I know this has been dragged thru the mud before, but I have a few friends that insist that FMJ's are the #1 choice over hollowpoints...and their respected calibers differ. Friend #1 carries a Beretta 9mm, #2 a Bersa .380 and #3 a Kimber .45....all 3 insist that FMJ's are better for different reasons. Me, I've always carried hollowpoints in all my handguns...Federal HST in 9mm and .40, and currently Gold Dots in .45 GAP in my Glock 39. Thoughts anyone?
FMJ's vs Hollow's for self defense
- Thread starter DonutGuy
- Start date
I carry the HST's and Hornandy CD. However, there are advantages and disadvantages to both FMJ's vs HP's. It all depends upon what you think will work the best in the situation you are most likely to find yourself in. There are those that carry +P+ 9mm FMJ's for penetration.... because NATO and some LEO's do.
I figure the likelihood of me shooting thru a car window, a door, etc. are less than what the advantages are of the HP's.
I figure the likelihood of me shooting thru a car window, a door, etc. are less than what the advantages are of the HP's.
Nomadicone
New member
I carry HP 100% of the time. I live in warm/hot weather but if I lived in cold weather where folks wear several layers and a coat I might be persuaded to use FMJ. I suspect though I would use something like a Hornady XTP. Just my opinion.
The impression I've gotten is that a premium JHP is almost always "better" unless the caliber is so small that expansion is minimal or achieved at the expense of much needed penetration.
Are your friends concerned with firing through barriers? That viewpoint, however dubious, was recently expressed in another thread.
Are your friends concerned with firing through barriers? That viewpoint, however dubious, was recently expressed in another thread.
FMJ rounds for duty-protection-CCW...
I see a limited value for some types of FMJ rounds for duty/CC or protection handguns. I would get quality or major brand FMJ or ball type rounds for spare magazines not not the main pistol mag or clip. For example; I'd carry a 16/17 round clip of Remington Golden Saber(bonded) 124gr JHP +P or Ranger T +P 124gr JHP or Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP +P with 2 16/17rd pistol mags filled with Ranger T 124gr FMJ or Remington FMJ 124gr milspec. I'd also use the Federal EFMJ(expanding full metal jacket) or the Corbon PowRball. These feed very well, punch deeper through most building materials-barriers etc and weigh/recoil nearly the same as the factory made JHP loads.
In a real gunfight, it could be required to go through a full mag(or in a break do a tactical re-load,
) and go to a spare magazine. A jam, problem or malfuction may need it too. A violent attacker or subject may be behind a position that a JHP or pre-fragmented round may not do well against. Ball of FMJ rounds may stop the subject better under those conditions.
If I had my last loaded mag or clip I'd be making a hasty exfill of the A/O(area of operations) as fast as I could.
Many agencies and armed security providers mandate JHP or other handgun rounds but I would use FMJ/ball type rounds in those magazines.
Clyde
ps: On another board, a member went ape-scat over my reasons for FMJ rounds. I think it's fairly clear-cut. If you choose another round have at it but in all honesty you'd have to be able to justify or support your actions.
I see a limited value for some types of FMJ rounds for duty/CC or protection handguns. I would get quality or major brand FMJ or ball type rounds for spare magazines not not the main pistol mag or clip. For example; I'd carry a 16/17 round clip of Remington Golden Saber(bonded) 124gr JHP +P or Ranger T +P 124gr JHP or Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP +P with 2 16/17rd pistol mags filled with Ranger T 124gr FMJ or Remington FMJ 124gr milspec. I'd also use the Federal EFMJ(expanding full metal jacket) or the Corbon PowRball. These feed very well, punch deeper through most building materials-barriers etc and weigh/recoil nearly the same as the factory made JHP loads.
In a real gunfight, it could be required to go through a full mag(or in a break do a tactical re-load,
) and go to a spare magazine. A jam, problem or malfuction may need it too. A violent attacker or subject may be behind a position that a JHP or pre-fragmented round may not do well against. Ball of FMJ rounds may stop the subject better under those conditions. If I had my last loaded mag or clip I'd be making a hasty exfill of the A/O(area of operations) as fast as I could.
