FMJ's vs Hollow's for self defense
- Thread starter DonutGuy
- Start date
nope
While on rare occasion any one (or dozen?) of my guns will be full of ball, it is never my preference.
The only valid reason to fill a gun with ball is because one is forced to......
FWIW, New York City has paid out hundreds of millions of dollars
in settling lawsuits from shoot-throughs.
While on rare occasion any one (or dozen?) of my guns will be full of ball, it is never my preference.
The only valid reason to fill a gun with ball is because one is forced to......
FWIW, New York City has paid out hundreds of millions of dollars
in settling lawsuits from shoot-throughs.Pathfinder45
New member
Pattern Loading,......
...... it's the best of both worlds. Whether you have a revolver or a bottom feeder; both can be pattern loaded. Half a cylinder/magazine or so of hollow points with the remainder being solids just in case more penetration is required. Think about it........
...... it's the best of both worlds. Whether you have a revolver or a bottom feeder; both can be pattern loaded. Half a cylinder/magazine or so of hollow points with the remainder being solids just in case more penetration is required. Think about it........
Edward429451
Moderator
I side with the morons, that gun rags lieing!
<New York City has paid out hundreds of millions of dollars in settling lawsuits from shoot-throughs.>
Shoot throughs or misses?!
<New York City has paid out hundreds of millions of dollars in settling lawsuits from shoot-throughs.>
Shoot throughs or misses?!
That makes an important point for consideration in HD.
Agencies make their top-down decisions based on potential liabilities, budgets, and training levels, issued equipment, scenario training, etc.
Military is decided already based on the rules of 'civilized' combat. A FMJ wounds rather than kills more often, so an enemy shot with FMJ lies bleeding and requires the help of a couple of his comrades plus a medic, taking them all out of the fight. A dead enemy OTOH, is just a body to climb over on the way to killing you.
So in making decisions for home or personal self defense, try not to be too influenced by what agencies or military does or does not do. Make that decision based on YOUR situation - the gun and how it digests ammo, and your abilities and surroundings.
Agencies make their top-down decisions based on potential liabilities, budgets, and training levels, issued equipment, scenario training, etc.
Military is decided already based on the rules of 'civilized' combat. A FMJ wounds rather than kills more often, so an enemy shot with FMJ lies bleeding and requires the help of a couple of his comrades plus a medic, taking them all out of the fight. A dead enemy OTOH, is just a body to climb over on the way to killing you.
So in making decisions for home or personal self defense, try not to be too influenced by what agencies or military does or does not do. Make that decision based on YOUR situation - the gun and how it digests ammo, and your abilities and surroundings.
Edward429451
Moderator
Yeah but NYC fields hundreds of officers and those guys go chasing trouble so I can understand why those giys get a little itchy.
A private citizen is likely to be a better shot than the cops, have more restraint and discipline in shoot/no shoot than the average cop. I conclude that penetration is your friend when it comes to SD.
Gangsters are in the military getting training now. They aren't so dumb anymore. I can easily envision a scenario where one may need to penetrate a hard target.
I have been ccw for ~25 years now and have never shot anyone, so I must have a decent head on my shoulders. This is all well thought out for me. I understand that a bullet could pass through or I could miss, and I am liable for those rounds. The solution is not to change ammo, the solution is to change strategy and tactics, and practice shoot/no shoot.
A private citizen is likely to be a better shot than the cops, have more restraint and discipline in shoot/no shoot than the average cop. I conclude that penetration is your friend when it comes to SD.
Gangsters are in the military getting training now. They aren't so dumb anymore. I can easily envision a scenario where one may need to penetrate a hard target.
I have been ccw for ~25 years now and have never shot anyone, so I must have a decent head on my shoulders. This is all well thought out for me. I understand that a bullet could pass through or I could miss, and I am liable for those rounds. The solution is not to change ammo, the solution is to change strategy and tactics, and practice shoot/no shoot.
You really seem to understand the gestalt of a wide issue that has it's roots in the days when oog the caveman wondered, "throw big rock, or throw small rock?"
Guns are rock throwers. Bad guys and good guys are both animals, and unpredictable. You don't get to choose when, where, who, what, in short, the outcome and circumstances of your use of a weapon is going to be decided by either God, Satan, or random chaos, whichever you believe in.
