Drawing Your Firearm: Prudent Action?

[Brian Pfleuger]

Legally speaking, I suspect a person's a lot more likely to get into trouble by shooting too late (eg, after the bad guy has thrown down his firearm, or fainted unconscious, or started to run away) than by drawing too early (eg, brandishing). But I'm not a lawyer...

I'm no lawyer either, but I can guarantee which of those things that I'd RATHER be charged with!

Drawing sooner rather than later would seem to make firing less likely. Anything I can do to avoid shooting someone is a good thing.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Legally speaking, I suspect a person's a lot more likely to get into trouble by shooting too late (eg, after the bad guy has thrown down his firearm, or fainted unconscious, or started to run away) than by drawing too early (eg, brandishing). But I'm not a lawyer -- you are. What's your experience on that? Is my impression generally correct?...

I'd agree. Although I don't have any direct experience, certainly that's consistent with some of the discussions I've had with Massad Ayoob and what he's said about his experiences.

Mas, IIRC, was involved in at least one case in which the defender fired late, as the assailant was breaking off the attack. The defense was able to prevail by putting on expert testimony about reaction times and the time lag involved in trying to stop and reverse an action in progress. But whenever a legal defense needs to be based on that sort of reasonably esoteric information, there's a risk that a jury won't be able to process the concepts.

On the other hand, if you draw your gun and don't fire, at least no one has been shot. At worst someone has been scared. So, with no blood on the sidewalk and no holes in any protoplasm, you'll probably be okay if you can do a decent job of articulating why (1) in the same situation a reasonable and prudent person would have concluded that lethal force was necessary to prevent otherwise unavoidable, immediate death or grave bodily injury to an innocent; (2) you reasonably determined it was necessary to draw your gun to defend yourseld, or an innocent third party; and (3) the situation changed so that there was no longer a reason to shoot.

All things considered, the latter should be a much easier sell than trying to explain why you used high speed lead projectiles to punch holes in the living flesh of someone who had given up or otherwise was no longer a threat.

 

[stargazer65]

When I click on the link that the OP posted, I get a thread of someone selling a Sig. Am I the only one?

I concur with the idea of pulling sooner vice later when warranted.

 

[Shane Tuttle]

Thanks for bringing that to my attention, stargazer. Long story short, I didn't copy/paste the correct thread.

 

[Crankylove]

you better be prepared to shoot if you pull

100% correct.

If you carry a weapon (of any kind) you must be willing and prepared to use it.

If you draw your weapon (firearm in this case), you must be prepared to shoot.

If you fire your weapon, you must accept the fact that you may kill another person.

Being prepared to do a certain action, and thinking you that you MUST do that action, are entirely different.

If the threat stops after I draw, I am happy.
If the threat stops after I aim at the aggresor.......... not quite as happy, but still a good outcome.
If it stops after one shot........its a crapy deal all around, but the attack has stopped so I don't need to shoot any further.
If I need to empty my gun into the attacker to stop the threat, I will, but just because I had to draw my weapon, dosen't mean this last out come, is the only acceptable outcome.

 

[X_shooter]

So I am guessing the draw for affect types practice the NRA first two rules of gun safety. Of course you don't want to accidentally shoot someone you were going to shoot.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

So I am guessing the draw for affect types practice the NRA first two rules of gun safety.

I assume that you mean that to be sarcastic, but in fact the answer is yes.

You don't point a gun at someone because you MIGHT need to pull the trigger in a second or two.

If you don't need to shoot RIGHT NOW but you do feel the need to draw your gun then the gun is drawn and held at a safe position, at your side, or low ready, situation dependent but is NOT pointed at ANY individual.

Now, the INSTANT that the situation warrants actually pulling the trigger the safety rules in regards to the aggressor are out the window. You may very well still point it at the person without pulling the trigger but you had better not be pointing it at them unless you COULD LEGALLY pull the trigger.

 

[briandg]

draw or display?

If you show your weapon, it will change the dynamics of the entire situation, whether it is in your hand or not.

From the decision to show that you are armed, a person had better be utterly ready to "throw down" and fire. Until then, it's a whole different situation.

For my part, I don't believe in rules, and every second of every encounter is bound to be a whole different universe from the one before.

This reminds me of the silly thing I read in Dune, where the traditional sandworm tooth dirk had to taste blood if it was drawn, before it was put back in the sheath.

 

[Frank Ettin]

So I am guessing the draw for affect types practice the NRA first two rules of gun safety. Of course you don't want to accidentally shoot someone you were going to shoot.

Actually, in practical training (as in IPSC and IDPA) we go by the Jeff Cooper/Gunsite Four Rules:

1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard until your sights are on target and the decision has been made to shoot.
4. Know your target and what's behind it.

And yes, we train observing those rules and follow them at all times.

 

[Hook686]

So your back is to the wall and someone is advancing towards you in a menacing fashion with a knife in his hand. You draw your gun, and he immediately drops his knife, turns and runs away. Are you going to shoot him? Drawing your gun was justified, shooting the assailant when he breaks off the threat is not.