Many agencies and armed security providers mandate JHP or other handgun rounds but I would use FMJ/ball type rounds in those magazines.
Clyde
ps: On another board, a member went ape-scat over my reasons for FMJ rounds. I think it's fairly clear-cut. If you choose another round have at it but in all honesty you'd have to be able to justify or support your actions.
Nakanokalronin
New member
.380- Prefer ball since penetration lacks in most brands of HPs.
.45acp- HP but I would not hesitate using ball and especially in shorter barrels or during winter.'
9mm- Wouldn't use anything but HP.
.45acp- HP but I would not hesitate using ball and especially in shorter barrels or during winter.'
9mm- Wouldn't use anything but HP.
wnycollector
New member
I have carried a Makarov loaded with FMJ and felt comfortable doing it. My Father-in-law carries a .380 loaded with FMJ. In smaller calibers (e.g .32, .380 and 9mm mak) FMJ is probably going to be the best choice. In .45 acp and .45 colt soild (FMJ or Lead flat point) ammo will get the job done also. Anything in between (.38, 9mm, .357 and .40) I prefer JHP.
I'm the last person you will ever hear saying that there is a wrong bullet or cartridge to use, because any bullet that winds up in the vitals of a perp is better than nothing.
In the case of deliberately choosing an underperforming non expanding bullet over one that will at best, create a far more efficient wound, and at worst, create a wound at least as good as a non expanding in the same weight and velocity, the choice baffles me totally.
Bottom line is that a fmj will leave a smooth and small hole, and won't do squat beyond that. it is inefficient, and that is why the hollow point was created. Any expanding bullet will also leave a hole but the beauty of an expanding bullet is that the holes that they make bleed more.
When is an FMJ an appropriate choice in a personal defense round? Heck, I really don't know. I'm baffled at the concept. We aren't talking about swat invasions, where you might be shooting through armored doors or refrigerators, or even trying to stop speeding volkswagon minibuses on a daily basis, personal defense is, in the huge majority of cases, against other lightly armed individuals, in homes, mini marts, street corners and so forth.
It's hard to make a logical, intelligent post to a topic like this, because it is so hard for me to wrap my head around the logic of abandoning hollow points because a jacketed bullet, once in every hundred or so exchanges, may be the more efficient round. The only time I ever met and talked with a person who refused to use hollow points, I was left with the same problem. he was dumber than my neighbor's poodle, and his reason for using the FMJ was that they looked "big and scary."
People should use whatever their hearts or brains tell them to use. It is still, when the noise is over and the bleeding starts, a bullet, and it might do what you want it to do. For hundreds of years, though, cops have died in gunfights because the weaponry they used was unable to disable their opponent, and what turned that tide around was finally arming police with expanding bullets. If a department ordered its personell to return to the plain old .38 service revolver with lead round nose bullets, those departments would go on strike. I agree with the cops, you won't be taking away my hollow points.
In the case of deliberately choosing an underperforming non expanding bullet over one that will at best, create a far more efficient wound, and at worst, create a wound at least as good as a non expanding in the same weight and velocity, the choice baffles me totally.
Bottom line is that a fmj will leave a smooth and small hole, and won't do squat beyond that. it is inefficient, and that is why the hollow point was created. Any expanding bullet will also leave a hole but the beauty of an expanding bullet is that the holes that they make bleed more.
When is an FMJ an appropriate choice in a personal defense round? Heck, I really don't know. I'm baffled at the concept. We aren't talking about swat invasions, where you might be shooting through armored doors or refrigerators, or even trying to stop speeding volkswagon minibuses on a daily basis, personal defense is, in the huge majority of cases, against other lightly armed individuals, in homes, mini marts, street corners and so forth.
