Eliphant Culling tourist boycott

[Art Eatman]

The problem with the idea of addling land to parks is that people are expanding into areas that formerly were open to wildlife. Farming, mostly. It's a push-pull thing about food for people, quite often. Wildlife will always lose. Kill off a few billion people and there would be plenty of room for wildlife. Cut the U.S. population in half, raise only enough food grains for our own use, and you could probably dance back the buffalo.

Japan is about the only country that's had any ability to manage its own people, population-wise...

Lotsa woulda/coulda/shoulda, but the only system that seems to work for the benefit of any sort of game-animal wildlife is to create a vested interest on the part of locals for species protection: Money. When the license fees in part go to villagers (or money is spent in a local economy, as with our deer hunters), they then serve as protectors without being paid by taxation.

 

[langenc]

If some Germans dont want to visit then they should stay home.

I dont like some of Canadas policies and that is what I do. NO travel money to them.

PS I do the same to US states that dont allow CCW.

 

[guntotin_fool]

Socrates. there are enough elephants now to allow hunting without threatening the herds. In the areas where the tagging fee's are returned to the people, and the meat and leather are used by the locals, One elephant can be worth 20,000 or more USD to a village, above and beyond what the hunter spends on licenses, guides, acomodations, travel etc within the country.

These animals live there, the land is the land that supports them much better than it does farming or other domesticated livestock. In much of the elephant land, the elephant does the same work as a gardener. they spread manure, they rip out weeds, they dig for water when other animals can not, and more. I do not remember the plant names, but at least a couple of the more important food trees in africa will not reseed until the seed has passed thru an elephant. They will only germinate seeds in dung piles.


Africa has a serious population problem that will continue to get worse as long as pestilenc, disease, famine and war are rampant in the area. It will take a generation after those are dealt with before families are able to feel safe in limiting their offspring numbers. Poverty is also forcing people to have enough kids to ensure enough reach adulthood and get good jobs or till enough to have surplus enough to feed people in their old age.

 

[Socrates]

I agree with hunting. I think culling means you mismanaged your resource.

 

[Art Eatman]

Culling due to mismanagement is generally a result of politicians "rolling over" for the bunny-huggers. It's certainly true for the elephant...

 

[lt dan]

art, that is the piont!! like you said roling over by the powers that be. that is the point of this thread: the green people put so much pressure on the parksboard that they started delaying hunting to such an extent that culling is the only option. now that the parksboard is in a fix due to the presure put on them by the animal rights people these people are blaming the board for the culling instead of taking responsibility for the presure they have put on the board.

this is after cross border migration of eliphant was allowed as well as more much more land was aded to the national parks.

 

[Socrates]

What bunny huggers in SA? SA's new government makes Mugabe look like a Saint. Murder, rape, car jacking, poaching, etc. are at insane levels, with corrupt police, and government, all in less then 10 years. The culling is just the tip of the ice berg...

 

[Art Eatman]

Okay, Socrates, think politics + money: If South Africa wants to sell ivory legally, they gotta get CITES approval. CITES and its supporters are basically against hunting. Quid pro quo; tit for tat: Some time in the past, in order to get approval for future sales, the SA government stopped or reduced hunting such that the herds have now grown to a "need to cull" condition.

And/or: Since there is--or was--no hunting in Kreuger National Park, the herds there grew without limit. Strays and exiles from the park then moved into other areas. It was several years back that I read an article about the need for culling in that park--which is one source of SA government ivory.

Anybody ever notice how it's helpful to do a little checking into a subject before forming an opinion? The operative word is "before".

 

[Socrates]

Art:
Your problem is you think of the government in power as some sort of rational, well managed, understanding government. Mark my words, that once the actual information gets out, you will find South Africa on a corruption level that gets real close to Zim. You did manage, in your almost ad hom, to not address the corruption issue at all. My feelings on the issue of culling are created by the total abuse of white people, and the current ruler, who is pretty much on record as a total racist.

