Extremists on this board?

[jlbraun]

I had a thread on this at THR some months ago.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=292650

Basically, crime seems to go up until you have >30% of households armed, then it goes back down.

 

[The Tourist]

It's too bad we don't have some easily accessible numbers on injuries to citizens in ratio KIA numbers from aggressors.

If you have a lot of crime, and all of the bad guys die, who really cares. I'm interested in safety and security.

We do have the FBI's Uniform Crime Statistics, but I'm not sure it applies to the debate here.

 

[ZeSpectre]

More guns, better guns will not do a thing except make gun crime more common.

I won't argue that, but let us look at what "more common" means. Pull up some statistics and compare "gun crime" to drownings or automotive deaths. Sure it'd be nice to have a big ZERO deaths stamped on the report but life doesn't work like that. Another aspect of this is the definition of "gun crime" which often lists the bad guys as "victims" after they were shot by the good guys defending themselves. Keep that definition and I'm sure "gun crime" would increase...at least for a while.

Saying "more guns = less crime" is saying you're willing to put all logic aside. Look at the state of Florida, one of the most gun populated states, and one of the highest gun crime states. So before you spew that junk to a fence swinger, think about what you're saying...change the item at hand. "More cars = less accidents"?

I can't speak for Florida (though others have) but I can speak for Northern Virginia where when I mapped out the crime reports (especially robberies and assaults) the flood of "pushpins" spilled from Washington DC, over the Key bridge and the 14'th street bridge into the ultra liberal sections of Crystal City and Arlington....and then peter off abruptly once they hit the notoriously Republican/conservative sections of those cities. To quote a beat cop friend of mine "yeah, the punks tend to skip that area 'cause they know people are armed".

As for that last bit, you can't compare the intentional actions of criminals to the unintentional happenstance of accidents and call it even. The last part of your argument is logically invalid.

Some of us here are so fixed on this failed idea that having a gun will automatically make you inviolable. Somehow having a gun on your hip or (like some extremist here think) an automatic rifle on your back will make you incapable of being shot or stabbed yourself.

Can't argue that. I've lost count of the number of times I've preached about the fallacy of the "one shot stop" and warned against viewing firearms as a "magic wand". But what does this have to do with gun control?

Criminals will continue to be criminals, they will continue to pursue the upper-hand

I'm assuming you mean "they'll continue to look for the weak and prey on them". If I misunderstand please correct me.

We hardly see machine guns used in crime because they are controlled.

Really? I thought it was because they are physically large, expensive, and generally OBVIOUS. But I could certainly be wrong.

Other things are in control of gun crimes; population, land mass, local demographics are the things REALLY effecting crime in general, NOT GUN LAWS.

The "other thing" in control of "gun crime" is CRIMINALS. I'll probably be gasping this with my last breath, we need to dump the red herring of focusing on the tools and we need to go after the root cause...the criminals themselves (regardless of what tools they decide to use). I have this wonderful dream (which will, of course never actually come true) where we treat people as responsible adults until they prove otherwise and THEN crack down specifically on the "otherwise" people.

We know the politicos are highly uneducated or willing blind to see that banning guns will have no positive effect on crime rates, but hey feel good laws are what the people (majority) want.

Which is why I thank God daily that we live in a Constitutional Republic. Because mob rule is hardly a good way to run anything.

If you don't like your local gun laws you have two options, do something to change the law, or move to a different location. Saying crap like "from my cold dead fingers" makes us all seem like barbaric lunatics.

I'm not in complete disagreement there.

We are a land of laws, the people decide the law (once again, the majority). We live in a democratic state, basically the majority wins. If you don't like that, then you my friend should do something to change your local law, or get to packin'...your bags that is.

I've got a political wake-up call for ya.
1) We're not a democratic state, we're a Constitutional Republic.
2) If you think the majority always wins and gets to make the rules, you might want to consider those 9 people in grey at the SCOTUS.
I worked in Fed-Land for FAR too long to have any illusions about how the power structure in this country really works and believe me, majority rule ain't it. Calling us a Democracy is a politicians trick to make people feel empowered. But lest I be misunderstood, I think "rule of law" is a GOOD thing. Gives emotions and "knee-jerk" reactionaries a chance to cool down before policy is made.

PS. Going on an internet gun forum preaching about an upcoming revolution does not help us out...

Again, no argument there.