It's hard to make a logical, intelligent post to a topic like this, because it is so hard for me to wrap my head around the logic of abandoning hollow points because a jacketed bullet, once in every hundred or so exchanges, may be the more efficient round. The only time I ever met and talked with a person who refused to use hollow points, I was left with the same problem. he was dumber than my neighbor's poodle, and his reason for using the FMJ was that they looked "big and scary."
People should use whatever their hearts or brains tell them to use. It is still, when the noise is over and the bleeding starts, a bullet, and it might do what you want it to do. For hundreds of years, though, cops have died in gunfights because the weaponry they used was unable to disable their opponent, and what turned that tide around was finally arming police with expanding bullets. If a department ordered its personell to return to the plain old .38 service revolver with lead round nose bullets, those departments would go on strike. I agree with the cops, you won't be taking away my hollow points.
One should carry only hollowpoint ammunition in a defensive handgun. Hollowpoint ammunition has much better stopping power than full metal jacket or round-nose lead, and stopping power is what you need when being assaulted.
The point is not to wound or kill the adversary: the point is to stop him in his tracks and make him cease attacking you. "Stopping power" (sometimes called "knock-down power") refers to a particular bullet's ability to incapacitate an attacker - the greater that ability, the less chance that your attacker will be able to continue shooting, stabbing, or beating you after you have shot him.
Hollowpoint ammunition is NOT more lethal than ball (full metal jacket) ammunition.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm
I choose Ball tho.....i.m.o.
Most gunshot deaths occur from shock and loss of blood, and ball rounds tend to make entry and exit wounds, whereas hollowpoints go in and stay put. An attacker shot twice with ball ammo will probably have four holes in him rather than two, and is thus in far greater danger of death from blood loss
.
The point is not to wound or kill the adversary: the point is to stop him in his tracks and make him cease attacking you. "Stopping power" (sometimes called "knock-down power") refers to a particular bullet's ability to incapacitate an attacker - the greater that ability, the less chance that your attacker will be able to continue shooting, stabbing, or beating you after you have shot him.
Hollowpoint ammunition is NOT more lethal than ball (full metal jacket) ammunition.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm
I choose Ball tho.....i.m.o.
Most gunshot deaths occur from shock and loss of blood, and ball rounds tend to make entry and exit wounds, whereas hollowpoints go in and stay put. An attacker shot twice with ball ammo will probably have four holes in him rather than two, and is thus in far greater danger of death from blood loss
.
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Gary L. Griffiths
New member
I think that if the FBI and the vast majority of Federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies issue JHPs for all the situation their officers encounter, then, yeah, JHPs are definitely the way to go.
The only reason to use FMJs is to comply with the rules of the Hague Convention for soldiers in battle.
orionengnr
New member
Exactly. If you can show me an LEA that uses anything but JHP, I'm listening.
(sound of crickets chirping...)
Yeah, thought so...
If you carry a .22/25/.32 (which I wouldn't) then you need all the penetration you can get. As such, I would use FMJ ammo.
If you carry a .380 (which I don't currently, but have in the past) this is the tipping point. Some insist on FMJ, others say that you can get both penetration and expansion from the right .380 round.
Maybe, rabbit, maybe...
If you step up to 9mm, there are a variety of rounds that will both expand and penetrate. As a result, 9mm is the absolute minimum I will carry. Once again, JMHO.
yep, that is what they will be, 99.9 times out of 100. An ex husband, armed punk, homebreaker, so forth. Very rarely will an american citizen encounter a combat trained, hopped up, adrenaline pumped, angry and determined killer who is going to laugh at a magazine filled with silvertips.
And, when that happens, let's face it, you face down someone like massad Ayoob in the throes of devil worship and peyote, you're screwed. Your fmj won't save you, because he's probably going to kill you.
I think it's been pretty well established that even professional combat personnel DIE all the time. Even against losers with their daddy's stolen .22.