I'm quoting an email from one of our members that visits, on business, SA fairly often, and, for fairly long periods of time:

...I had such high hopes for the transition from Apartheid to the current
government. Mandela did so many things correctly. Instead of prosecuting
the worst abuses of the Apartheid era, he set up a reconciliation board
that offered officials of the previous administration the opportunity to
confess their transgressions and to be forgiven. Even police or prison
guards who beat people first and asked questions later could go before
the board without fear of legal prosecution. Mandela had black and white
assistants. Then, he retired.
Mbeki, the current president turned everything around. He put his
buddies into the highest positions. He hates whites. He also played
right into the hands of those who support the worst of the Apartheid
regime by showing that blacks couldn't govern themselves. Most Americans
have no idea what is going on in SA. If they did, they would, like me,
be gravely disappointed....

I know a number of folks that have been displaced, pennyless, from SA, by the new government.

 

[JohnKSa]

My feelings on the issue of culling are created by the total abuse of white people, and the current ruler, who is pretty much on record as a total racist.

Well THERE'S your problem! Art's feelings on the issue of culling are created by the issues relating to culling.

No wonder you two can't reach an agreement...

 

[Socrates]

You have a point. Mine is that since the government controls the information released, we can't trust that to form an opinion, one way or another.

It's rather alarming, sort of like finding out twice a year, since 1994, there have been armed incursions by the Mexican army, onto U.S. soil, to protect smuggling illegal immigrants.

You'll find that in another thread, here, and, it put me in shock...

 

[lt dan]

socrates, i want to give you enough info so that we can move on from arguing with each other to a point where we can hold the bunny huggers responsible.

so here is the info. i am a white male and own my own bussines here in south-africa. so for me to make a living is challenging. the minister of environment, Martinus van Schalkwyk is white. it is he who lifted the ban on hunting earlier this year and it is he that is now allowing culling on the request of the elephant experts also mostly white people. bunny huggers in sa have a lot of influence this is a common well known fact.

cross border migration is allowed under the new goverment and in my opinion they bought to many farm land to add to parks. by the way the land that was bought from the farmers was bought at higher than market value. in the bussines i am 90% of my customers are farmers and of those about 50% are game farmers.

the point we are now missing in arguing with each other is that the bunny huggers as you call them didnt want you or me to hunt elephant now that there is to much elephant they blame the parks board who listend to them, for listening to them. they then go further and suggest redicules stuff like denying the elephants water so that the elephants will be forced to move. move where? so now they will die of thirst instead of being hunted. the parks are full the parks that allow cross border migration are over stock. the bunny-huggers should come and take responsibility for the deminishing number of predatory birds(endangered species) due to the fact that the elephants are destroying the trees in which they nest.

dont be fooled by african politics. the sa government have stockpiles of ivory and if they want to sell it no organasation or treaty will stop them. yet they dont sell them. why? who the hell knows!

blame the sa government for what you like be even unfair, most of the times they deserve it, but dont forget the b-huggers part in this.

we need the overseas hunter whether they like it or not. it is now proven to them but they dont come to the party and acknowledge it. they rather play the blame game.

 

[phil mcwilliam]

"SA's new govt makes Magabi look like saint"

Socrates, South Africa has far from a perfect govt, but your constant referances to Zimbabwe show you are misinformed on international events. South Africa is a parlimentary democracy with a stable economy with single digit inflation for the last 10 years, coupled with GDP growth of upto 5%. Sure there is 25% unemployment, but compare this to Zimbabwe 80% unemployment, with inflation between 60,000% & 700,000% and the 3rd lowest GDP in the entire world. It is the Zimbabwe govt that has seized land from white farmers since 2000 & the "2007 Empowerment Bill" requires all remaining white or foreigned business to hand over 51% to govt. Sure people are leaving South Africa, but it is their own decision & South Africa has had monetary limits on migrating citizens for years. I travelled through both countries 6 months ago & South African cities have restaurants & shopping malls same as cities all over the world. Rural areas were similarly appointed. Zimbabwe is a 3rd world country with current government warnings against travel. The UN & world powers are considering sanctions against the political farce that currently exist in Mugabe's Zimbabwe.
With opinionated people posting uninformed information(just as PETA / Greenpeace) it is amazing that only 1,000 uninformed people signed the partition saying they would not visit South Africa because of the Elephant culling(management) program.

 

[guntotin_fool]

Socrates. What is your personal experience IN the Republic of South Africa?
How many times have you been to southern africa and over what time span?

thanks.