 

[pitz96]

problem laws

Steal for any other reason, do 10 years--MINIMUM. No parole.
Hurt another person wilfully, and not in self defense, go to prison for at least 20 years. No parole.
Kill someone, not in self defense, and not to stop violent criminal acts? You get the chair, needle, firing squad, whatever. ASAP.

The problem with simplistic laws is that there is no room for exceptions, which I suppose is what those who support mandatory sentencing like. for example, the 3 strike law about stealing seems nutty when a habitual shoplifter's third strike comes when he steals a candy bar from a quick shop and he gets 10 years.

In Missouri recently, a guy robbed a convenience store (but didn't physically hurt anyone). A call went out for police to come to the area to search for him. On the way, a police officer crashed his car into a truck, killing himself. The robber was charged with murder and sentenced to life in prison. This seems over the top. I'm not trying to excuse criminals, but some common sense ought to come into sentencing, IMO.

 

[ForksLaPush]

..

 

[divemedic]

and with that last post, Godwin's Law is realized.

 

[DonR101395]

It's all about perspective. My perspective of people like you who are willing to capitulate my rights so easily are the extremist. I'm a more gun kinda guy, but I could care less what you do with your rights, but please don't interfere with mine.


Oh yea, I almost forgot, here's my military card. If you don't know what we do extra; join up and find out.

 

[Thunderhawk88]

and with that last post, Godwin's Law is realized.

lmao....had to happen!

 

[elrod]

There's lies........
There's damn lies..........
Then there's statistics

 

[Al Norris]

DIvemedic, I'm merging the other thread to this one.

 

[RedneckFur]

there aire extreemists in all walks of life, even when it comes to gun owners. I see nothing at all wrong with owning guns, and I think self defence is a good thing. I do think its going too far when you cary 2 handguns, 2 knives, a flashlight, pepper spray, and a stun gun on yourself at all times. Dont laugh, there are probably some folks here that do that.

A few guns stashed around the house for SD, thats normal. A glock in a ziplock bag stashed in the toilet tank, and a marine coated 870 under the sink is not. There are a few of these extreemist's at my shooting club, and it makes me uncomfortable that when to talk to them, its often obvious that they are "sizing you up" I think its just another way of living in fear.

I feel a political extreemist is anyone who's loyalty lies with a party, and not the person representing that party. I dont like straight ticket voting.

 

[BerettaCougar]

Antipitas wrote:

It is painfully obvious that you are not, nor have you ever been a part of the military... Or you would know that answer.

Al, I see eye to eye with you on most subjects. And you are correct I have not served in the armed forces. I did want to but I was promoted at my job.

I admire and honor the sacrifice each and every one of you made or make today. However Al, the military contrary to popular belief is not in Iraq to defend my freedom of (insert freedom).

We were not in Vietnam to defend anything of my fathers, Same with Panama, Bosnia, Somalia, you name it.. NOT FOR YOU, NOT FOR ME...I'm not questioning the purpose, just tyring to put it into perspective. Although this issue is not the topic at hand.

Back to the issue at hand.

I enjoy how some people twist what I say. My main points are this. We are in a democratic nation, we are a civilized land, a land of laws. The PEOPLE (in theory) are supposed to govern the government, and for the most part we do. We have elections that put the person who the majority of that locale WANT into office. We have a structure that allows states to pass laws, laws the locale want, or fail to fix, either by inactivity, or lack of giving a poo. If you do not like the way your local government is being ran, do something! Be proactive..we're so quick to bad mouth a politico, yet we do nothing. These guys..those that want to take your guns are being elected because for the most part we are pacifist, we do not (for the most part) participate in politics. So don't come to a forum smacking your lips about the new guy trying to butt bang your rights to own a firearm. DO SOMETHING, BE PROACTIVE! I am in no way telling you to start a revolution, or to start voting through a scope... I am telling you..ALL OF US, to be more active in politics, go to your local town meetings, and hey some of us would make GREAT mayors, governors, and hey I'm willing to bet someone on this forum would make a fantastic president.

So when you say "from my cold dead hands", or saying "concealed means concealed" when you do not have the right (within your locale) to carry DOES infact make us look barbaric. We cannot attempt to educate those who wish to learn more about firearms by also advocating breaking the law. It's the not the way we should be trying to gain support for our side.

Saying junk like that only scares the crap out of those who are not educated on what we hold so high. A bunch of extremists, are what we are reduced to, atleast in THEIR opinion.

Also another thing that actually hurts our side is when we spew these lame slogans or data that is warped to make it say what we want.

