Eliphant Culling tourist boycott

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lt dan

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for many years the parks board from south-africa has brought the eliphant back from extinction. this has been done with the corporation of goverment universities hunters vets game farmers and even the general public.

now after several decades this program is so afective that the elephant population exploded. this means trouble. this is not a racoon pest. what a racoon waists gets sorted out by maggots. what an elephant waist means starvation for several other species. amongst whom are endangered.

due to the hard work and effort over decades there is now not one but thousand of elephant to much. rather to much than none at all, yes? now that same people who work to save the animal are culling the ones that is sick to old or the ones that are overly destructive to the region.

can i repeat myself? the culling now ensures the longivity of the elephant as well as several, i say again several other species. or do people critizising these cullings realy believe that people who toiled their whole adult live to safe a species now sudenly decides to kill a few.

however now 1000 germans have signed a letter stating that they will not visit south-africa if this blood bath continues. they go futher and say that they find it unacceptable to think that an animal they are whatching today may be murderd the next day. they sugest that non lethal methods to frighten elephants away from certain region should be used. this is the first time i have heard the words frighten and elephant in on sentence. futhermore , what is that? -non leathal deterrand for an elephant. but this organisation(people for animal rights-Germany) must know how this tactic work so we must stand back and let them send a few volunteers to come and shoo the elephants away from the wrong regions.

allso remember that they refuse to watch animals, that can die the next day. i sure hope then that the lions have received this same letter because lets face it they are a bunch that violate animal rights daily.

i know that german hunters will not agree with this letter and i have nothing against the german people hell i am maried to one. no these 1000 letter signers are found all over the world.

what does the good members of the firing line think of this?

p.s the letter was addressed to the minister of nature and tourism, the same dapartmend that ensured the success of the elpehant managing program. the minister thanked the letter writers for their concern.
 
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Musketeer

New member
Read "Death in the Tall Grass". Capstick gives a great description of his time culling elephant herds as part of those nations' conservation efforts. Pretty hairy.

If I remember correctly they had to kill the ENTIRE family group in one go. If part of the herd escaped and made its way to another herd it would send them into a panic which could have a domino effect across the park.
 

Socrates

Moderator
I think the problem in Africa is too many people. Seems God has been trying to sort this out, and, we keep screwing it up.

No more foreign aid, period. I have no faith in the new South African government to manage anything, much less the culling of elephants.

There is NO reason to cull. Hunters would be more then happy to hunt, pay for, and kill enough elephants to keep the costs down. In fact, this is a great waste of a SA resource.

Somehow, slaughtering a bunch of elephants at once makes no sense to me, in that the possibility for meat waste is present, and, the failure to followup injured elephants is also a problem.

If the South African government feels it necessary to take
land from certain groups, and give it to others, I see no reason they can't do the same, but give it to the longest standing residents of that country: Rhinos and elephants...

Instead of culling elephants, give the land around the park back to the elephants, and get the humans out of the way.

You want to really reduce global warming? Get rid of half the population of the planet. THAT will reduce global warming...

I can't help but think in retrospect, that the German hunters are also reacting to the general policies of the South African government, that are making hunting more and more difficult. Friend of mine who designs heavy hand gun cartridges, Jack Huntington, has dreamed of taking big game with his .500JRH, in Zim. Since to get to Zim, you have to fly into SA, and SA won't allow handguns, he's stopped from his hunt.

South Africa is slowly but surely writing a bunch of laws that will eventually stop hunters from coming to their country all together. Hunting is, as a general rule, for many other countries, a huge cash cow, and, a revenue that you can screw up and loose, by making your country unfriendly to hunters. South Africa is doing this.

Also, since many Germans who have lived in South Africa are being kicked out of the country, with their assets stolen by that government, I can totally understand why Germans would react in such a manner to a government that I think, certainly deserves their ire.
 

Socrates

Moderator
Did a little research, and found this article, on idiots culling lions, and wondering why 3 years later they have an elephant problem:
Lions culled at South African park
By Stephen Bevan in Pretoria
(Filed: 18/12/2005)

South Africa's game reserves have secretly started culling lions in an attempt to tackle what they claim is a growing population crisis, the Sunday Telegraph has discovered.