Let's see, BG is advancing on you with knife. You pull your gun (at what distance ?). Then you hesitate (how long ? 1/2 second ?) Then you check to see if he dropped his knife, turned and ran. How long this analysis take ? (another 1/2 second ?) OK now 1 second has passed. The advancing bad guy has not dropped his knife and fled, but is now has covered how much ground ? (20 feet ?) Hmmm I think you are history.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Let's see, BG is advancing on you with knife. You pull your gun (at what distance ?). Then you hesitate (how long ? 1/2 second ?)...

Wow, you really want to shoot someone.

Anyway, there need be no hesitation. In the slightly more that one second it takes me to present my gun, the guy with the knife remembers an appointment elsewhere. By the time my gun is almost on target, he's turned and is running away.

 

[ranburr]

In the slightly more that one second it takes me to present my gun, the guy with the knife remembers an appointment elsewhere. By the time my gun is almost on target, he's turned and is running away.

Frank, you are assuming that the person you are dealing with is a normal thinking person. I can tell you for a fact that a number of groups truly will not turn and run because they have no fear of a gun. When they see a regular person brandishing a gun, they think "I'm going to take this guy out and get a new gun at the same time". I have had two encounters with people like this. Both times they tried to enter my home late at night clearly saw me and a .45 coming up on them. Both times they came towards me, both times the were put down by my Boerboel before I could get a shot off. First case was a Katrina guy who had been shot in the past, second case was two Tango Blast members, one of whom had been shot before. All of them told the police that they had no fear of me or guns but "please, please sir keep that dog off". Gunshot wounds are a badge of honor for many idiots.

 

[Deputy Dog]

Just because you draw your weapon, doesnt mean you have to shoot. If when you draw your weapon, and are lucky enough that the BG drops his and runs away, thats a good day. If you pull the trigger when he runs you will most likely go to jail for shooting an un-armed fleeing subject. Now if he drops his weapon and still charges you, you have a situation that is in the grey area. "If you are going to carry be prepared to use it" that is what I tell my students. Even if you get the drop on the perp, and you have your gun on them, doesnt mean that their going to stop the attack. You might even provoke them further, and force you to shoot. If you are going to shoot, aim and shoot center mass. You wont have time to aim for a pelvis area unless they are literally on top of you and thats the only shot you can get off to get them off of you. And dont think just because you carry a big ole .45 or
.44 that the attacker will stop instantly in their tracks. Sorry it doesnt always work that way. If the attacker gets ahold of your weapon they can and will use it on you. A little something to ponder!

DD

 

[demigod]

Originally posted by Tuttle8:
I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement.

Thank GOD!!

I didn't see anyone who disagreed with the guy who posted that nonsense. It was a completely absurd reply.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Let's see, BG is advancing on you with knife. You pull your gun (at what distance ?). Then you hesitate (how long ? 1/2 second ?) Then you check to see if he dropped his knife, turned and ran. How long this analysis take ? (another 1/2 second ?) OK now 1 second has passed. The advancing bad guy has not dropped his knife and fled, but is now has covered how much ground ? (20 feet ?) Hmmm I think you are history.

No one is saying that you don't shoot if you're in "instant" peril. You don't "wait to see".

There are approximately 897,965,538,167,835 scenarios wherein you would draw and instantly fire.

There are approximately 538,761,835,569,798,631 scenarios wherein we would draw and NOT shoot immediately.

It is impossible to cover them all and it's not the point of this thread. The point is that "draw" does not "equal" fire.

It's not about being "ready" or "prepared" to fire, as in "Don't carry a gun unless you're prepared to use it." That is assumed.

It's about whether or not drawing your gun essentially REQUIRES pulling the trigger. That notion, would be silly were it not so dangerous.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Again, as I said earlier - if there are a million DGUs a year - why are they successful with 95% of them having no shots fired?

 

[Frank Ettin]

...you are assuming that the person you are dealing with is a normal thinking person..

And you are assuming that he is not.

You (and Hook686) missed the point. I was just illustrating that it's possible that a situation will change. At first, the situation is such that you are justified in drawing your gun. But then the situation changes such that you would not be justified in shooting. There are limitless ways this could happen in real life.

But the question before us was, in effect, "If you draw your gun, must you shoot?" And the answer is, unequivocally, "No." If you draw you gun, you need to be prepared to shoot. And if you draw your gun, the situation should have been such shooting would be justified, i. e., you can articulate how a reasonable and prudent person would have concluded that your assailant had the ability to deliver lethal force, had the opportunity to deliver lethal force and was putting you in jeopardy of an immediate death or grave bodily injury.

But situations are dynamic and can change in an instant. And they can change in a such a way that shooting would no longer be justified.

As Glenn has pointed out (twice) in the vast majority of successful defensive gun uses, no shots are fired.

peetzakilla gets it.

...The point is that "draw" does not "equal" fire. ...

 

[Maromero]

There are approximately 897,965,538,167,835 scenarios wherein you would draw and instantly fire.

There are approximately 538,761,835,569,798,631 scenarios wherein we would draw and NOT shoot immediately.

Pete. Where do you get those numbers, ah? Good thing you say they are approximates.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Pete. Where do you get those numbers, ah? Good thing you say they are approximates.

Bah! My keyboard doesn't have a side-ways "8".... I thought those figures would get the point across!

 

[stargazer65]

Pete. Where do you get those numbers, ah? Good thing you say they are approximates.

He obviously has a hotline to Mr. Spock.