Deciding that one gadget or another will make you safe, save your soul, make a real man out of you or whatever and that only fools choose the other, is the sort of mindset that Timothy Leary had.
If I can digress a bit, statistically, in Drunk driving fatalities, the drunk has a better chance of surviving. It is suggested that his booze fueled noodlism is what keeps his bones from breaking and organs from rupturing.
Flexibility and adaptability are the key to victory in any contest, and survival, and a gun confrontation is nothing but a contest. No rules, no red ribbon. sometimes not even a blue.
Once, when I was a very young and impressionable guy, I alternated 115/147/fmj rounds in my magazines as was suggested by an "expert". After firing a couple dozen of those magazines, i realized that it was the stupidest idea I'd ever heard. I started taking different psychotropic medications, then I mastered using one round. The only advantage I'm going to claim in a confrontation is that I'm good at what I do, I'm certain of what I'm doing, and I'm going to dodge, run, skip, and last but not least, leave no stone unturned to kill that bad guy. Most of the time, the other guy won't have any of those advantages, but he'll still be armed, and just firing one lucky shot at me may be enough to kill me.
So, I adapted my choice of weapon and ammunition to my skills and so forth, adapted it to my probable target, and made an empty vessel of my mind. Then I handed my butt over to God, and I hope he's going to give me a break if it ever comes to a life and death situation. Part of adapting is that there is a 30-06 inside my hall closet, and that comes out more often than the pistol does, if there is a disturbance in my neighborhood.
Once several years ago, there was a traffic stop on main street in my town. Main street is a rather low traffic area here.
A passenger, a convicted felon and parolee, was holding a stolen .44 magnum. He jumped out of the car and fired. What ensued was a 6 block running gunfight. there were lots of officers, and dozens of rounds fired, the perp was hit numerous times, and he he went down only after an officer nailed him with a rifle as he circled around to his vehicle. Our men carried +P hydrashok. He wasn't wearing body armor or a bullet proof leather jacket, it wasn't bad lots of ammo, he wasn't arnold whoever that guy is, he just kept going, like hundreds of other people have under similar circumstances.
It perfectly illustrates the concept that we, the protagonists, don't decide the outcome of those contests. All we do is toss the elements into the blender, and hope that it doesn't eventually take a man with an AR to intervene and save our lives.
Guns are rock throwers. Bad guys and good guys are both animals, and unpredictable. You don't get to choose when, where, who, what, in short, the outcome and circumstances of your use of a weapon is going to be decided by either God, Satan, or random chaos, whichever you believe in.
Deciding that one gadget or another will make you safe, save your soul, make a real man out of you or whatever and that only fools choose the other, is the sort of mindset that Timothy Leary had.
If I can digress a bit, statistically, in Drunk driving fatalities, the drunk has a better chance of surviving. It is suggested that his booze fueled noodlism is what keeps his bones from breaking and organs from rupturing.
Flexibility and adaptability are the key to victory in any contest, and survival, and a gun confrontation is nothing but a contest. No rules, no red ribbon. sometimes not even a blue.
Once, when I was a very young and impressionable guy, I alternated 115/147/fmj rounds in my magazines as was suggested by an "expert". After firing a couple dozen of those magazines, i realized that it was the stupidest idea I'd ever heard. I started taking different psychotropic medications, then I mastered using one round. The only advantage I'm going to claim in a confrontation is that I'm good at what I do, I'm certain of what I'm doing, and I'm going to dodge, run, skip, and last but not least, leave no stone unturned to kill that bad guy. Most of the time, the other guy won't have any of those advantages, but he'll still be armed, and just firing one lucky shot at me may be enough to kill me.
So, I adapted my choice of weapon and ammunition to my skills and so forth, adapted it to my probable target, and made an empty vessel of my mind. Then I handed my butt over to God, and I hope he's going to give me a break if it ever comes to a life and death situation. Part of adapting is that there is a 30-06 inside my hall closet, and that comes out more often than the pistol does, if there is a disturbance in my neighborhood.
Once several years ago, there was a traffic stop on main street in my town. Main street is a rather low traffic area here.