But, as I said before, people should carry whatever their hearts tell them to. There is no sin in choosing to carry FMJ, but nobody should mislead other people about their true nature
I carry a 9mm, and worry about the idea of over penetration with FMJ. I shoot the heck out of it at the range, but carry JHPs exclusively. I hear that FMJ out of a 9mm will go through a surprising amount of material. I live in a city, with many close neighbors. As I understand it, JHP is much less likely to fly through four walls and injure or kill someone minding his or her own business. I know JHP won't magically stop in inorganic material, but every little bit helps.
Once I made the mistake of asking about 9mm V black bear (yes, I know; please don't berate me-it's all I have), and I think the general consensus was to load 14 FMJ and 1 JHP for myself when the first 14 only angered the bear. Since I'm not often in danger from bears (they scare the heck out of me, but are in all honesty fairly easy to avoid) I carry JHPs when hiking and camping, because the only time I'm likely to need it is the odd rabid skunk or opossum, or the garden variety two legged ne'er do well.
Once I made the mistake of asking about 9mm V black bear (yes, I know; please don't berate me-it's all I have), and I think the general consensus was to load 14 FMJ and 1 JHP for myself when the first 14 only angered the bear. Since I'm not often in danger from bears (they scare the heck out of me, but are in all honesty fairly easy to avoid) I carry JHPs when hiking and camping, because the only time I'm likely to need it is the odd rabid skunk or opossum, or the garden variety two legged ne'er do well.
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leetosaurus
New member
Either type of bullet still requires the exact same shot placement. The hollow points have more potential damage to cause than fmj's IF there's a clear shot to the torso and you dont have to shoot through an arm bone or heavy clothing. I'd feel just fine with either type of bullet. With a straight to the torso shot the JHP's may cause more damage, but if there's someone's arm in the way or a lot of clothing the FMJ's would more reliably penetrate to hit what counts, which is the vital organs.
Your assumptions are false; therefore, your conclusions are incorrect.
.25 ACP and .32 ACP in particular do not develop enough velocity to make a JHP expand reliably. When they do expand, they tend to cause a highly superficial wound because they do not penetrate as well as a FMJ. On top of that, the vast majority of these pistols circulating were not designed to feed JHPs, because they didn't exist yet.
If you want to question the wisdom of even bothering with .25 and .32 ACP, then I would agree with you.
EDIT: I also forgot to mention that some cartridges are not offered in JHP factory loads, or they are virtually unobtainable.
There are only a few good reasons that I can think of not to carry JHP ammo.
If you handgun will not reliably function with anything but FMJ, then you're obviously better off with that (though you'd be even better off with a different handgun)
If you cannot easily get anything but FMJ ammo in your chosen caliber, you're better off using what you can get (though you'd be even better off choosing a different caliber)
If you are using a handgun of extremely small caliber, you're probably better off with FMJ's because small-caliber bullets often have trouble both expanding reliably and penetrating adequately. For me, .380 and standard pressure .38 Special are the dividing line between non-expanding and expanding bullets for carry. Anything less than these two cartridges is better off with non-expanding bullets to ensure adequate penetration. Anything more than these two will have readily-available JHP's that can both expand reliably and penetrate adequately. Both of the afforementioned calibers can work with JHP's, but you must be very careful about which ones you use.
If you handgun will not reliably function with anything but FMJ, then you're obviously better off with that (though you'd be even better off with a different handgun)
If you cannot easily get anything but FMJ ammo in your chosen caliber, you're better off using what you can get (though you'd be even better off choosing a different caliber)
If you are using a handgun of extremely small caliber, you're probably better off with FMJ's because small-caliber bullets often have trouble both expanding reliably and penetrating adequately. For me, .380 and standard pressure .38 Special are the dividing line between non-expanding and expanding bullets for carry. Anything less than these two cartridges is better off with non-expanding bullets to ensure adequate penetration. Anything more than these two will have readily-available JHP's that can both expand reliably and penetrate adequately. Both of the afforementioned calibers can work with JHP's, but you must be very careful about which ones you use.