GTF

 

[Art Eatman]

"Your problem is you think of the government in power as some sort of rational, well managed, understanding government."

Actually, I thought I was saying just the opposite. How is it rational and understanding to have policies which lead to the need for culling? The only rationality in almost any government, anywhere, is how to acquire more power, money and perks for the folks on top.

 

[Socrates]

"Your problem is you think of the government in power as some sort of rational, well managed, understanding government."

Actually, I thought I was saying just the opposite. How is it rational and understanding to have policies which lead to the need for culling? The only rationality in almost any government, anywhere, is how to acquire more power, money and perks for the folks on top.

Then we agree.

Socrates. What is your personal experience IN the Republic of South Africa?
How many times have you been to southern africa and over what time span?

thanks.

GTF

This thread was posted by a South African, in an American gun forum, about Germans boycotting SA because of their policies. As I said earlier, my only contact is not being able to go hand gun hunting in Zim, because you can't fly into SA with a handgun.

This thread is not about me.

PM: The new president's only been in power a few years. Give him the 25 years Mugabe's had, and, then we'll talk...
That does bring up a question:
In SA how long is the president elected for? Also, what's the odds of the military taking over the government? The first step is usually rampant crime, corrupt police, and, from the reports from people that live, visit, or are leaving, that part is already in place. Then, the military steps in to 'save' the country, and, makes it 20 times worse...

 

[lt dan]

et tu brute?

socrates, now finally after your last reply it is obvious that you argue for the sake of argument, if you visit here you will see to your own shame that most of the things you have said is far from the truth. but you decided to hi-jack an anti animal rights thread thus i must conclude by means of divide and conquer that you are an bunny hugger in disguise. i will listen to my hunter instincts and avoid you as a distraction from now on.

thus my real hunter friends what do you think of the bunny huggers that dont like hunting but then play the blame game when animal numbers go out of control?

 

[Socrates]

You live there. You made a post.

however now 1000 germans have signed a letter stating that they will not visit south-africa if this blood bath continues. they go futher and say that they find it unacceptable to think that an animal they are whatching today may be murderd the next day. they sugest that non lethal methods to frighten elephants away from certain region should be used. this is the first time i have heard the words frighten and elephant in on sentence. futhermore , what is that? -non leathal deterrand for an elephant. but this organisation(people for animal rights-Germany) must know how this tactic work so we must stand back and let them send a few volunteers to come and shoo the elephants away from the wrong regions.

I made a response based on the limited information I have about the current situation in SA.

You want an opinion on elephant culling, and game management, and I give you one. I don't like culling. It's poor management.
Hunting is far superior. Hunters provide huge revenue for Africa, and, the countries that have preserved their wildlife most successfully are the countries that allow hunting.
It's very simple. When the government realizes those white rhinos are worth 150k, and every elephant is at least a 10k license fee, just for the attempt, then people start viewing the animals as a resource, and protect them.
Why have game rangers shooting elephants? Why not give specific licenses to shoot the type of elephants that need to be culled?

Zim issues permits for rogues, cows, etc. when necessary.
Why doesn't SA do the same, or do they?

I agree with the Germans, but, for different reasons. I think that culling elephants is the WORST way to manage game, and, is really mismanagement.

If it has to be done, then do it. :barf:

As for your personal attacks, I am a game preservation advocate. I realize that the best way to do that is to promote hunting animals. Without having value, given by
hunting fees, and licenses, animals are viewed as a nusance to be removed. Yes, I am pro-hunting, because without it, I believe Africa will loose it's wildlife.

As for the Germans that are pro-wildlife: I understand why people would not enjoy looking at animals, then coming back the next day and seeing the entire family group, in a giant pile, having been shot by a bunch of game rangers.

I also think that part of the problem is the game parks allow the animals to get too comfortable with humans, and, the elephants loose their fear, and, are more inclined to do damage to farms, etc.

What do you think of a seasonal hunting time for the parks? Adjust the hunting season length to the number of animals that need to be taken out?

Or, just base it on how many successful hunts are made, and, what the total population is?

For instance, right now, you could have Kruger wide open for hunting until the numbers are down far enough so that the park area can support them?

You could divide the year into bunny-hugger, watcher time, and, hunters time.

