FBI to 9mm

[manta49]

9MM has being doing the job for over one hundred years and will continue to do so. The FBI and others are just releasing that bigger isn't always better when everything is taken into account.

 

[mavracer]

Exactly where did Dr. Riviello say what you attributed to him?

here

Exactly where did the US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health publish what you attributed to it?

and here

But when OldMarksman quoted Pincus, OldMarksman linked in post 23 to his source for the quote.

There's no link in said link to any basis so as such it's just Pincus' jaded opinion.

 

[OldMarksman]

The quotations are interesting, but if they are true they really do not tell us very much.

They are consistent with Rob Pincus' statement "having talked to many EMTs and trauma doctors, and examined a significant amount of pictures/medical reports, there is a negligible difference between the wounding capacity of the 9mm and the .40 S&W" and might even expand upon the scope of the comparison.

They are also consistent with the statement in the FBI report "due to the elastic nature of most human tissue and the low velocity of handgun projectiles relative to rifle projectiles, it has long been established by medical professionals, experienced in evaluating gunshot wounds, that the damage along a wound path visible at autopsy or during surgery cannot be distinguished between the common handgun calibers used in law enforcement. That is to say an operating room surgeon or Medical Examiner cannot distinguish the difference between wounds caused by .35 to .45 caliber projectiles" and might even expand upon the scope of the comparison."

They further help us understand what is meant by "wound path".

The do not address wounding effectiveness per se. In particular, they do not assert that all bullets are equally effective.

This is from the FBI Report:

In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 Smith & Wesson and .45 AUTO) there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing law enforcement officers and in each of these three calibers there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of succeeding for law enforcement officers during a shooting incident. The choice of a service projectile must undergo intense scrutiny and scientific evaluation in order to select the best available option.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by mavracer:

... it's just Pincus' jaded opinion

Well, it wasn't his opinion. And to call it "jaded" is uncalled for.

Of just what is it that you are trying to convince us?

 

[Frank Ettin]

Exactly where did Dr. Riviello say what you attributed to him?

here

Phooey. Your link (http://thefiringline.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=6169791) takes us to a TFL reply page.

Exactly where did the US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health publish what you attributed to it?

and here

More phooey.

That link take us to the abstract (summary) of an article entitled "Diameter of cranial gunshot wounds as a function of bullet caliber." So --

1. It's not the entire article and doesn't link to the entire article. So obviously you didn't read the entire article.
   
   
2. The article deals with a very narrow issue, identifying caliber from entrance wounds in the skull.
   
   
3. And the abstract also states (emphasis added):

   ...The minimum diameter of 35 cranial wounds produced by .22, .25, and .38-caliber bullet was measured. The relationship of minimum wound diameter to bullet caliber was examined using a one way analysis of variance. Fisher's least significant difference test revealed no significant difference between .22-caliber and .25-caliber wounds, while the .38-caliber wounds were significantly different (P < .001) from .22-caliber and .25-caliber wounds....

   
   
4. Thus nothing in the abstract of this article supports your contention, as you stated in post 49, that:

   ...The forensic pathologists cannot determine caliber from wounds even between the smaller 32s and 380s...

   
   
5. The page you linked to includes a link to the abstract of another article entitled "Comparison of gunshot entrance morphologies caused by .40-caliber Smith & Wesson, .380-caliber, and 9-mm Luger bullets: a finite element analysis study."
   
   
   • From the abstract of that article states (emphasis added):

     ...This study aims to compare the morphologies of gunshot entrance holes caused by.40-caliber Smith & Wesson (S&W), .380-caliber, and 9×19-mm Luger bullets. A fully metal-jacketed.40 S&W projectile, a fully metal-jacketed.380 projectile, and a fully metal-jacketed 9×19-mm Luger projectile were computationally fired at the glabellar region of the finite element model from a distance of 10 cm, at perpendicular incidence. The results show different morphologies in the entrance holes produced by the three bullets, using the same skull at the same shot distance....

     
     
   • In other words, that study apparently found bases upon which to identify whether the wound was made by a .380, a .40 S&W or a 9mm Luger bullet from characteristics of the entrance wounds.

It's apparent that you're out of your depth here.

 

[mavracer]

It's apparent that you're out of your depth here.

So let me get some things straight here.
The fact that you might maybe be able to get an idea of caliber from a frontal cranial bullet wound is enough proof that you can distinguish caliber from all tissue?
Even though the other abstract says " In view of these factors caution is recommended in any attempt to determine precise bullet caliber"

and my other now fixed link says in no undying terms "no".