One of the largest private reserves in the country, Welgevonden in Limpopo province, which covers more than 130 square miles, has confirmed that it has destroyed five lions - a lioness and its four young.

Two other reserves - Entabeni, also in Limpopo and Phinda in KwaZulu-Natal - said they will be forced to cull if they cannot sell surplus animals. Madikwe in North West Province confirmed it is an option they will have to consider

The reserves say they have no choice but to kill healthy animals as numbers have grown beyond their capacity - and they cannot sell them because there are too many on the market.

Wildlife campaigners have reacted with dismay. Will Travers, the director of the Born Free Foundation said he was "deeply saddened" and blamed earlier misjudgments.

"As always in these situations the animals come off worse," he said. "Across Africa as a whole, it is estimated that the lion population has fallen from around 100,000 animals 20 years ago to between 20,000 and 30,000 animals now. So what is happening in South Africa is atypical. Establishing small private reserves is almost certainly unsustainable for any kind of naturally balanced lion population."

In their natural state, numbers are kept down by the arrival of a new dominant male from outside, which asserts itself by killing the pride leader and all of its offspring.

The cull revelation comes as the South African government is considering a proposal to reverse an 11-year ban on the culling of elephants after claims that overpopulation in the Kruger national park is damaging the environment.

Andrew Parker, the chief executive at Welgevonden, said the five lions had been destroyed humanely under the supervision of the South African National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.

"Our game numbers have been declining rapidly, whereas the predator numbers have been increasing in almost inverse proportion. For the last year we've been looking to find alternative homes for the lions. We're not trying to make money out of it, we're giving the lions away."

He said culling had been suspended while possible buyers were considered, but added: "We can't let it drag on for ever."

The reserves are using implanted contraceptives in lionesses to control numbers, but say that this is not totally effective.

Hunting is a possible solution for Jan Lessing, the manager at the 10,000-acre Entabeni reserve. "The first option is to try to sell them," he said. "If we don't get anybody interested, the second option is to see if we can hunt them. If we don't get permission for that, we'll have to cull them."

Trophy hunters will pay up to 50,000 rand (£4,500) to shoot a lion, more than 10 times the price it would fetch if sold.

I think all aid, all tourism should stop for 30 years, and let God sort out Africa's problems...:mad:
 

Socrates

Moderator
At the rate South Africa is going, they will soon have money that looks like this:
zimd10.jpg


One really must wonder how a country with such incredible poverty and crime can have such great resources, and, not have those resources reflect in the living standard of the people. Are the diamonds and gold gone???

It's been nearly 10 years since the government change, and, it's just getting far worse, not better...
 

Socrates

Moderator
By the way, I much resent your misrepresentation that the only solution is to kill the elephants. Here is another general article, that, at the end, suggests another solution.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the corrupt South African government was trying to lift the ivory ban...

Here's the conclusion, for those who don't want to read the whole article:

Others suggested that to reduce pressure on habitat by elephants in South Africa and Botswana, the two countries should consider allowing some of the elephants into Mozambique, which is part of the elephant range in Southern Africa.

Kenya: Jumbo Wars Come to Country


The East African (Nairobi)

29 June 2008
Posted to the web 30 June 2008

John Mbaria
Nairobi

AS THE LARGEST LAND-Based animal, the elephant has the ability to excite strong emotions - emotions that now pit different African countries against each other over whether the beast has more value alive or dead.

The jumbo dispute was once again played out recently in Mombasa's Whitesands Hotel, where representatives of 19 African countries met to cement their unity and sharpen their campaign against the resumption of the ivory trade.


Meeting under the auspices of the African Elephant Coalition, the group called upon the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (Cites) not to allow China to be a partner in limited ivory trade allowed by the UN body two years ago in The Hague.

During the no-holds-barred event, Kenya, as usual, dug its heels in deep. It was obvious that the country, together with Mali, is the leader of the anti-trade pack.

Uganda was conspicuously absent and so was Tanzania. But unlike the latter, which allows sport hunting and has always voted with those calling for the resumption of the ivory trade, Uganda's voice (it emerged) has become somewhat confused.

It was revealed that officials in Uganda Wildlife Ministry advocate a resumption of the ivory trade, while the Uganda Wildlife Authority supports Kenya in calling for a total ban.

