colonial government, so Gage was within his legal rights to
seize it. But the seizure still incensed the public.48

file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/SSRN-id1967702.pdf

Bunch of weirdoes back then with their SHTF fantasies. Pfft.

Facts are the natural state of the world is not "All Men are Created Equal with Liberty and Justice for All" but rather it is "why should my wealth and power be subject to your law protecting the weak/powerless from what I want to do."

The only thing stopping them is a rifle.

 

[davidsog]

Don't they follow the same doctrines to have chambered weapons when they go outside the wire?

No. They follow their doctrine. NATO is only for integration of strategic command. Only recently has this extended to the Operational level. When soldiers lock and load is a tactical decision.

 

[rickyrick]

Bunch of weirdoes back then with their SHTF fantasies. Pfft.

Point taken.
I will amend and say that a person could get along with a rifle without a forward assist, I’ve even experimented with pushing the bolt forward with just my thumb in the bolt carrier indent, lol.
I have pallets of ammunition, just in case. There’s no law enforcement near me, I have to handle things myself For probably a good part of an hour. Maybe longer.

 

[44 AMP]

"All Men are Created Equal with Liberty and Justice for All"

Congratulations on your skill at taking phrases out of context from different documents and sources, and mashing them together so that the intended meanings are obscured.

I don't see how that applies to the topic of AR forward assists, though.

It wasn't a feature on the rifle until after the Army gained experience with the rifle at the edges of its design operating parameters.

The forward assist was the Army's "fix" for the problem they created with poor training ("the M16 doesn't need to be cleaned"), lack of support (supply of proper cleaning kits, etc) and a totally unnecessary change to a different powder in its ammo specs.

But that is ancient history now, so pffft, right??

 

[davidsog]

No NATO or coalition commander has FULLCOM over the forces assigned to their since, in assigning forces to NATO, nations will delegate only operational command or operational control.

NATO never has TACCON or Tactical Control over any of its forces.

Nations control their own capabilities, until release to NATO through the TOA mechanism. It is nations’ responsibility to provide their deployed force with the required combat effectiveness before TOA.

Nations are responsible for ensuring OPCON but not TACCON.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.coemed.org/files/stanags/01_AJP/AJP-3_EDC_V1_E_2490.pdf

 

[davidsog]

Point taken.
I will amend and say that a person could get along with a rifle without a forward assist, I’ve even experimented with pushing the bolt forward with just my thumb in the bolt carrier indent, lol.
I have pallets of ammunition, just in case. There’s no law enforcement near me, I have to handle things myself For probably a good part of an hour. Maybe longer.

I agree. Keep some gloves handy for touching a hot bolt. For a collector, a FA would be taboo on period correct rifle clones and there is absolutely nothing wrong with having one or not having one.

Congratulations on your skill at taking phrases out of context from different documents and sources, and mashing them together so that the intended meanings are obscured.

Catty

 

[Armybrat]

I had an early S&W Sport AR15 with no FA or dust cover.
They were nicknamed “slick sides”.
Looked like this one, except mine was clean.

 

[rc]

Those who have an M1 Carbine/Garand derived action don't need no skinkin forward assist. We have bolt handles to beat on when we want rounds to go into the chamber and when we want them to come out. Sadly even with that benefit, Russian steel case can still jam up a gun till you pull out a clearing rod.

 

[44 AMP]

While lots of people have no issues, others do, so the only thing I run steel cased ammo through is Combloc designed weapons. For me, reliable function is more important than the cheapest possible ammo cost.