FMJ's vs Hollow's for self defense

[FEG]

Anyone who says that a .22 won't penetrate is completely oblivious of actual facts and is likely falling into the extremely dangerous fallacy of equating performance and ability with size. Far too many people look at the .22 and see just a cute little round that just OBVIOUSLY can't be dangerous because it's far too tiny and cute compared to larger rounds.

A .22 caliber bullet, after hitting a door frame and deforming significantly, penetrated deeply into Ronald Reagan's chest and almost killed him.

An individual I worked with years ago was shot accidentally by a friend at less than 10 feet with a .22 semi-auto pistol.

The bullet hit him in the right chest, broke a rib, traversed the chest cavity bounced off a rib in the left chest, and ended up in his left kidney. In total, probably close to 15 inches of penetration and a wound that shouldn't have been survivable, and almost wasn't.

To those who doubt that ballistic gelatin is a valid testing media. The reason it was chosen as a testing media is because it approximates the average mean density of all human tissue in the body. That's why bone isn't cast into testing gelatin - it would throw off the average mean density figures.

What's seen in ballistic gelatin testing by FBI and the industry (which has largely adopted it as their testing media, as well) has been, to a large degree, born out by what is actually seen in the same bullets fired into living humans.

Dr. Martin Fackler of the Firearms Tactical Institute has written extensively on this subject.

Many of Dr. Fackler's articles and studies are available for free.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/

At the risk of becoming persona non grata, I would go so far as to say that anyone who isn't familiar with this literature should probably avoid posting. Contrary to what you may read on the internet, many of the top experts (as in "expert witnesses" and peer-reviewed scientists) have developed an extensive body of research on these topics.

I am not an expert by any means, but I know several people who would qualify as "experts," in the sense of having withstood peer review. All of these people tend to support Dr. Fackler's findings.

If anyone really cares, I can elaborate at some length.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Sorry, but I don't buy into the miss with a .45 is better than a hit with a .22 thing. NOPE!"

Yep, that's akin to the old "Just racking a 12 gauge pump shotgun will cause someone to run screaming into the night trailing a stream of urine..." and other such nonsense.

 

[Super-Dave]

Is the fmj more likely to kill a target than a jhp?

The fmj pretty much guarantees adequate penetration and most likely penetrates the target completely.

I know a lot of hunters who only use fmj on certain game.

I am not talking "stoping power" but "killing power"

 

[LordTio3]

Big +1 Mike

Just use Hollow Points for self defense. I've argued both sides and gone back and forth on the issue, but when it comes down to it, every police department and government agency uses them. Why? Becuase they kill bad guys better than the alternative. How do they know this? They use them to kill more bad guys a year than the average group of as many armed citizens.

I really don't think they are wrong.

~LT

 

[Mike Irwin]

"US Army COL Martin Fackler's research on ammunition and wounds are worth bringing up."

It's even more important to recognize what DOCTOR Fackler did for many years:

1. In Vietnam he was a surgeon treating, among other things, traumatic bullet wounds sustained by US personnel.

2. Was chief of the US Army's wound ballistics laboratory, which studied the effects of projectiles in tissue and developed protocols to allow Army medical personnel to more effectively treat those wounds.

When it comes to bullet wounds, Martin Fackler is probably among the most experienced and most knowledgeable individuals alive today.

He not only has practical experience in treating such wounds, he has the research experience in determining how those wounds are made, and he has the theoretical experience in developing protocols to not just treat those wounds, but in his work with FBI and the industry, how to make those wounds even more effective.


The design and performance revolution in hollow point performance that began in the late 1980s/early 1990s are essentially the result of his work.

 

[ofitg]

With large (sometimes VERY large) soft lead unjacketed bullets that also expand on impact.

I've read that the pure lead balls used in muzzleloaders will often expand, but I'm not so sure about the harder alloy bullets used in the old cartridge revolvers.... of course, as you noted, the professionals preferred "forty-something" caliber bores to begin with.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Many of the old cartridges that were factory loaded with black powder used pure, or very very close to pure, lead bullets all the way up through the end of the black powder era.

At most they might have been hardened with a little bit of tin, but not much.

Rifle bullets were generally the hardest of the bunch because of the higher velocities, while handgun bullets hardly at all.

I have an Ideal Handbook, Number 26, which I believe was published right around 1915 or so.

In it it talks about casting bullets and about 1 part tin to 40 parts lead being a good general purpose bullet mix.

For harder bullets, it recommends up to 1 part tin to 16 parts lead, which I believe is pretty close to a Linotype mix but without the antimony.

 

[CarbineCaleb]

Hollowpoint expansion causes higher drag in the body. Therefore, hollowpoint expansion reduces penetration. In many cartridges, that is not much of a problem, unless the person is large, or the shooting angle is unfavorable.

But in weaker cartridges like .380 auto and .38 Special, which have low velocity relative to the bullet's sectional density, FMJ makes a lot of sense. The FBI recommends 12-16 inches of penetration for a defense round, and you won't get there with a .380 or .38 Special hollowpoint if it expands well.

 

[markj]

Just use Hollow Points for self defense. I've argued both sides and gone back and forth on the issue, but when it comes down to it, every police department and government agency uses them. Why? Becuase they kill bad guys better than the alternative. How do they know this? They use them to kill more bad guys a year than the average group of as many armed citizens.

I really don't think they are wrong.

How would you feel if you gave this advise to a new shooter and his gun jammed at the very moment he needed it? FMJ for me in my semis, I know they will run when needed and will do the job needed. Bottom line.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"I know they will run when needed"

That's what firing testing with do for you with your chosen ammo, too.

No one needs to guess if ammo A is going to work in gun B. That's why we have shooting ranges and gun stores where we can buy more ammo.

I know that Remington Golden Saber and Winchester Ranger both work flawlessly in my P7PSP and my Browning High Power because I've shot enough of both types out of each gun to know.

 

[IMTHDUKE]

Late to the feast, but I find the whole argument a bit silly. Hollowpoints trump FMJ's in every test ever devised, in every statistical analysis of real life shootings and frankly, in common sense.

1. If you handgun isn't reliable with HP's, then it's broke. Your problem is not with HP's, it's with your firearm.

2. If your handgun won't penetrate with HP's, then you don't have enough gun.

Hollowpoints do more damage, period. It's really not complicated.

I goin with this....