Interestingly, the group of African countries calling for a total ban also happen to be among the poorest in the world. Besides Mali, Sierra Leone, the Central African Republic, Democratic Republic of Congo, there are Senegal, Southern Sudan and Ghana, countries that do not have the wherewithal to effectively conserve their wildlife. Their human populations are not in any better shape.

Meanwhile, South Africa and Botswana - who lead the pro-trade group in Africa - not only have high gross domestic products, but are able to keep their wildlife away from unlicensed killers; they are also effective in strategising during international elephant diplomatic meetings.

THIS WAS EVIDENT DURING the last Cites meeting at The Hague, when they scored yet another victory after the UN body allowed them to sell 107 tonnes of ivory to Japan.

To the countries down south, the African Elephant Coalition's argument that lifting the ban on the ivory trade would open the floodgates to illegal trade and poaching does not wash. They have constantly argued that - as effective managers of their resources - they should not be penalized for the inability of Kenya and its other anti-trade colleagues to secure their elephant herds from the poachers' guns and snares.

So, what is it that Kenya and fellow anti-ivory trade states know that informs their anti-ivory trade stance and that seems to have escaped South Africa, Botswana, Namibia, Zimbabwe - and all the other countries outside Africa that see more value in dead elephants?


Patrick Omondi of Kenya Wildlife Service, who is considered the foremost elephant expert in Africa, presented facts and figures that even Southern African countries ought to be concerned about.

According to Omondi, the vast areas Africa has - throughout history - devoted to elephants to feed, breed and play, are largely gone.

Omondi told the gathering in Mombasa that the elephant can be found in 37 so-called range states. Their habitats there range from the vast grassland-dominated savannah (in East and Southern Africa) to such significant tropical forests as those found in the Congo Basin and parts of West Africa.

"Of the 2.6 million square kilometres now available for elephants on the continent, only 31 per cent are protected areas." He said such protected areas in Southern Africa constitute 39 per cent of the elephant range, 22 per cent in East Africa and 39 per cent in West Africa. Elephants inhabiting protected areas are relatively safer from illegal poaching.

FURTHER, IT IS APPARENT that Southern Africa has the largest amount of open land for elephant conservation and also the biggest known population of elephants on the continent.

Quoting data from the World Conservation Union (IUCN), Omondi said elephant numbers in different parts of the continent reflect the amount of land open for their conservation.

Southern Africa leads with 297,715, East Africa follows with 137,485, while Central Africa has 10,383 and West Africa has a small population of 7,487.

This means there are 472,269 elephants remaining in Africa today.

"What we are looking at here is a situation of too many elephants in some regions and too few in other regions," said Omondi.

He added that the issue is not merely about the impact that allowing international trade would have on the numbers, but also about how to manage elephants that criss-cross international boundaries - particularly when the relevant countries pursue conflicting conservation policies such as Kenya and Tanzania.

There are also other issues such as getting the world to appreciate the threat posed by human-elephant conflict in different African countries. "Surely, for a country like Senegal that has less than 10 elephants, it is important to know the story behind the low numbers," he said.

"We need an environment in which each country can be given a chance to explain the status of its elephant herds and why such a country has decided to take one or the other position on the international trade in ivory," he added.

During the Mombasa meeting, the delegates talked about systematic depletion of habitats and widespread poaching - particularly in the Central African Republic and Congo - while others talked about how elephant-human competition for available space and resources has affected numbers because, almost always, the beast ends up being the loser.

But it was Maj-Gen Alfred Akwoch, Undersecretary for the Environment and Tourism Ministry of Southern Sudan, who carried the day.

Maj-Gen Akwoch regretted that many international conferences on endangered wildlife happened before his government had signed the Comprehensive Peace Agreement with Khartoum government. He said that Southern Sudan has seven ecological regions that support localised elephant populations. "Although such ecological zones do not extend to the North, ivory had always been illegally acquired from Southern Sudan. It is obvious that as we fought the war, our adversaries were busy killing elephants."

And just like humans, some of the elephants in Southern Sudan became refugees in northern Uganda, he said.

Ironically, the long-running war in Southern Sudan seems to have helped to save elephants and other wildlife from total annihilation.

For instance, a report released recently by Unep shows that the population of kob (white-eared antelopes) has been growing steadily from the last count in the 1970s and now stands at 1.2 million.

