Family Felon

[WyMark]

I think something similar has been asked before, but I'm not having any luck finding it. So I apologize in advance if this is redundant.

I have a relative who is currently serving time for a felony, but will likely be paroled in the next few months. As far as I'm concerned they're not welcome in my home, ever. But if they showed up when I wasn't here there's just no way my wife would ever turn family away, no matter what.

I have a small wall safe in a closet that can hold my hand guns, but no gun safe for rifles/shotguns. I figured I can put them in my truck, lock the truck and lock the detached garage that the truck is in.

Is that going to be good enough? Or do I need to go ahead and start this fight with the wife now, and get it out of the way?

Thanks

 

[gyvel]

This is NOT the best solution, but, your best compromise would be to get a safe in which to store your long guns. (Depending on how many you have.)

I think this would avoid a major conflict with the wife, keep your guns safe, and generally just serve to "keep the peace."

(Disclaimer: IANAL.) Regarding the letter of the law, I am not sure who would be held liable if firearms were left unsecured in the presence of a convicted felon.

And I suppose it wouldn't hurt to let this in-law personally know in no uncertain terms that he is not welcome in your home.

 

[Doyle]

Are you asking about "legality" or "practicality"? As to legality, I'll let the experts chime in. As to practicality, the question goes back to what kind of felon is he? Is he the kind that could discover where you have stashed away the guns and easily defeat the relatively weak lock or is he the kind of felon that had nothing to do with either theft or violence and therefore would not be a risk of trying to obtain your weapons?

 

[WyMark]

The latter type, in addition to being well over 80 and not in the best of health. This felony is the result of something that happened a very long time ago, that finally caught up to them.

If they found a key to my garage and headed that direction I could probably go out and re-key the Kwikset Smartkey lock before they got there. But it's also the type of person who would visit just so they could tell their parole officer that I allowed a felon in my home while I had guns. Yeah, that kind of person. So no, the threat of this person trying to gain access to a gun is zero, but the threat of them trying to cause me grief is substantial.

I was kinda hoping that they'd pass in prison and never be a blight on society again, but the odds of that happening are decreasing.

 

[FrankenMauser]

Don't even think about locking your guns in your truck. That's just making them easier to steal - for everyone.

As to practicality, the question goes back to what kind of felon is he? Is he the kind that could discover where you have stashed away the guns and easily defeat the relatively weak lock or is he the kind of felon that had nothing to do with either theft or violence and therefore would not be a risk of trying to obtain your weapons?

Precisely. ^


I have a prohibited person coming to live with me later in the year, after my wife, apparently, invited her to stay here while the felon finds local housing.
Legally, I'm sure I could get in trouble for allowing access.... But, from a practical standpoint, I could leave every firearm in the house loaded, unlocked, and lined up on my reloading benches. The felon might drool on them, but she wouldn't touch anything. -(Partially for legal reasons, but primarily because she knows I would rip her head off.)

By that time, I should have a new safe to get the firearms standing in the corners and hanging in the rafters locked up; but it doesn't change the fact that the felon fears me more than a probation violation, and doesn't want to jeopardize their chance at a 'new life'.

 

[KyJim]

A felon may be considered in constructive possession of firearms if they have easy access to them and control them. Theoretically, allowing access might be considered complicity (aiding and abetting), though I have never heard of anyone charged with this. There would be a greater possibility of civil liability if one were to use one the firearms and commit a crime with it.

 

[kilimanjaro]

You need a substantial gun safe anyway, just inform the wife that before he can come over you have to go buy one. And, by the way, that may nix our vacation bucks later this year, or something like that. If we don't get a safe, I'm providing access to guns to a felon, and I could be the next one in court, job loss, etc., etc.

She'll get the message when it affects her.

 

[WyMark]

Don't even think about locking your guns in your truck. That's just making them easier to steal - for everyone.

I'm much more concerned with the potential of allowing a felon to access them than having them stolen. They would only be locked in the truck while this person is visiting, and the truck would be in a locked detached garage. Or maybe with me and the rest of my guns out at the range until this person has left. And we're talking about an 870 Express and a 10-22, so not much of a value issue. I have tools and other things in that garage that are worth more than these guns.

And to kilimanjaro, I think that's a great idea. I'm going to bring that up, see if I can gain any traction.

 

[gyvel]

Just get the safe like I said. Problem solved. (And the added benefit of adding security for your guns regardless of who is in your house.)

 

[Chaz88]

If you have a "gun room" put a lock on that and I would think you have made a reasonable effort to deny access.

My reloading/gun room has lockable cabinets and a bolt and lock on the door. They would not stop a determined person but deny casual access to anyone I do not want in the room.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

They would only be locked in the truck while this person is visiting, and the truck would be in a locked detached garage.

But your opening post posited that this felon might show up unexpectedly, when you are not at home. Therefore, taking the guns out and locking them in the truck after you get home is too late. If the guy is in the house and the guns are in the house and not locked up -- he has had access to them.