Gun's hardly have an effect on crime rates, this is a known fact...however saying MORE GUNS LESS CRIMES is bogus.

I HOPE this would help clear some stuff up.

 

[DonR101395]

As long as it's not this barbarian I'm ok with being a barbarian.

 

[Powderman]

Pitz, it's not over the top at all.

This is a prime example of what is known as proximate cause. Had the person not committed the robbery, the officer would not have been speeding; thus, he would not have gotten into the accident that killed him.

 

[animal]

BerettaCougar ...
More guns = less crime is counter-intuitive but not necessarily illogical. A logical argument can be wrong and counter-intuitive arguments can be right.
Ex. #1 … I do not perceive any movement in my position on the earth. I see the sun rise in the east and set in the west every day. It is logical for me to assume that the sun travels around the earth. Of course this is wrong, but logical, given the boundaries of personal observation.
Ex. #2 … At 45 mph I turn the handlebars of my motorcycle slightly to the right. Intuitively, I would assume that the motorcycle would turn to the right. WRONG ! Actually, due to gyroscopic action, the bike leans to the left. Now the diameter of the tire where it contacts the road is smaller on the left side than on the right. The bike essentially acts as a 4 wheeled vehicle would if it had small tires on the left and large ones on the right. It turns LEFT.

I agree that abrasive gun rattling and talk of armed revolt is detremental to "the cause" but I am not willing to concede any argument concerning gun control vs. crime. There is data which suggests more guns = less crime and I will use it.
On your assertion that the rarity of crime with machine guns is due to regulation. I submit that you have no evidence to support that assertion as statistics were not kept prior to 1968 when NFA went into effect. I suspect (but also cannot prove) that crimes with full autos were rare prior to 1968 for several reasons.

I believe that "pro-gun advocates" should attack by rational debate and supported by whatever evidence they can find ….on any front which presents itself.

BTW … I do not preach armed revolution, I disagree with those who do at this time, and I do NOT believe there will be a need for such a terrible circumstance in my lifetime. That said, part of the reason for the 2A is to allow the people the power to throw off tyranny if ever there is a need. From time to time, there is nothing wrong with gently mentioning this in an argument.

 

[animal]

BerettaCougar..
just read your last post ... Ditto to 99 per cent of it.

 

[TexasSeaRay]

I keep reading "armed revolution."

Who's advocating, supporting or urging "armed revolution?"

And more importantly, what do you (you being whoever is saying that "extremists" are preaching armed revolution) define "armed revolution" as being?

Just curious.

Jeff

 

[cold dead hands]

My concerns about what some people consider to be barbaric are nil. I do not eat meat maybe more one or twice a month because for the most part I am a vegetarian. Eggs and dairy are a part of my diet too.

Now, according to vegans anything eaten from an animal is barbaric. If 51% of my town is vegan do they get to vote out meat, eggs and dairy. If 51% of the states population is vegan can they ban hunting?

So, if ''cold dead hands'' makes me a barbarian to them...tough. I would consider a ban on culling the massive amounts of deer to be barbaric, because life for Bambi is going to get rough for a few years until nature does it's balancing act. I consider increasing your chances of hitting a deer while driving to be barbaric because hunters were forced to let their numbers grow unchecked. I couldn't give rat's patooty about what the weak consider to be barbaric.

More guns = more crime. Tell that to the folks who live in Kenesaw, GA. Almost every household there has a gun and those folks sleep quite soundly at night. I know a lady who lives and she says it is a great place to live. They have virtually no crime. The presence of lots of guns tends to deter criminals. The risk of eating a lead salad is too great and they they move on to greener pastures like Atlanta.

You know know what usually equals more crime? Having no money and no education added to stupidity. With exceptions for people who are truly screwed in the head, it is those who have no money, education or brains who are inclined to make a quick buck the criminal way. The rich and educated aren't mugging people in alleys and starting deadly truf wars. They commit their crimes the white collar way...you know...wiping out saving and loans, insider trading, stealing pensions, etc:barf:

If you truly want make a difference, sell your guns and donate the proceeds to your local crack dealer while making him promise he'll take the week off.
Or you can destroy your guns since less guns = less crime.

Those dang extemists. Extreme skate boarders,dirt bikers, in line skaters, snow boarders, surfers and other sports nuts. They are a danger...oh wait... oh you meant the people who don't like to be pushed around by the masses just because their ideas don't jive with the new philosophy that feeling good and promoting false security are the way to go.

