FBI Sniper CAN Be Charged

[George Hill]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,26498,00.html

What really pisses me off is the sloppy law enforcement that went into this case.
You have to be a complete moron to have a situation like busting a guy for selling two sawed off shotguns end up with a complete raid including helos overhead.
Sloppy Sloppy Sloppy.

He said he didn't see Vicki Weaver... he was shooting at the fellow holding the gun that was trying to get inside the cabin... Again... Sloppy beyond words.

The judges in the minority called the ruling a "grave disservice" to federal agents. "Every day in this country, federal agents place their lives in the line of fire to secure the liberties that we all hold dear," Judge Michael Daly Hawkins wrote for the minority. "There will be times when those agents make mistakes, sudden judgment calls that turn out to be horribly wrong."

Thats true only to a point - and that is bull crap at the same time. This is okay at the Federal Level but not for the officers at the Local level? Or is this All Animals are created equal but some more equal then others? I think EVERY officer should ALWAYS be responsible for EVERY ACTION. This includes driving and even crossing at cross walks. You have to OBEY the LAW before you can ENFORCE THE LAW.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,26557,00.html

"Was this gal unjustly slaughtered?" Meister asked. "If yes, then somebody needs to be held accountable."

No freaking kidding - hence the need for a trial.

Weaver's cabin had been under surveillance for several months when the violence began with the deaths of Deputy U.S. Marshal William Degan and Weaver's 14-year-old son, Samuel.

Harris and Weaver surrendered after 11 days. Both men were acquitted of murder and conspiracy. Weaver was convicted of failing to appear for trial on the firearms charge.

Sloppy Sloppy Sloppy. After all this - several months of serveilance - they couldn't do anything better than that raid... and even then - Randy wasn't convicted.
Did anyone get fired over this? Heads should roll - and not just one sniper. This country is way to dependant on the Single Jackhole mentality. There is most often more than one person responsible.

 

[Long Path]

USP45-- who's to investigate terrorism? Local law enforcement? You think county and city cops are equipped to investigate international crime?

Computer crime? I get along with my local Sheriff quite well and consider him a friend, but he's not going to be able to do anything about kiddie porn in my county.

Who investigates international espionage? The military? The CIA? Guess what? They're FAR less accountable to the public than the EffaBeeEye. We NEED a national law enforcement organization, just one that has some accountability to the people it serves.

We don't need a GRU. Federal involvement will continue in national/international crime. The trick is to keep the Federal involvement totally transparent, and on a civilian basis.

George is right, of course-- it's easy to hold Horiuchi as soley responsible, but the actual source of the problem was FAR higher up.

But I'll start with Horiuchi. He launched the bullets.

--L.P.

 

[F4GIB]

Don't worry about the higher ups. When Horiuchi "feels" the walls of the state pen closing in, he'll flip and dump everyone he can remember in the ****. He DON'T wanna go inside!!!

 

[USP45]

Long Path,

Sure, i agree that local LEO's are going to have a tough time handling those crimes; but how do we achieve the necessary level of accountability that must exist?

Look at the behaviour of the FBI in dealing with the Boston Mob. There were people who were hit with the FBI's knowledge; the friggin FBI stood as a look out on atleast one case.

Sure this could easily have been the Boston PD. But atleast with them, they generally have to live there and deal with the neighborhood.

I'm not sure i agree that international terrorism shouldn't be handled by the military. Perhaps international "white collar" crime is a valid civilian task, but acts of mass violence (which will likely result in military retribution anyway) may be better handled by the military. Smaller acts of violence should, and would normally, be handled by local LEOs.

Doesn't the State Department investigate and certify US Embassy incidents by themselves?

Computer crimes and kiddie porn are probably ones where you are right, but exactly how does that get us the FBI? Sounds like the NTSB for computers to me. Maybe the FCC should take this one on?

Which brings me to another thought. Every time we have a serious travel disaster, we always read of the tension over justidiction between all of the Alphabet Groups, fighting over who gets to control the investigation. There's the NTSB, FBI, FAA, NHTSA, and DOT just to start. Maybe one of these groups should just let the others win?

But the bottom line, take Ruby Ridge, or for that matter, Waco; how does either fall under federal jurisdiction in any way? How the heck did we get here?

 

[bruels]

Do you suppose anyone in Boundary County has thought to charge Horiuchi with the attempted murder of Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris? It would add credence to the idea that Horiuchi feloniously killed Vicki.

 

[MatthewM]

George,
>>he is an honorable man that was tasked with a very difficult job.<<

Let's see, a real difficult job. You lay on a hilltop at 200+ yards and COVER your buddies. Unless there is a hostage situation with imminent danger to the hostages or if the Weavers were actively firing upon officers, there is never a reason to open fire on them.

There have been many discussions about obeying orders to fire upon your fellow Americans. Anyone who would follow such orders should be put in jail along with their commanders.

Orders from your boss do not free you from responsibility to God or your fellow citizen. "Orders" fall several steps from the top in what you should do.

