Explain the Optics Prejudice
- Thread starter Tallest
- Start date
Double Naught Spy
New member
Sort of conflicting statements - hunt with what makes you happy and then stating folks need more than is necessary.
I learned a lot time ago to not care what other people think is proper, appropriate, or necessary when it comes to hunting. Why? Because far too many hunters have the belief that if you aren't doing it their way (similar gear, caliber, optics, tactics, intent, reasons, etc.), then you are doing it wrong. However, when you put all the people together who know the "correct" way to do things, you find out they all do a lot of stuff differently and apparently aren't so correct after all.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
DNS, I'm talking about the perception of a need, as opposed to what's adequate for a clean kill. Need, as opposed to want.
I'm not gonna fuss at somebody wanting a scope above and beyond "adequate"; it's not my business. No way I'll rain on somebody's parade.
I'm not gonna fuss at somebody wanting a scope above and beyond "adequate"; it's not my business. No way I'll rain on somebody's parade.
buck460XVR
New member
I agree. Kinda a Paradox, even tho it may, in some fashion, to be correct.
I still also stick with my original statement that folks tend to justify/defend what they own/use. Thus when the majority of folks claim a 3X9 is all you need, it's because it's what's the majority of those folks own/use, even if it's not what's the best for them and their application.
Tallest,you asked because you want to learn.Its not about judging what another hunter uses. I get that.
I'll tell you what works for me,and why.
First,on big game,with iron sights,how far would you be confident? I think most folks would be good at 100 yds.I'm leading up to a general guideline,that 1X for every 100 yds is adequate for a heart/lung shot placement.
As has been mentioned,the fixed 4X was a fine scope for decades.Its still just as good.
Optical quality and having your ocular properly focused for a sharp reticle enable you to see /resolve well.
For hunting,my style relies on familiarity.The same scope field and reticle every time.I rangefind and kentucky with my duplex. Variable powers (second focal plane) change my reticle values. My favorite hunting scope is a 6x42 Leupold.( I live in Colorado)
I actually sight in at 300 yds.I can clearly see the diamond on the orange sight in target.The 257 AI puts the bullets in the diamond. 250 yd prairie dogs are no problem.For myself,I start thinking "Too far" about 400 yds. My 6X is good. How much more do I need?
Objective size...Most folks eye pupil will go 7mm in full dark,and about 5mm or less in hunting light. Which brings us to exit pupil size. Divide objective by power,you get exit pupil.My 6x42 has a 7mm exit pupil.Its all my eye can use.Its a great low light scope. But now,at 10X,to have a 5mm exit pupil,you need a 50 mm objective. As you choke down exit pupil,more magnification does not help you see better. To take advantage of high magnification,you need a large objective lens. Then we need high rings..There is more to this than having a big,clunky,heavy scope from oak brush to talus at 8000 feet...
I shoot best when I bring the rifle to my face and the fit gives me clear,full field of view with my reticle on target. I don't get that if tall rings make me lift my face off the rifle.
I don't need more field of view,my rifle and scope point like a shotgun.
I built this rifle on a Mexican 98 Mauser. With the scope,it weighs 7 lbs.It has very low rings.
The duplex is always the same.Its about 7 MOA,or 2 mils. So if an antelope body height fits the duplex,its about 200 yds. If he fits center to post,about 400. Its not as precise as a laser,but the trajectory of my 257 is forgiving of a little error.I'm not guessing the range. Thats instantly in the scope,all the time.
If I sight in exactly at 300 yds,the upper hanging duplex post is dead on at 100 yds.The lower post is on at 430 yds.(I know there are variables.altitude,etc) Most of my shots have been 200 to 300 yds.
Without reaching for a rangefinder,I can estimate range and interpolate a hold using that consistent,fixed duplex.It has become instinctive. I generally don't carry my Leica rangefinder anymore.Too much time,fumbling,and hand movement.
I don't think its prejudice. I have a package that,IMO,is elegant for what I do with it.
Sometimes,less is more.
I'll tell you what works for me,and why.
First,on big game,with iron sights,how far would you be confident? I think most folks would be good at 100 yds.I'm leading up to a general guideline,that 1X for every 100 yds is adequate for a heart/lung shot placement.
As has been mentioned,the fixed 4X was a fine scope for decades.Its still just as good.
Optical quality and having your ocular properly focused for a sharp reticle enable you to see /resolve well.
For hunting,my style relies on familiarity.The same scope field and reticle every time.I rangefind and kentucky with my duplex. Variable powers (second focal plane) change my reticle values. My favorite hunting scope is a 6x42 Leupold.( I live in Colorado)
I actually sight in at 300 yds.I can clearly see the diamond on the orange sight in target.The 257 AI puts the bullets in the diamond. 250 yd prairie dogs are no problem.For myself,I start thinking "Too far" about 400 yds. My 6X is good. How much more do I need?