A passenger, a convicted felon and parolee, was holding a stolen .44 magnum. He jumped out of the car and fired. What ensued was a 6 block running gunfight. there were lots of officers, and dozens of rounds fired, the perp was hit numerous times, and he he went down only after an officer nailed him with a rifle as he circled around to his vehicle. Our men carried +P hydrashok. He wasn't wearing body armor or a bullet proof leather jacket, it wasn't bad lots of ammo, he wasn't arnold whoever that guy is, he just kept going, like hundreds of other people have under similar circumstances.
It perfectly illustrates the concept that we, the protagonists, don't decide the outcome of those contests. All we do is toss the elements into the blender, and hope that it doesn't eventually take a man with an AR to intervene and save our lives.
Just to make things interesting on a Monday...how does some frangible rounds sound for personal defense? Would the potential for exaggerated infection be worth the tradeoff in muzzle velocity(I picked up some at a gun show about a year ago, just realized what I had in the infamous back room).
Many frangible rounds, glaser, so forth, are considered top of the line for disabling opponents in a gun fight with a single round, from statistical records. They're not a terribly reliable thing, IMO, and of course, they won't penetrate well through various barriers. I'd be happy to pop a glaser or other frangible combat round into somebody if I had some sort of reassurance that nothing would go wrong, and that he wouldn't survive and take me to court after my use of creep killer bullets.
Keep in mind that the manufacturer of the glaser safety slug used to keep a huge payout promised to the estate of anyone killed by a perp who was hit in the body by even a single glaser slug, and managed to return fire. They never paid it out, to my knowledge.
My brother asked me to find glasers for him 30 years ago, and I refused. he wanted them because his wife slept alone, in the country, when he was traveling. he wanted her safe with a magazine full of .45 glasers.
He had 3 kids, and his wife wasn't the most level headed person i know. Neither is he. Did I give him his glasers? Not on your life. I loved my nieces, and I didn't relish them bleeding out because they were shot by accident. I didn't like the idea of him catching the village retard in his barn some evening, shooting him, and going to prison because he used insanely unnecessary lethal force against an unknown threat.
Regarding the rest of that, are you kidding? I want him to bleed to death now, not a few weeks later of gangrene. I'm sticking with deep wide bleeding wounds. I don't care what I use to get it. I'll even use my crossbow. I won't switch to any sort of frangible as a SD round because there are a universe full of variables waiting to trip you.
Keep in mind that the manufacturer of the glaser safety slug used to keep a huge payout promised to the estate of anyone killed by a perp who was hit in the body by even a single glaser slug, and managed to return fire. They never paid it out, to my knowledge.
My brother asked me to find glasers for him 30 years ago, and I refused. he wanted them because his wife slept alone, in the country, when he was traveling. he wanted her safe with a magazine full of .45 glasers.
He had 3 kids, and his wife wasn't the most level headed person i know. Neither is he. Did I give him his glasers? Not on your life. I loved my nieces, and I didn't relish them bleeding out because they were shot by accident. I didn't like the idea of him catching the village retard in his barn some evening, shooting him, and going to prison because he used insanely unnecessary lethal force against an unknown threat.
Regarding the rest of that, are you kidding? I want him to bleed to death now, not a few weeks later of gangrene. I'm sticking with deep wide bleeding wounds. I don't care what I use to get it. I'll even use my crossbow. I won't switch to any sort of frangible as a SD round because there are a universe full of variables waiting to trip you.
Yeah, here too. I only use FMJ in my semi autos and it will be the only thing I use in my semi autos. When something works 100% of the time, dont mess with it. I have had feed issues with HP ammo, once was all it took to give that box to a friend and use FMJ exclusivly as I dont carry a revolver.
Cides, the fmj goes thru ribs when the hp stops. We use dead animals like that show on warriors does to see what the round will do on actual flesh and bones. Tested and true FMJ gives better performance in dead animals as far as penetration to vital areas goes.
Gee I remember when HP first came out, was lead nose HPs in .38. Technology has improved the round but not enough for me.
failure to operate a firearm is a good enough and legit reason to dump hollow points, IMO.
I've never had a single failure of any sort in my hi power other than a couple of limp wrist failures with light lead loads. But, that is still why I keep revolvers next to the beds. KISS.
I've never had a single failure of any sort in my hi power other than a couple of limp wrist failures with light lead loads. But, that is still why I keep revolvers next to the beds. KISS.
real documented US LE shootings, NYPD 9mm issue, FMJ-JHP..