So, if all other alternatives have been done to solve your problem, and, culling is the last resort, then do it.
However, I can also understand the feeling of people who enjoy watching animals, and, how they get emotionally attached to them. I can understand why they would find culling a good reason not to go to your parks.

It's also possible that bunny huggers might boycott due to the hunting, if it's allowed. But, that's life. The revenue from hunting is far greater then from bunny-huggers, isn't it?

 

[guntotin_fool]

Quote:
Socrates. What is your personal experience IN the Republic of South Africa?
How many times have you been to southern africa and over what time span?

thanks.

GTF
This thread was posted by a South African, in an American gun forum, about Germans boycotting SA because of their policies. As I said earlier, my only contact is not being able to go hand gun hunting in Zim, because you can't fly into SA with a handgun.

This thread is not about me.

Please note from the above pic, there are many ways to get into Zimbabwe without blaming RSA for not allowing your handgun in.

Second, for someone who has never been there, never even traveled to the continent, you have an awful lot of pent up anger and irrational animosity regarding this issue.

This thread was posted by a South African, in an American gun forum, about Germans boycotting SA because of their policies

Third, arguing about something you are misinformed about, with someone who by living there, has more cred about the issue than you ever will have, is simply juvenile.

not being able to go hand gun hunting in Zim, because you can't fly into SA with a handgun.

Lastly, This makes no sense at all, this is like blaming Canada for the US wanting to drill for oil in ANWAR.

While Mugabe is quite possibly insane, making comments about one country and its behaviors and blaming a third party country for those actions leads one to think that perhaps you might be in need of the services of this websight.

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/


You made the thread about you, by arguing against logic, and when you lost there, by making it about race, which is was not, and then by making it a personal vendetta.

 

[Socrates]

The standard has been to fly into Johannsburg, and, drive into Zim. If you have an alternative route, that is cost effective, feel free to post it. I have a group of friend that are going next year, and, they would be very interested.

Yes, I have passion when I see through poor management, excellent game animals slaughtered, when they could have been hunted. I also have an aversion to corrupt governments.

I have no personal vendetta. I answer the question with what knowledge I have about the topic posted. If the OP wanted experts on the subject, he wouldn't have posted it in a board that's 3000 miles from the evidence on the issue. I really wonder why he didn't post in another forum,
www.accuratereloading.com

these gentleman have extensive knowledge of hunting in SA and Zim, and Africa for that matter.

Contrary to your opinion, and, lack of information, others here have posted valuable information, that has increased my education, and slightly changed my view of the country, and the situation. Other members have been kind enough to send me pages of email, giving evidence of the problems in SA, and, some of the wonderful things as well. I would like to thank those people for taking their time to increase my knowledge of SA, and the surrounding countries.

The original poster made this about race, or country, since he's trying to get some sort of condemnation out of our membership for a bunch of Germans that aren't spending their money in his country, because of culling practices.
He's also making fun of their suggestions. Since that's the case, I do wonder why Art let this thread ever get off the groun.

They, and I, agree that culling is a worst possible solution to elephant over-population, and, a waste of a very valuable animal.

As for the government: you have your opinion, I have mine. Mine is based on a number of emails over the years, from people who have lived in SA prior to the change in government. Also to a couple posters here that visit on a regular basis.

I don't EVER look at it as winning and loosing. The dialectic process provides an excellent way to improve your knowledge about certain situations. The internet provides access to information that I would never have otherwise.

I want to thank the Firing Line, and, Accuratereloading.com and their memberships for educating me on this area and subject. It's a big win for me to gather more information about the issue at hand. You see I teach children. It's a hard sell to contradict our communist/socialist bunny hugging text books, and, to do so, I need evidence and reasons to justify my position that hunting is the best alternative for game management, even in parks. It's counter-intuitive that allowing hunting is actually the best form of game conservation, and, that it's likely to insure the existence of the animals, more so then parks, etc. will.

I hope that by playing Devil's advocate the next time the OP posts such a poorly structured post, and fails to include vital information, he knows it. Nothing is worse then trying to present a decent response to someone, in your second language, and, fail to make a decent argument.

If for some reason, the OP is actually using this forum to develop ideas to respond to the German boycott, it would be in all our best interests if he laid out a much better statement of fact supporting his theory, justifying the culling.