Well, it wasn't his opinion.

It most certainly is.
"there is a negligible difference between the wounding capacity of the 9mm and the .40 S&W"
is a statement of his opinion and
"having talked to many EMTs and trauma doctors, and examined a significant amount of pictures/medical reports"
Is the basis of said opinion.

 

[mavracer]

So the question, if you really want to keep bringing this up, would be whether the bullet destroys--wounds--creates a permanent cavity--in proportion to its diameter in whatever it hits.

Does it?

I alluded to this before, in the comparison between the .38 LRN, wadcutter, and semi-wadcutter. I am under the impression that a long tapered bullet may not create as large a permanent wound channel in elastic human flesh than would a bullet of the same diameter with a different ogive.

That seems reasonable to me.

Is it?

As I said earlier,

Of course meplat matters and better penetration models will take that into account, of course also if they are the same weight and velocity a larger meplat will penetrate less.

And let me expand on this the better (more accurate) penetration models will have an adjustment for bullet shape and even take into account bullet deformation(expansion) and leave you with and effective diameter, of course this is of little consequence when talking about your premium SD rounds as they will be similarly factored so a 20% larger expanded bullet will still leave a 20% larger hole and with a similar increase in momentum will penetrate to the same depth.

And before we get back into your energy fallacy I'll point out that's the term used by Fackler himself here.

MacPherson has included an outline of the contents of his book's chapters in the introduction, as well as providing an excellent summary at the end of each chapter. He exposes and corrects common fallacies -- such as the presumption that kinetic energy determines bullet effect. In that section we find:
• Newton's laws of motion describe forces and momentum transfer, not energy relationships
• Damage is done by stress (force), not energy

 

[Frank Ettin]

So let me get some things straight here.
The fact that you might maybe be able to get an idea of caliber from a frontal cranial bullet wound is enough proof that you can distinguish caliber from all tissue?....

No. It simply demonstrated that the citation you offered as evidence supporting your claim was not, in fact, evidence supporting your claim.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by mavracer:

Of course meplat matters and better penetration models will take that into account, of course also if they are the same weight and velocity a larger meplat will penetrate less.

My supposition (regarding the effects of LRN bullets vs wadcutters) was about the diameter of the permanent wound channel, and not about penetration.

...the better (more accurate) penetration models will have an adjustment for bullet shape and even take into account bullet deformation(expansion) and leave you with and effective diameter, of course this is of little consequence when talking about your premium SD rounds as they will be similarly factored so a 20% larger expanded bullet will still leave a 20% larger hole and with a similar increase in momentum will penetrate to the same depth.

There you go with that again.

Newton's laws of motion describe forces and momentum transfer, not energy relationships

True fact.

Damage is done by stress (force), not energy

Well, not exactly. Stress is force per unit area.

And force is not at all unrelated to energy. Kinetic energy equals force times distance, aka work.

We have seen the phenomenon involved in the making of a permanent wound channel described as "crushing". I think it's more compacted than that, but that will do, and it is best described via energy relationships, even though one will find a medical doctor or professor of some ilk here and there who might try to contend otherwise.

The idea that crushing, compression, deformation, breakage, and/or cutting of materials is better described via momentum relationships (mass and velocity vectors) rather than energy relationships (mass and the square of velocity) is ludicrous, and it always has been.

See this:

In Newton there was no distinction (as shown above) between speed, motion, momentum and energy but quantitas motus (momentum) was the prevailing concept and it was proven to be conserved in all situations, therefore Leibniz' vis viva was considered a threat to the whole system. Only later it was acknowledged that both energy and momentum, being different entities, could be conserved (by Bošković and later (1748) by d'Alembert).

We can thank Émilie du Châtelet for the modern..understanding of kinetic energy – user121330

There is no energy formula ..in the discovery of conservation of energy are Joule and... – Ben Crowell
That's overlooking historical facts (Joule was not concerned with KE): soon after Leibniz' death, the quadratic relation was confirmed by experiments independently by the Italian Poleni in 1719 and the Dutch Gravesande in 1722, who dropped balls from varying heights onto soft clay and found that balls with twice speed produced an indentation four times deeper. The latter informed M.me du Châtelet of his results and she publicized them. Two centuries later, after Joule had shown that mechanical work can be transformed in heat, Helmholz suggested that the lost energy, in inelastic collisions, might have been transformed in heat.