I heard about 2-3 years ago that around 75% of sworn LEOs nationwide MISS the target-subject with the 1st fired round.
A LE article noted how a police officer emptied a 12ga pump shotgun(model-brand unknown) at a violent attacker 2 car lengths away. The cop missed with every 12ga shell!
To my knowledge, the NYPD issues the Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP +P 9mm and assisted the engineers/T&E of CCI-Speer with the 135gr Gold Dot HP +P .38spl for the snub DA/DA-only .38spl duty revolvers(S&W J frame, Ruger GPNY, SP101). ESU(emergency services) may use FMJ loads but I'm not sure.
MF Ayoob's police ammunition information is valid. He also suggests buying/carrying LE weapons or the same brands if open to the public.
The main LE agencies near me use the Ranger T 127gr +P+ 9mm JHP and the .45acp Speer Gold Dot 230 JHP +P. A few suburban PDs use Glock/SIG .40s but I'm unaware of the brand choice for duty rounds.
Clyde
I heard about 2-3 years ago that around 75% of sworn LEOs nationwide MISS the target-subject with the 1st fired round.
A LE article noted how a police officer emptied a 12ga pump shotgun(model-brand unknown) at a violent attacker 2 car lengths away. The cop missed with every 12ga shell!
To my knowledge, the NYPD issues the Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP +P 9mm and assisted the engineers/T&E of CCI-Speer with the 135gr Gold Dot HP +P .38spl for the snub DA/DA-only .38spl duty revolvers(S&W J frame, Ruger GPNY, SP101). ESU(emergency services) may use FMJ loads but I'm not sure.
MF Ayoob's police ammunition information is valid. He also suggests buying/carrying LE weapons or the same brands if open to the public.
The main LE agencies near me use the Ranger T 127gr +P+ 9mm JHP and the .45acp Speer Gold Dot 230 JHP +P. A few suburban PDs use Glock/SIG .40s but I'm unaware of the brand choice for duty rounds.
Clyde
I have seen quite a few thousands of private citizens in stressful situations. They are always screaming and soiling themselves, running away from the things I'm responding to.
And I've yet to see more than a couple of those private citizens out shoot me at the range either, even against those no moving paper targets that are so much easier to hit than the flesh ones that are shooting back. About every other one THINKS they can of course. Comes with the territory. Everybody wants to dream about strapping on a hogleg and being a gunfighter. Imagining how good they'd be.
If you're so good, strap on a badge (or set of BDUs if you'd rather try the military) and lead the way, hero. You'll love it. Great pay. Nights, weekends, holidays ON DUTY, chances to spend plenty of time in crackhouses and other excellent parts of society. bodily fluids of every variety, car wrecks and other accidents, mangled bodies, druggies, psyche emergencies, child molesters, dead children-- did I mention the defense liars? Or those people who PAY YOUR SALARY (probably not actually taxpayers) who know exactly how you should be doing your job--it's all here waiting for YOU. You sound like just the guy we need to teach us how it's really done.
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Deaf Smith
New member
Now for such as the Bersa .380, or P3AT, TCP, etc... I have found the new Winchster 95gr FMJ FLATPOINT is not bad. the .380 does not have alot of penitration and I think the FMJ flat point is not a bad choice. And it allows you to test the gun very well with the same ammo you will use to defend yourself (think about that... Corbon DPX cost so much per round can you test 50 or 100 rounds?)
But for higher velocity rounds like 9x19, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, etc... you would at a disadvantage if you used FMJ. Loss of power and over penitration being the two problems.
I will say, if you have to use FMJ, get a flat point design.
But for higher velocity rounds like 9x19, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, etc... you would at a disadvantage if you used FMJ. Loss of power and over penitration being the two problems.
I will say, if you have to use FMJ, get a flat point design.
After hearing the crap my cousins tell me (Omaha LEO) I would not want that job for any amount of pay. Personally I think cops are a bit insane, they get up, dress for work and go to a job they may not survive on that particular day. A job that involves dealing with the worst human scum possible.
On the other hand, police are respected by good folks that would be lost without them. Society has a need for these guys and gals, I sure do tip my hat to them.
I guess I am not crazy enough for that type of job. Sure am glad there are those that are.