God, family, constitution, golden rule; orders.

 

[George Hill]

Yeah - it is a tough job. And if you knew anything about what sniping is really about - besides what you see from Tom Beringer or Ed Harris movies you would know that. The man made a mistake and is going to pay for that. And if he is an honorable man - has been paying for it ever day and even worse - every night ever since that very moment.
I can appreciate your candor but that stops short when you insult every man that has ever held a rifle that had to cover his buddies from long range while they enter the valley of the shadow...
Your comment illustrates your ignorance in these matters and as such you should refrain from such comments. The man made a mistake. Its not your place to judge him and you shouldnt do that with out knowing all the facts. Taking everything from the newsmedia is to follow fools.
He is not a bad guy. He is a man that made a mistake. Let the courts rule before you hang him.
I suppose "innocent until proven guilty" doesnt apply if you wear a badge.

[Edited by George Hill on 06-07-2001 at 01:53 PM]

 

[AmericaFirst]

Lon Horiuchi, killer of Vicki Weaver

Lon Horiuchi should be tried for the "murder" of Vicki Weaver and the "attempted murder" of Kevin Harris..

Excerpt from Ruby Ridge account by Gerry Spence, partII

I'm hit," Randy hollered, and when Sara saw that her father was alive but stunned, she'd jumped in behind him and began pushing him out ahead of her. They had run, the three of them, Kevin in the rear, toward the house. They had run with their backs to the snipers. And, under my cross-examination, Horiuchi admitted that he was trying to kill the running Harris, for was not Horiuchi a sniper trained to kill, committed to kill in accordance with the new rule of engagement? And Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris, weren't they armed? More than that, Horiuchi admitted he believed it was Harris, not Weaver, whom he had shot in the first place, although Weaver stands about five feet seven and Harris stands well over six feet tall. And at the door, of course, stood Vicki, armed only with her ten-month-old child, Elisheba at her breast.

Excerpt from Ruby Ridge account by Gerry Spence, part III

And, of course, we remember that Lon Horiuchi, who had taken the stand, had testified that, indeed, he had intended to kill Kevin Harris, who was running for his life, his back to the sniper.

Yet the prosecution claimed that the sniper, who admittedly could see and hit a fly at two hundred yards with his ten-power scope, could not see the head of Vicki Weaver through the glass window of the open door. Instead, the prosecution attempted to make the jury believe that the curtains were closed.

But from my own discussion with Randy that fact seemed in question, especially after the government failed to produce a crucial Horiuchi drawing of what the sniper had seen when he fired.

From the drawing made by Horiuchi during an interview with the FBI at a hotel, on hotel stationery, he draws in no closed curtains at all. In the lower right-hand corner of the window we see two partial heads,as if people were squatting there.

Indeed, Randy and Sara had dived into the house just ahead of Kevin Harris. And it was Harris, not Weaver, who presumably had killed a federal officer, and who Horiuchi himself was admittedly trying to kill, whether or not he was carrying out the unwritten law that seemed to doom the cop-killer .

Be that as it may, the method of hitting a running target is for the shooter to place the "mildot" seen in the scope on the target -- harris in this case -- which places the crosshairs ahead of the target, thus leading the target, so the bullet and the target will arrive simultaneously.

Shortly after the killing this is exactly as Horiuchi himself drew it for the FBI interrogator "

Go look at the drawing. Note the location of the crosshairs. This tells us everything we need to know to convict Horiuci of murder.

1)He remembers placing the crosshairs inside the door window.

2)Horiuci was located such that he could predict Harris's path. He placed the crosshairs and waited for Harris to come into view on the "Mildot". When he pulled the trigger he knew where the bullet would go.

3)Where the bullet went when he pulled the trigger was through Vicki's head and into Kevin Harris. Wow a double hit!!!! This was a super shot, hardly an accident.

 

[George Hill]

I didnt say it was an accident. I said it was a mistake.
Again - another news report and hardly all the facts.
I have not seen the court documents and neither have you. And you certainly have not seen all of them.

Randy Weaver may have been raided for a chickenshat charge of selling a couple sawed offs - but he was no Joe Sixpack Average you or me Guy. What happened to him was horrible - but he went out of his way to call down the thunder.

 

[griz]

That isn’t a news account, it’s an excerpt from Weaver’s attorney. Obviously he is biased because he is defending his client, but there are several books on the subject and all point out incredible mistakes on the part of the government, not just the FBI. To address a couple points:
1.There was no initial "raid". A surveillance team (US Marshals?) was on the Weavers property in full camo. This was deemed necessary because Weaver was usually armed with a rifle and this made serving a warrant dangerous. Sammy Weaver’s dog started barking at the surveillance team. One of the team broke cover and shot the dog, which started the so called shootout where Sammy and one of the Officers were killed. That’s when the standoff started.
2. The drawing mentioned was published and is not a media fabrication. It may prove Horiuchi changed his story but it doesn’t prove he was aiming at Mrs. Weaver.
3. After the standoff started, there were written orders for the FBI to kill any armed adult on the property. Nobody has been tried for issuing that illegal death sentence.
4. Before the HRT got there, other LEOs saw the shoot on sight orders and refused to be involved. Other HRT snipers on site testified they did not shoot when they had the opportunity because the order did not make sense. So much for the just following orders defense.