(Emphasis added)

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/132754/how-was-the-formula-for-kinetic-energy-found-and-who-found-it/132770#132770​

Note that while human flesh is "elastic" in nature, the striking of a human body by a projectile involves an inelastic collision. Different meaning of the word.

As I previously pointed out, penetration of the body may well involve more than crushing etc. From Post #30:

But when it comes to analyzing penetration in human bodies, it ain't quite that simple. That's because not all of the body is solid. To the extent that some of the body behaves more like an incompressible fluid, some of the forces on the bullet are in fact a function of momentum--just as in the case of a canoe paddle in water, or a helicopter rotor blade in air. In those situations, things relate to the changes in the velocity vectors and to the masses of the particles of the fluid.

That was intended to refer to the velocity vector per se, rather than to the square of the velocity.

One more time: just what point is it that you are trying to make here?

 

[mavracer]

Well, not exactly. Stress is force per unit area

Just for the record you are disagreeing with the guys the guys who wrote the book on this subject.
I might add Duncan MacPherson is literally a "rocket scientist"

 

[Deaf Smith]

The FBI's move to the 9mm is purely economics.

Their justification is a smokescreen since they tell you there is no such thing as 'stopping power' but then give you a list of criteria which amounts to a yardstick to measure stopping power!

Ironically near the top of the list is the diameter of the bullet.

So I give no weight to the new FBI pronouncements.

Deaf

 

[manta49]

The FBI's move to the 9mm is purely economics.

I doubt the FBI are considering a change of caliber to save a few dollars. If that was the case they would not have changed from 9mm in the first place. They are looking the best all round caliber that meets their needs best, that is 9mm.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Deaf Smith:

The FBI's move to the 9mm is purely economics.

I don't see any reason to suspect that. Their recommendations are intended for numerous agencies over which they have no budget authority at all.

Their justification is a smokescreen since they tell you there is no such thing as 'stopping power'

Yes, and they go on to expand on that by pointing out the fallacy of the one shot stop.

...but then give you a list of criteria which amounts to a yardstick to measure stopping power!

"Amounts to"? They list, among "wounding factors", shot placement, penetration, and permanent cavity, in that order of importance.

Ironically near the top of the list is the diameter of the bullet.

Where do you see that?

So I give no weight to the new FBI pronouncements.

That's up to you. I do.

The substance of the recommendation is that, since the latest and best bullets, when used in any of the common service calibers, now perform adequately in terms of penetration and permanent wound cavity, maximizing shot placement effectiveness by reducing recoil becomes important:

The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.

Rob Pincus wrote much the same thing some time ago.

Here's the long version:

''--Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)

--9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

--9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)

--The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)

--There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto

--Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers"

They report their experience as it relates to the speed and accuracy of FBI shooters. One can reasonably conclude that that would apply to other LEO shooters.

 

[Deaf Smith]

"Amounts to"? They list, among "wounding factors", shot placement, penetration, and permanent cavity, in that order of importance.

How can there be any 'importance' if the is no such a thing as 'stopping power'?

Well?

Where do you see that?

B. Permanent Cavity:

The extent to which a projectile expands determines the diameter of the permanent cavity which, simply put, is that tissue which is in direct contact with the projectile and is therefore destroyed. Coupled with the distance of the path of the projectile (penetration), the total permanent cavity is realized. Due to the elastic nature of most human tissue and the low velocity of handgun projectiles relative to rifle projectiles, it has long been established by medical professionals, experienced in evaluating gunshot wounds, that the damage along a wound path visible at autopsy or during surgery cannot be distinguished between the common handgun calibers used in law enforcement. That is to say an operating room surgeon or Medical Examiner cannot distinguish the difference between wounds caused by .35 to .45 caliber projectiles.

But sorry, my wife, who has been a ER trauma 1 nurse, CV-OR nurse, head of CV nursing, and has seen many gun shot wounds says the holes close up due to the elasticity of the tissue BUT the damage is there. Larger things damage more. If that was not true then a .32 ACP would do fine as there is no difference in damage, right? No reason the FBI should not recommend a .32 ACP FMJ.

Now with all due respect to Rob Pincus, he ain't the only trainer in the world. Massad Ayoob, Tom Givens, Farnam, etc.. might not agree with him on the 9mm being the best thing since sliced bread.

You might be shocked to find a lot of trainers say to pick the most powerful weapon you can control (and conceal if need be.)