Unep noted that the same phenomenon was unobserved anywhere else in Africa. But Maj-Gen Akwoch had an explanation for it.

He says that during the war, the Sudan People's Liberation Army (SPLA) issued a decree prohibiting its fighters from killing wildlife.

"One of our main interests in fighting the war was to save our resources from exploitation by the North, so we had asked everyone in SPLA to always carry a booklet that detailed a law barring them from ever killing wild animals. Indeed, when our fighters got hungry, a meeting had to be held to deliberate on what animal to kill and how," he said.

Although Southern Sudan is handicapped by lack of resources as far as managing its wildlife and other natural resources is concerned, it has now teamed up with Kenya and other states in the coalition to say "No" to the ivory trade.

The government in Juba is receiving considerable support and expertise from Kenya.

Already, it has hired Perez Olindo, a former director of the Wildlife Department in Kenya, as a consultant, and has formally asked Kenya to help in conducting a census of elephants and other wild animals.

But it seems that Southern Sudan still has a war to fight before it can actualise this dream. Its government is yet to be recognised as a voting member by Cites.

Officially, Sudan is recognised as one party at Cites meetings.

But the government of Southern Sudan is all but an independent government. Since the signing of the Comprehensive Peace Agreement, Juba has sought more visibility and international recognition pending the 2011 referendum that is expected to make it Africa's 54th state.

BUT EVEN BEFORE THEN, THE Southerners want a bigger say in the management of their elephant herds and other natural resources and Kenya seems to be the natural partner to provide the necessary expertise.

Other organisations like the International Fund for Animal Welfare and the Born Free Foundation have also come calling with much-needed dollar to secure Southern Sudan's five national parks and 13 game reserves.

For Central African countries, the worry is that their diminishing elephant populations will disappear if the trade is allowed.

The raging conflicts in Congo, Chad and the Central African Republic have given poachers free rein to reduce the already small elephant numbers in the region. Central Africa is thus fearful that allowing China to partner in the limited ivory trade will worsen the poaching that is currently going on there.

It was evident from the meeting that China's renewed quest to be allowed to buy part of the 107 tonnes of ivory that countries in Southern Africa were allowed to sell to Japan, has not gone down well with countries forming the African Elephant Coalition.

Delegates to the Mombasa meeting felt that Cites ought to respect an earlier decision that barred China from buying the relevant ivory.

It seems that the fear is that China, unlike Japan, has not come up with an effective way of ensuring that illegally-acquired ivory is not traded within its boundaries.

"One of the conditions given to Botswana, South Africa and Namibia for the one-off sale in 2002 was that the buyer needed to prove that they had the capacity to effectively prevent the proliferation of the illegal ivory trade," said Omondi.

His sentiments were echoed by Perez Olindo who said that China does not qualify to be a partner in the trade because "it has not put in place a legal mechanism to control all the ivory entering its territory, neither has it been able to prevent illegal ivory from being traded." It was revealed that illegal ivory trading has been taking place in the Chinese city of Shanghai.

"It is strange that even after the Cites secretariat identified illegal ivory trading in China, it nevertheless went ahead to put China's renewed request on the table," said Omondi.

But as the accusations against China flew from one corner of the hall to the other, the enigmatic dragon was nowhere to defend itself.

Nevertheless, the African elephant Coalition was asked to mount a formidable opposition to China's request. Most of the delegates went along with this position as one after the other expressed solidarity with Kenya.

On their part, Togo, Cameroon, Congo Brazzaville and Sierra Leone said that even before China raised the request, they had been losing their small elephant populations to poachers largely because of lack of manpower on the ground.


Some felt that because their elephant numbers are so small, countries with bigger populations should consider donating some elephants to boost their populations.

Delegates suggested the use of DNA profiling of ivory in the market as an effective method of monitoring where the ivory came from in the first place.