Would you get in trouble? Possibly, but it would be difficult for a prosecutor to get a conviction if he couldn't prove that you knew the felon was coming and made no effort to secure the guns. Of course, if the felon doesn't like you there's always to possibility that he might ... lie.

Unfortunately, the long-term ramifications suggest that you do need to have this out with the wife. Either she goes along with letting you buy a gun safe large enough to hold everything, or she agrees that dear old uncle (or cousin, or whatever) sticky fingers will NOT be allowed in the house.

 

[Librarian]

Frank Ettin has often posted on the issue - a partial quote

The point in that case, United States v. Huet, 665 F.3d 588 (3rd Cir., 2012), was that the gun the prohibited person was charged with possessing was not secured against the prohibited person's access, supporting both the prohibited person's conviction for unlawful possession of a gun and the indictment of his cohabitant.

See the long post here

If you can't avoid the prohibited person, it seems wisest to lock up any firearms you do not have personally under your control.

 

[csmsss]

Yep. Get the gun cabinet. You need it anyway.

 

[kilimanjaro]

So, you are not at home when the wife invites Family Felon over, or lets him in, whichever.

The guns are not yet locked away.

She is the one proving access and will be the one with the problem. If you are both home, arguably the both of will be responsible.

 

[rwilson452]

In one case I knew of the DA instructed the spouse to use a cabinet/safe with a combination lock and maintain security of the combination ( make sure the prohibited person couldn't get access to the combination) the spouse got a cabinet with a combo lock but it also had a key so the spouse got a safety deposit box in the spouse's name only for the key.

 

[Armorer-at-Law]

In the case cited, US v. Huet, the defendant is alleged to have done more than just possess guns in the same house as the prohibited person. The indictment didn't really say what "more" was done. That was the issue on appeal. But the court focused on the fact that there was something "more" alleged to make the charge of "aiding and abetting" stick.

 

[44 AMP]

It gets complicated pretty quick. Essentially, you don't have to lock up your guns, but you do have to lock up your guns. Clear?....

The convicted felon/prohibited person isn't supposed to go where there are firearms. If they do so, knowingly, or stay, once they find out, then THEY are the ones at fault. So, in principle, you don't have to lock up your guns.

BUT, if your guns are not secured, and you allow the felon access to your home (but not to the guns directly), then you might also be the one in trouble.

Generally speaking, if the felon is going to live in your home (even an overnight stay) you would be well advised to have your guns secured in a locked storage, one that the felon would have to break into in order to get a gun. Details matter a lot, but having them secured is the best way to go.

I have known several couples over the years where one of them was a prohibited person, and the other owned guns. As long as they were kept in a recognized secure storage, and the felon could get neither the combination or the key, it was allowable under the law.

However, as I said, details matter. Having them under lock and key, but having the gun safe key on your key ring, and hanging the key ring in the kitchen (or wherever) doesn't cut it.

For some people, family will always trump the law. IF someone in your household is like that, YOU need to go above and beyond the minimums, otherwise it could be really bad.

One gal I know, is like that. She's a sweetie, but her brother is an absolute piece of crap. No way would she ever refuse to allow him into her house, he her brother.

After he sold dope to an undercover cop in her house (without her knowledge, she wasn't even there at the time) the cops went after her as well, tooth and nail. She wound up in jail too. Admittedly she helped put herself there, but that's a different matter.

had she kicked her brother out (NOT WELCOME IN MY HOUSE), things would have been different for her.

You need to CYA, bigtime, or risk being a prohibited person yourself. And don't just take our word, or the police's word on what is enough. Cops are NOT a good source of valid legal advice. Get a real attorney (and sadly, pay some real money), and get the real story of what is, and isn't acceptable under the law where you live.

Good Luck

 

[WyMark]

Thanks for all the replies. Like I said the handguns are in a safe already, so they shouldn't be an issue. I'm not sure why locking the two other guns in a garage would be any different than locking them in a gun room, though. If the key is unavailable to the prohibited person, then the guns should be considered secured. I think anyway, but what a DA thinks may not be the same.

I'm looking into small gun safes anyway. One other thought I had would be to remove the bolt from both guns and lock those in the safe with the handguns. I don't use either all that often, so reinstalling the bolt before heading to the range wouldn't be that big a deal. Would that satisfy any legal requirement as far as rendering the guns inoperable?

 

[Woodslab]

Hidden room bookcase for the door. Under stair tread hidden compartment. If you don't have room for a safe.

 

[Dreaming100Straight]

I think a locked garage works, as long as the felon never has access to it when firearms are there. If the key to the garage is left laying about so that he has access to the \key there is a problem - just as there would be if the felon had access to the key to the gun room or gun safe.

There could be a problem with the garage being considered a common area. LE has a right to search common areas without a warrant if he is on parole. Just bad luck if they stop by for a spot check and you momentarily left the garage door up.