Deaf

 

[TimSr]

But sorry, my wife, who has been a ER trauma 1 nurse, CV-OR nurse, head of CV nursing, and has seen many gun shot wounds says the holes close up due to the elasticity of the tissue BUT the damage is there. Larger things damage more. If that was not true then a .32 ACP would do fine as there is no difference in damage, right? No reason the FBI should not recommend a .32 ACP FMJ.

Now with all due respect to Rob Pincus, he ain't the only trainer in the world. Massad Ayoob, Tom Givens, Farnam, etc.. might not agree with him on the 9mm being the best thing since sliced bread.

You might be shocked to find a lot of trainers say to pick the most powerful weapon you can control (and conceal if need be.)

Deaf

While I have a great deal of respect for free thinking people who can draw their own conclusions based on their own life's experiences and areas of expertise, you will often find that such logic makes no headway when dealing with those who consider quotes by some revered gun writer to be the only valid source of information or conclusions based on it.

 

[mavracer]

Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)

Just what bullet developement is exclusive to the 9mm?

9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

I'd love to see a link to these tests please?

 

[kraigwy]

I never could understand why people believe the FBI is the end all to info on firearms, they aren't.

They have their mission, local PDs have theirs. They may or may not be similar.

What works for the FBI defiantly wouldn't work in the area I policed. I worked an area (Alaska) where large animal threats were more common then threats from mass, armed and armored bandits.

Weekly we were tasked with providing security at (for example) school bus stops because large animals such as bear and moose (moose being the most dangerous animal in North American, injuring and killing more people then any others).

We also had to put down large animals at traffic stops. I carried a Model 28 w/LSWC bullets that were quite effective on putting down large animals. Sure there are better, heavier handguns, but not many cops can handle them. A heavy frame 357 worked as a happy medium.

But the ability to use the gun is more critical then the round itself. You're not going to stop a charging moose with a heart/lung shot. You may kill them but not stop them. Heck I've blown the heart and half the lungs out of antelope with a 150 Gr 270, leaving an exit hole you could put your fist through and had it run over 100 yards before going down.

Its the ability to shoot, never had my service revolver fail me if I put the bullet near where the spine in the neck connects with the head of the critter.

If you cant hit with what you have, regardless of what you have, where the critter needs to be hit, you're not going to stop it regardless of what the FBI data says. I personally witnessed two rounds from a LEO sniper's 308 hitting a bandit in the back and didn't stop him from doing what he intended to do (that case has been on a sniper show on the History channel several times). Had the sniper shot like he was taught, (I know how he was taught, I was his instructor) he wouldn't have got to the switch on his bomb.

Forget what the FBI or anyone else tells you what you need. Learn to shoot what you have. A chest shot with a 44 mag may not stop a bandit or animal, but a spine shot will.

This guy was charging my patrol car, (didn't like my overheads), he was brought down instantly with a 150 gr LSWC where the neck connects with the back of the head.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Deaf Smith:

Now with all due respect to Rob Pincus, he ain't the only trainer in the world. Massad Ayoob, Tom Givens, Farnam, etc.. might not agree with him on the 9mm being the best thing since sliced bread.

Some of those do choose other calibers. Las I heard, mas uses a 9MM for iDPA, and Tom carrie a .40 that holds 15 rounds plus a back-up gun.

You might be shocked to find a lot of trainers say to pick the most powerful weapon you can control (and conceal if need be.)

Wouldn't mean anything to me. "You can control" is not a go-/no-go proposition. The question is speed of controlled fire.
That's the basis of both Rob's recommendation and that of the FBI.

I can "control" a .45 ACP pretty well, but I sure can't put as many shots on target as quickly as the folks with service-size 9 MMs.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by mavracer:

Just what bullet developement is exclusive to the 9mm?

Probably none. You can get Winchester PDX 1 bonded premium-grade jHP loads that meet the FBI test protocols in 9MM, .357 SIG, .40, and .45.

The FBI adopted the PDX 1 in .40 some time ago. IIRC, the 9MM version was introduced a year or so later.

That's not the question. The questions are whether the terminal ballistics of premium loads are adequate and how well the different loads in similar guns can be used to put shots on target rapidly.

I'd love to see a link to these tests please?

Wanna second-guess 'em? I don't know if you can get a "link to these tests", but you can see videos of tests of a number of premium rounds, and the results of tests on a number of others are available.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by kraigwy:

I never could understand why people believe the FBI is the end all to info on firearms, they aren't.

They have their mission, local PDs have theirs. They may or may not be similar.

True. The recommendation is for law enforcement in general.

I would not expect them to put 9MM handguns on to defend people against large animals at bus stops.