Others suggested that to reduce pressure on habitat by elephants in South Africa and Botswana, the two countries should consider allowing some of the elephants into Mozambique, which is part of the elephant range in Southern Africa.
 

lt dan

New member
socrates, i see i must take more time to express myself correctly in english.
culling is not the only option but the last option. there are several parks private and government that keep elephant. these parks have been continously expanded over the last couple of years to accommodate the growing numbers of animals specifically elephants. culling in sa includes lisenced hunting. this means american and german hunters are once again encouraged to come and hunt.

the animals that are culled eventually are nominated by the scouts that live alongside them every day. some of these rangers will nominate some elephants they have known from their birth. but due to sickness, age or some sort of defect they are now earmarked for culling. remember an elephant that is to old die of starvation, because they have only so many sets of teeth.

thus culling is not done randomly!

i am not a fan of the government of sa, hell i fought against them in the apartheid years. the problem here is that the elephant managing program is now almost a victim of its own success. this program was started by the old apartheid government and continued by the next ANC government. in south africa if you want to know what is going on listen to what the private sector says. and here is the shock, the private sector as well as univarsities have been saying for a couple of years now to lift the ban on elephant hunting. thus the influx of foreign capital by means of overseas hunters. the government opted rather for expanding the parks. they expanded the Addo elephant park something like six times( to name but one). all that this did was to postpone the uninevitable(culling). they should have allowed hunting 7 years ago. the problem i failed to explain is that the animal rights people are strongly against hunting and the government tried to accommodate those request from the green people for too long. now that they(government) has given in to animal rights people the net result is culling.

remember that part of the success of the elephant program was and still is the input/involvement of big game hunters. who knows an elephant and its needs better than the people hunting it.

in their letter the concerned people suggested that the parks board closed certain water holes so to force the elephants to other regions. have you heard about an elephant being forced to do anything? what if they dont find other water, then they die of thirst. these kind of suggestions are ludicress.

the point i try to make to the animal rights people is that for once a government listened to them and this resulted in culling.now that every other plan has failed they choose to stand on the side line and criticise the people that did what they asked.

what am i trying to say is that without controled hunting their can be no conservation.
 

Socrates

Moderator
what am i trying to say is that without controled hunting their can be no conservation.

No. This is a false conclusion, from the given premise. While it is true that the most successful animal countries have set apart large areas, charged game fees, encouraged hunting, and the tremendous influx of money it brings, it's not the only solution.

Large scale war is another solution. Aides as well. Famine.

The REAL solution is to limit human production, and encroachment on animal populations. However, this doesn't work in a democracy. So, it makes me conclude that the best solution for South Africa would be a dictator that puts animal life over human. Not like this hasn't happened before, and, seems to continue.

As for South AFrica's ability to manage: Non-existent, except for the goal to kill elephants for ivory...
 
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lt dan

New member
i see you say germans are being kicked out of the country. can you give more info on this? my parents in law are germans and they are sa citizens they just left home to travel 800miles to visit the Kruger park. they have cell phones and as soon as i hear from you i can warn them.

tell your sa friends in canada: "saterdag is dit kiwi biltong in kiwi land."
 

Socrates

Moderator
I will say thanks to Impala bullets Kobus Du Plessis, for the complimentary bullets.

I thought this post was about the garbage you posted earlier. Something about the 'only' solution to elephant over-population.?

Did you bother to read the article by one of your local writers, that states pretty clearly that your government is mainly interested in selling ivory? That they lead trying to open the market, and therefore leading to the slaughter of SA eles?
How about his solution to allow elephants more territory, or, allowing them to move to another country, or park>????

Here: I know reading English must be a strain, so I'll post it again:
Quote:
Others suggested that to reduce pressure on habitat by elephants in South Africa and Botswana, the two countries should consider allowing some of the elephants into Mozambique, which is part of the elephant range in Southern Africa.
Quote

If you want, I can simply the language so you can understand it...
 
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phil mcwilliam

New member
I believe in hunting conservation. I don't know of too many hunters that want to wipe out species so as not to hunt in the future. Game numbers have expanded in South Africa over the last years because of successful game management programs both private & government. Although I would never want to hunt elephant, I think they should cull the herd to a sustainable level with the use of trophy fee hunters. The money the trophy fees raise go a long way in preserving the herd.
 

lt dan

New member
socrates this is the problem. i know that you dont live over here, so when i take the time to explain something that is well known over here you say it is garbage. you ask why elephants are not allowed to cross into other countries when they are!! you ask why they are not allowed more territory when this is exactly what the goverment did. they bought so much land to ad to parks that it borderd on the insane. so lets recap: what you sugested has allready been done!!!!! thus it is a good sugestion but it alone can not work. did you read the part where i said the addo elephant park has been expanded 6 times.this is only one example.

socrates let us step back and let the other members of the forum have their say.
 

