Eliphant Culling tourist boycott

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phil mcwilliam

New member
Socrates, as a teacher you should know -"Cull" is a verb, meaning -"to SELECT in order to destroy or dicard"."Select" is an adjective ,meaning -"single out in preference".Cull does not mean wholesale slaughter, the original post does refer to sick, old & rouge elephants mainly being targeted. I also think that with capitalism alive & well in South Africa that any cull will most certainly involve hunters paying huge trophy fees.
 

Socrates

Moderator
You maybe right, Phil.

I'm not sure what the particulars are here. The OP does indicate selective culling. He doesn't say who does it, and how it's done.
I have sort of an epal, and a few other folks, that have worked for Zim doing such work. In those cases, they would slaughter whole family groups. The worst part was they were issued weapons that were not capable of clean kills, like .458 wins with ammunition that blew up on impact, or compressed charges that didn't generate enough velocity to penetrate.

Here's a list of the gentleman's writings that lives in Zim, and, has been a park employee in different capacities, writings and experiences:

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/487100714/m/380108868

They make great reading, and, you can followup at www.accuratereloading.com by asking him questions.

I hope SA is different in this regard.

Anyway, I think part of my rather hot reaction to the term
'culling' is the way it's been done in the past. I TOTALLY SUPPORT culling by selective trophy fees, and hunters being guided by park employees in search of the rogues, etc.

I do remember that rogue elephants can be scared off, but, it usually takes a threat of death to do it, if they are crop raiding, and the like.

On the otherhand, I remember Kruger doing a great job of 'culling' by killing the head males of family groups. This ended up with a bunch of teenage 'bully', destructive male elephants, with no father figure to slap them into behavior line. One of them killed 5 white rhinos, IIRC, and, that ended up with the 'culling' of something like every teenage
male elephant in the area. :mad: Makes me angry just thinking about it...

I despise incomptence in game management...

Great video! Thanks for the link!!!

Two GIANT bulls. Much better to take them before they start starving to death, and grant them a dignified death, and, a place in history..
I WANT that guys double rifle. Looks like a VERY expensive H&H, my guess is .500 Nitro Express, or maybe even .577, or .600. GREAT looking double.

I think that video is the best I've ever scene at capturing the incredible size, and power, of a bull african elephant. The last one is just a giant...
 

BrunoNorway

New member
Great video! Thanks for the link!!!

Two GIANT bulls. Much better to take them before they start starving to death, and grant them a dignified death, and, a place in history..

I think that video is the best I've ever scene at capturing the incredible size, and power, of a bull african elephant. The last one is just a giant...

Yeah. ther is some other vids of eliphant hunting on you tube but none that so clearly captures the hunting technics and enormous size of this animals as this one.
 

lt dan

New member
bruno

Bruno my friend. this is a video of elephant hits in botswana.my neighbouring country and also the country that have large numbers of elephant (too much by their own records), and low and behold botswana the prime advocate of elephant culling. and as i have said before in other threads most cullings (in botswana) are done with 30-06 and even 308. i have seen this and this is an open secret.

the way in which culling is done in Botswana is the same as sa since they worked together for so many years. the culling in sa is done by the snr parks guys with big game hunting status normaly ph's in the service of the parks board. culling consists of vet reports as well as tracker recommendation to which animals should be put down. as explained before this is a process of culling the weak, the sick ,old or handicapped. each elephant put down by means of culling has to be approved and signed of by the snr vet of that park. i have seen trackers, vets and admin personel hiding their tears before doing the culling of elephants they have known their whole adult live and even given names to those elephants at their birth. yet they know if that animal is not put down, healthy elephant will have to be killed. so they swallow their tears and kill an elephant they have probably known for years.

imagin these hunters and personnels sadness when they read one morning in a newspaper that foreign tourist label them as murderers. these guys and girls sat next to a sick elephant cow for days, giving her anti-biotics and looking after her for days without sleep , knowing that after a certain time,if this animal is not cured, it is their duty to kill this animal that they love. yet according to certain animal rights groups they are ruthless inconcidered elephant killers
 

davlandrum

New member
lt dan -

The fact that a small group of POTENTIAL tourists are against it is, at best, a minor irritation. Part of a large movement by people looking for a cause to protest, despite any science or logic to the contrary.

Where I live, there are people that protest cutting trees - despite the fact that they most likely live in a house that was made from lumber that was once a tree.

Hopefully any loss of actual tourist money is off-set by increased hunter money.
 

lt dan

New member
davlandrum for president!!!