 

[12-34hom]

Honorable man?????

Killing an unarmed person, holding a baby,

Yep, that's a honorable trait.

Mistake? you can take that one to the bank.

How much training has this agent recieved, and from his hide; he could not tell the difference as to who his intended target was?

If your not sure; don't take the shot. Simple.

 

[George Hill]

Exerpts are not all the documents... there is a lot more to this case. Just like Timmy V's case - the Single Jackhole theory doesnt quite fit. I have met the shooter in this case several times before. What I know of him is that he is a good guy. He could have fit in here at TFL easily. I dont know why he made that shot - but I really dont think he would have knowingly just fired a shot at Vicki Weaver. I think this was a mistake he made. I am not saying that this guy was a hero and he doesnt deserve to be charged - heck no. He derves to face the music. After all he wrote the tune. Problem is that there are a lot of other people that need to be charged as well. Such as the SOB that placed a sniper and gave him orders to fire. As I said before - even though Hooch pulled the trigger - he shouldnt have been there to begin with because of all the mistakes. The whole situation is screwed up and the FBI is hanging the shooter to save upper level careers. He is a scapegoat that the FBI is all to willing to sacrifice.
I can't believe you guys can not see that. Clear as daylight! There are FBI white collar types that are LOVING the fact that you guys are villanizing Hooch and not taking the time to look at the FBI leadership that was also at the scene.

Be that as it may, the method of hitting a running target is for the shooter to place the "mildot" seen in the scope on the target -- harris in this case -- which places the crosshairs ahead of the target, thus leading the target, so the bullet and the target will arrive simultaneously.

I see this as a concentrated effort to take out the fellow that killed a Federal Officer. I dont think he was aware of Vicki at all but was Target Locked on Harris... This the Mistake. Getting this kind of tunnel vision you can loose all situational awareness. The wasnt a fantastic shot - this was a poor shot because dispite his concentration I think it looks like he was too pumped and MISSED putting the bullet where it counted into Harris and just wounded him.

 

[George Hill]

Look, I dont want to be defending any Federal Law Enforcement anything... I just want you guys to take a look at just how screwed up the whole situation really was. The FBI used to use brains and trick criminals back when they didn't even carry guns. They dont bother to think that hard about bagging a criminal - they use overwhelming force no.
For 2 shotguns?
Thats totally bogus.
Why not be undercover and snatch him as he is walking out of a 7-11 or while filling up at a gas station when he isnt expecting anything? No - they didnt want to do that because they wanted him isolated up there at his cabin where they could use snipers and helicopters and assault teams... as much force as possible.

 

[Southla1]

"Tasked with his role - commanders issuing orders".......... George, I cannot agree with this. This would be the EXACT same thing as a solider executing unlawful orders. Makes him as guilty as the commander that isued the unlawful orders.
"Longpath" I agree that we need an outfit like the FBI. or even the FBI, but what we have now has grown too big for its britches, and also sticks its nose where they are not wanted OR needed. Keep them yes, but keep them under a tight rein.

 

[George Hill]

So the people that ISSUE the orders are not responsible?

Whatever.

 

[AmericaFirst]

Ruby Ridge AND Waco, he was at both

Well if Agent Horiuchi wasn't at WACO also then maybe, just maybe, a lot of folks wouldn't be as suspicious of him.

Ruby Ridge AND Waco is a little too much to take.

 

[George Hill]

You think he was the ONLY ONE at both?
Its the FBI MAN!

 

[griz]

George I agree with you that the whole situation was screwed up from the beginning, and I even agree that Horiuchi was not trying to shoot Vicki Weaver. But the effort was not to get the man who had killed an agent. I say this because Randy Waver did not shoot the agent, Kevin Harris did. I don’t have as much compassion for Horiuchi as you do but I certainly agree there is enough blame to go around on the Feds side. I still remember the FBI testimony before Congress when the man running the operation in DC (Larry Potts I think) said he signed the orders to shoot on sight but did not mean for them to be followed. It was bureaucratic double speak at it’s best. He may have been reprimanded but he was in charge when the ship hit the reef and should have had the testicular fortitude to take responsibility.
And you’re right, selected excerpts are not the whole story.

 

[Dennis Olson]

Horiuchi is guilty for more than Weaver...

I'll give you thress guesses as to who the sniper/shooter was at Waco. (The first two don't count)

Don't believe me? Look it up...

 

[scud]

Anyone who carries out "orders" to do such is even more guilty then those who issued the orders ( who are also guilty ) to begin with. This was over a stinking shotgun, if he was a honorable man he wouldn't have been there to begin with.