Have you any idea how hard it is to get bad or stupid laws off the books once they are in? There are hundreds of laws that need to be repealed, but the politicians are concerned with coming up with new laws. It makes them think they are accomplishing something. They have no interest in reviewing old laws. All they do is pass bad laws that almost never go up for a public vote and then proclaim that anyone can feel free to challenge in court. Very few people have the time and resources to handle a lengthy legal process so they are forced to swallow the crap they are fed. All this in a country of law. Yes sir, I'll take some more of that rule of law please.

As far as voting goes, that means squat. So they get voted out. Big whoopee. Undoing the damage is next to impossible and these politicos just pull strings and get into some other line of work still closely related to their field so they can continue to do damage. Politicians have little fear and that is why people are starting to be a little more extreme.

 

[BerettaCougar]

I couldn't give rat's patooty about what the weak consider to be barbaric.

Obviously the other side is NOT weak, through the 'weak' sides actions they have managed to ban quite a bit of firearms. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

More guns = more crime. Tell that to the folks who live in Kenesaw, GA. Almost every household there has a gun and those folks sleep quite soundly at night. I know a lady who lives and she says it is a great place to live. They have virtually no crime. The presence of lots of guns tends to deter criminals. The risk of eating a lead salad is too great and they they move on to greener pastures like Atlanta.

Gun ownership has little effect on crime, other things are taking place in Kenesaw GA. Like the fact that the town is 9 square miles and only has 21,000 people with an average annual income $25,000 higher than the national average. 91% of the town has a highschool diploma with 67% of the town having a college education. These key things are unlike many parts of this country. Compare that with ANY major crime area.

http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/educLevel.php?locIndex=8030

You know know what usually equals more crime? Having no money and no education added to stupidity. With exceptions for people who are truly screwed in the head.

Bingo, nothing to do with guns. The criminals can still rob you, even if guns are banned, they can still rape, they can still kill.

If you truly want make a difference, sell your guns and donate the proceeds to your local crack dealer while making him promise he'll take the week off.
Or you can destroy your guns since less guns = less crime.

???

Have you any idea how hard it is to get bad or stupid laws off the books once they are in? There are hundreds of laws that need to be repealed, but the politicians are concerned with coming up with new laws. It makes them think they are accomplishing something. They have no interest in reviewing old laws. All they do is pass bad laws that almost never go up for a public vote and then proclaim that anyone can feel free to challenge in court. Very few people have the time and resources to handle a lengthy legal process so they are forced to swallow the crap they are fed. All this in a country of law. Yes sir, I'll take some more of that rule of law please.

Doing nothing, having the same attitude you have now is what cost us those freedoms in the first place. I'm not FOR more gun laws, I am for following current laws. Someone somewhere failed to take action, towns failed to elect the right candidate, failed to write their congress person, failed to do ANYTHING. I know it's hard to change anything, but we are an estimated 40-60 million person strong force, we span every race, every age group, every education level..the gun owners of this nation for the most part are lazy, we claim to love our guns, and threaten to "hand them over lead first", yet when some new law is in the works, we sit there...maybe make a new thread on TFL or another gun forum. Write a letter or call someone who can make a change? No way, that's too much work!

We face more and more gun laws that will ultimately end with complete gun ban, Reason? Mostly because we are not unified.

When we are at the range and we see people who are new to shooting, shoot 'gangsta' style, or using another wrong method. Instead of waiting until you get home to make a new thread topic, why not TRY to educate the person? Not in a condenscending way.

When we are debating or defending our right to bear arms, don't use slogans that translate to "I own gun, I no follow law".. This does NOTHING but attract bad attention. The law is the law.

 

[armoredman]

Please, it's "bear" arms. Bare means naked.
I see criminals every single day. They are afraid of nothing, cops, us, courts, lock down, nothing but one thing, the only currency they understand - pure naked force. They have no moral center, no sympathy, no pity, no remorse. Society and the 40 years of LIEberal leftist control of schools and courts have given us killing machines with no regard for human life, and no thought to consequences. The concept of delayed gratification is alien and repugnant to them. What they want, they want now, no matter what thier desire may cost anyone else.

The one thing most standing in thier way is the owner of that item they want - you. If you are armed, you posess the translator into thier language. Then they gauge whether or not they can get it from you, or should they just slink into the shadows and look for a more willing victim.

Maybe the "bare" mantra of "More guns=Less crime" should be "More trained and armed private citizens can equal less crime".