Sir, that is the point. thank you! my question is when are these people( anti hunting anti cutting trees) going to be held responsible for their views and actions.

the sad thing is that they pretend to represent the German people, but next to english and american hunters german hunters are in abundunce in s-africa. the funny thing is that one hunter generate about the same money as a 1000 tourists.
 

Socrates

Moderator
and as i have said before in other threads most cullings (in botswana) are done with 30-06 and even 308. i have seen this and this is an open secret.

the way in which culling is done in Botswana is the same as sa since they worked together for so many years. the culling in sa is done by the snr parks guys with big game hunting status normaly ph's in the service of the parks board. culling consists of vet reports as well as tracker recommendation to which animals should be put down. as explained before this is a process of culling the weak, the sick ,old or handicapped. each elephant put down by means of culling has to be approved and signed of by the snr vet of that park. i have seen trackers, vets and admin personel hiding their tears before doing the culling of elephants they have known their whole adult live and even given names to those elephants at their birth. yet they know if that animal is not put down, healthy elephant will have to be killed. so they swallow their tears and kill an elephant they have probably known for years.

imagin these hunters and personnels sadness when they read one morning in a newspaper that foreign tourist label them as murderers. these guys and girls sat next to a sick elephant cow for days, giving her anti-biotics and looking after her for days without sleep , knowing that after a certain time,if this animal is not cured, it is their duty to kill this animal that they love. yet according to certain animal rights groups they are ruthless inconcidered elephant killers

Thank you for a much better explanation of the 'culling' in SA.

It is an odd saddness when you kill something big, and beautiful. At the same time a feeling of joy or elation. I firmly believe that as humans, it is our nature to be hunters. That does not preclude compassion for the animals that have provided us food, clothing, sometimes companionship, and perhaps shelter.

As is usual in life, something is not always black or white.
An excellent example is the person I posted to above. In one of his articles he goes over what the result of Elsa's cubs turned out to be. He had to shoot one, and the others never made it back truly into the wild. Since they knew humans, and had no pride, they were either a threat, or a thought to be threat to humans, and, ended up having to be destroyed.

On the one hand he had that as part of his job, on the other, he's trying to take lion orphaned, and put them together as a pride, and return them to the wild.

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lt dan: I owe you a bit of an apology. I went off the deep end, thinking that like in Zim, the 'culling' was the senseless slaughter of elephants by 'park rangers'. I've heard that such slaughters have taken place in Zim, and, are just another form of corrupt government payoff to ex-soldiers, friends, etc.

I also didn't think of how difficult it must be to communicate in a second language the complex facts that are relevant to a rather complex situation.

My objection to using small caliber rifles when culling elephants was based on the following. If you are taking an
entire family group and killing them, you are going to have
a pretty insane situation, with elephants running around, screaming, along with game rangers. This is a different situation from a very good shot carefully taking out one animal from the herd, with a carefully placed brain shot.
http://accuratereloading.com/nick/Ganyana/Ganyana020.pdf

Also, if the person does not hit the brain, the elephant will take off and be in the next country, and, you now have an elephant that is not very happy with people, a potential rogue.
 

davlandrum

New member
President ??!!??? No thanks!

I have way too much sense to take on that mess (also have way too many skeletons in the closet to stand that much scrutiny...:p).

As for holding them accountable, it probably won't happen. Although not every country has freedom of speech, the ones with protesters generally do.

Maybe if they had to get a "protester's license" and require them to pass an IQ test or a logic test.....
 

Socrates

Moderator
By the way, we have serious tree huggers in Kali. They are so protective, that they have stopped the normal controlled burns that the forest requires to exist as it has. The result is
the brush has grown so badly, last couple weeks we've had 1700 fires burning at once, in this state. That's NOT a typo. 1700 fires.

I do find it rather strange that a lot of this is park land, and, that the new governors budget was going to cut parks back by something like 80%. Seems a bit strange, doesn't it?
 

lt dan

New member
socrates- sir your apology humbles me ,please think of this matter no more.
seeing that you are a teacher please feel free to piont out any mistakes i make. english is not my first language and i dont mean to ofend any one.
any other questions you may have about s-africa i will answer as as honest possible, if i cant i will ask around and then give feedback. since i am a part of this great forum a lot of fellow forum members have sent me private messages or e-mails. mostly about hunting opertunities and pricing.

sidetrack,you may have piont. but i think art and the rest of the staff may have allowed this thread for so long becuase it has a lot to do with hunting as well.
 