Socrates

Moderator
PHil

I agree. If you'll read what I posted, you might see that the SA governments' main priority is to export ivory. They've invested in their cash bulls, if you will, and now want to slaughter, and make money on the ivory. Also, God only knows what the stockpile of existing ivory is in SA.

Hunters take the ivory with them, so, culling is what the SA government wants. Excuse to shoot trophy bulls for ivory,
and keep the money for themselves.

They want this so bad, they are willing to go to conferences for all African governments, and, justify shooting their elephants for ivory with the entire continent.

If they are allowed to do this, the elephant, as we know it, is gone...
 

lt dan

New member
socrates are we in agreement then that culling could have been avoided if the ban on hunting was lifted earlier. the problem is that for this animal rights organisation hunting by foreign(us) hunters are even a bigger sin than culling.
 

phil mcwilliam

New member
I spent a month travelling through South Africa, Zimbabwe, Botswana, Namibia & Zambia over christmas. Elephants are seen regularly & it is amazing to see the damage done to the landscape by a roaming herd. South Africa has done a great job in building up their elephant herds but as there is an area limit on their habitat, the herd must be limited to a sustainable level. The animals that are culled from the herd are selected for that purpose, as each particular herd of elephants is generally know individually.
 

Musketeer

New member
The REAL solution is to limit human production, and encroachment on animal populations. However, this doesn't work in a democracy. So, it makes me conclude that the best solution for South Africa would be a dictator that puts animal life over human. Not like this hasn't happened before, and, seems to continue.

Amazing. That sounds like the normal PETA garbage of "animals are more important than people."
 

Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
Socrates, are you acquainted with the term "carrying capacity"?

There is a limit to how many animals of some type can have a healthy population, on any given tract of land. Simple as that. E.g., in central Texas you can run one animal unit--cow and calf--on about eight acres. You either kill the calves by selling into the marketplace, or you ruin the habitat. There is no choice; none whatsoever.

Elephants and their habitat are no different.

And the lion problem is typical for an area with people and livestock. A predator population will grow as long as food is available. Lions are quite happy with both livestock and people. The solution is to hold the lion population to a size which is adequately supported by wild animals. Additionally you kill off those individuals which learn bad habits about dietary preference.

Morals and emotions have nothing to do with biology.

Art
 

Socrates

Moderator
Amazing. That sounds like the normal PETA garbage of "animals are more important than people."

They are. And more valuable. Ask their own government, who is trying to lift the ivory ban.

socrates are we in agreement then that culling could have been avoided if the ban on hunting was lifted earlier. the problem is that for this animal rights organisation hunting by foreign(us) hunters are even a bigger sin than culling.

YES.
NOTHING is worse then not allowing hunting for the animal population. The revenue, some protection against poaching, and management of game by selective hunting is vital to the survival of African game. The countries with the most successful game management programs allow hunting. The only problem with hunting is that it can diminish the good genetic features, such as elephant tusks, by the removal of the animals with large tusks, if not properly managed. Again, I wouldn't trust the S. African Government to manage a row boat in a swimming pool.

All the culling does is support my argument that the South African government has no business managing wildlife, since they can't manage their own people.
If they had, this would NOT be an issue, and, if they had any sort of planning ability, they would be selling elephant tags for 10k to 200k. Then they wouldn't need to invite poaching and slaughter by lifting the ivory ban.

I certainly know enough about elephants that they develop dietary habits, and, are quite capable of developing a lack of respect for humans. Much as with bears, it's best to coexist from a distance.
Part of this distance is making sure they understand what rifles will do to them, and humans.

I am also aware that most good sized African elephants will eat about 150 pounds of hay, per day. That's a lot.

The solution I suggest is allowing some of the elephants to move intercountry, as is suggested in one of my prior posts, by one of the experts at the African ivory ban meeting.

It's odd that what elephants do is a vital part of the eco system, but, some people see that as 'damage'.

And yes Art, I understand that a certain amount of land is capable of supporting a certain number of animals. Again, my suggestion that some of the land around the parks be added to the park, to create a bigger part, and the people moved. The SA government certainly has no problem with taking existing owners land from them.:mad:
 
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