Objective size...Most folks eye pupil will go 7mm in full dark,and about 5mm or less in hunting light. Which brings us to exit pupil size. Divide objective by power,you get exit pupil.My 6x42 has a 7mm exit pupil.Its all my eye can use.Its a great low light scope. But now,at 10X,to have a 5mm exit pupil,you need a 50 mm objective. As you choke down exit pupil,more magnification does not help you see better. To take advantage of high magnification,you need a large objective lens. Then we need high rings..There is more to this than having a big,clunky,heavy scope from oak brush to talus at 8000 feet...
I shoot best when I bring the rifle to my face and the fit gives me clear,full field of view with my reticle on target. I don't get that if tall rings make me lift my face off the rifle.
I don't need more field of view,my rifle and scope point like a shotgun.
I built this rifle on a Mexican 98 Mauser. With the scope,it weighs 7 lbs.It has very low rings.
The duplex is always the same.Its about 7 MOA,or 2 mils. So if an antelope body height fits the duplex,its about 200 yds. If he fits center to post,about 400. Its not as precise as a laser,but the trajectory of my 257 is forgiving of a little error.I'm not guessing the range. Thats instantly in the scope,all the time.
If I sight in exactly at 300 yds,the upper hanging duplex post is dead on at 100 yds.The lower post is on at 430 yds.(I know there are variables.altitude,etc) Most of my shots have been 200 to 300 yds.
Without reaching for a rangefinder,I can estimate range and interpolate a hold using that consistent,fixed duplex.It has become instinctive. I generally don't carry my Leica rangefinder anymore.Too much time,fumbling,and hand movement.
I don't think its prejudice. I have a package that,IMO,is elegant for what I do with it.
Sometimes,less is more.
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I know that I have a preference for second focal plane/rear focal plane variable scopes on my long guns; where the scale of the reticle stays the same size.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3ytDQom0Wg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h-lOZ4vxk0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3ytDQom0Wg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h-lOZ4vxk0
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Just for clarity,with a first,or front focal plane reticle,the measuring value of the reticle remains constant,but the reticle appearance changes as the variable power is changed.
The way that works is,at low power,cross hairs become very fine,perhaps invisible in poor light.At high power,they appear more coarse.
The advantage,the MOA or Mil value of the scope reticle is the same at any power.
With the more common (in USA) rear focal plane reticle,the scope "window" looks the same at all variable powers,but ranging and hold values only work at one magnification,usually the highest.
When I first put my 3.5 to 10 Leupold B+C scope on my AR-10 type rifle,I was doing some open ranch country long range plinking at rocks.
I was alarmed that a shot went WAY high,nearly shooting over the topof the hill I was using to stop my bullets.
I forgot the holdovers were good at 10X only,and greatly exaggerated when used at lower powers.
Its another way that,in the heat of the moment,Murphy's law can ring true.
If you have a"normal" USA rear focal plane reticle turned down in power,with any form of reticle that is used for ranging or hold,you will miss badly if your magnification is turned down.
If you have a front focal plane,GREAT! Your ranging and hold will be good at all powers...BUT, if you turn the power down for low light,your lines get very fine and features tiny.
When the ghost buck appears from the shadows,I don't want to think about all that.
My fixed power 6X is always on "The right" setting,and I can range,hold,and shoot without taking my eye away from the scope or moving my hands at the ranges I wll shoot at game,generally out to maybe 400 yds,usually 200 to 300 yds.
Agreed,at longer ranges,the laser,the Kestrel,the dope and the knobs all become important,and magnification is more useful.
Have the stuff and can do all that.Maybe on coyotes. I choose to keep my game hunting simpler.Get closer.
The way that works is,at low power,cross hairs become very fine,perhaps invisible in poor light.At high power,they appear more coarse.
The advantage,the MOA or Mil value of the scope reticle is the same at any power.
With the more common (in USA) rear focal plane reticle,the scope "window" looks the same at all variable powers,but ranging and hold values only work at one magnification,usually the highest.
When I first put my 3.5 to 10 Leupold B+C scope on my AR-10 type rifle,I was doing some open ranch country long range plinking at rocks.
I was alarmed that a shot went WAY high,nearly shooting over the topof the hill I was using to stop my bullets.
I forgot the holdovers were good at 10X only,and greatly exaggerated when used at lower powers.
Its another way that,in the heat of the moment,Murphy's law can ring true.
If you have a"normal" USA rear focal plane reticle turned down in power,with any form of reticle that is used for ranging or hold,you will miss badly if your magnification is turned down.
If you have a front focal plane,GREAT! Your ranging and hold will be good at all powers...BUT, if you turn the power down for low light,your lines get very fine and features tiny.
When the ghost buck appears from the shadows,I don't want to think about all that.
My fixed power 6X is always on "The right" setting,and I can range,hold,and shoot without taking my eye away from the scope or moving my hands at the ranges I wll shoot at game,generally out to maybe 400 yds,usually 200 to 300 yds.
Agreed,at longer ranges,the laser,the Kestrel,the dope and the knobs all become important,and magnification is more useful.
Have the stuff and can do all that.Maybe on coyotes. I choose to keep my game hunting simpler.Get closer.
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