Socrates

Moderator
lt Dan:

It is my fault. I see pictures in my head of 'culling' as Ganyana has described: a bunch of rangers, trying to circle a family group of elephants, or buffalo, with inadequate rifles, and most with little hunting experience, opening up like a bad movie, shooting everything that moves. Elephants wounded, running off, miles, and dieing, without being followed up, babies, mothers, all slaughtered. Humans, at their worst.

Selective hunting of the old, etc. by experience hunters, is NOT how I envision 'culling'.

The definitions of culling have a number of meanings, some that fit your definition, some that fit mine.

The video posted, saying that the last set of molars for a bull elephant came in around 50, and, that after they wear out, he's subject to a lingering, long death, by starvation is truly moving. He deserves a far better death then that.

Also, animals that have family groups, are capable of some sort of complex thinking, and problem solving, a language that we can't hear, generated by ultra low frequency sound waves, are by nature groups that create EXTREME passion in humans. Gorillas, elephants, sometimes cape buffalo, dolphins, killer whales, that appear to have more higher function brain ability then humans do, and more brain size for their body weight then we do, not to mention the larger whales, all create incredible passion in some people. Big cats do for me, as well.

In this thread, an outline for the issue has been established.

Why do we need to cull elephants?
What other alternatives are there?
That they have in fact been done, but, the elephant population has grown so big, that there are no other alternatives.
How is the reduction to be done?
I see no reason that it shouldn't be done by game hunters, guided by park rangers.
You could also have established that most parks have a 'culling' ranger, that is required to shoot problem animals, be they lions, elephants, etc.
You could also establish that the program people actually know what they are doing. Killing all bull elephants over 35 is NOT a good way to reduce heard size, since it leads to young rogue elephants.
Distance the park service from the government. I firmly believe the German tourists are probably reacting to the
government in current power, that most outsiders, and many insiders, and, I think they've even come out and said they are racist against whites, haven't they?

Also, you have the fact that the current SA government is one of the most vocal governments in Africa in trying to get the elephant ivory ban lifted. This is a conflict of interest problem, since most African governments, the corrupt ones at least, have likely a huge stockpile of elephant ivory. By lifting the ban, you invite poaching, another way to limit elephant herds, I suppose, but, not a good, or effective way of doing it.

I don't know if the problem, a very complex one, can really be addressed quickly. The key, from my perspective, is knowing that everything else has been tried, and, there is no other choice.

Your last writing, describing the rangers trying to save an animal, and, if that doesn't work, having to destroy it, is very moving, as well as showing the dynamics involved here.

While not the way I would have liked to address the issue, the process of discussion, point, counter point, etc. dialectic process certainly leads to a much better understanding of what is actually happening.
Thank you for your patience.

S
 

Socrates

Moderator
Here's a quote from one of the Ganyana articles, about why I'm not much for .308's on dangerous game:

The lion came barreiling onto the part about
50 metres ahead of us. It hadnt seen us, but
when it did, it turned and charged. None of the
normal cat crouching and tail twitching. Just
the briefest hesitation as it identified something
worth shredding. Then it came running, slightly
lopsided and not very fast. Sean's .450 Ackley made the
lion sit down, but in an instant, it was back on
its feet and coming.
Although my military ammo hit its face, chest
and neck, it might just as well have been .22s
for all the effect it seemed to be having. Then
a bullet hit his spine and he dropped. Another
.450 hit him in the chest. Strange sounds
continued to come from him as he struggled
to get up. The spine had merely been nicked! I
paused, took solid aim, and shot him through
the brain.
I had gone through 14 rounds!
And the thanks I got? Nil. In fact, the
veterinary department complained about the
brain shot. It made it difficult for them to
confirm the rabies!
Larer, Roy Vincent showed me a lion rife he
was building: a Browning BAR converted from
.300 Magnum to .416 Taylor. At the time, I
couldn't see anyone needing a semi-automatic
rifle of such a calibre. I do now.

A friend of mine builds .450 and .500 Nitro Express rifles.
His experience on cape buffalo sized animals is the same.
You shoot it once, the animal goes down, but gets right back up. The good news is with a double rifle, the going down and back up allows a clear, and good shot with the second barrel.

Here's Jack Huntington shooting one of his 450 NE 2 conversions:
Jackandthejugtheshot450nitro.jpg
 

Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
Nice off-topic article and picture. Rather than delete it, and since there's no real benefit to further "discussion", enuf.
 
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