Do you consider the .223/5.56 to be a weak or otherwise ineffective cartridge?

[stagpanther]

Having a 6x45mm in my AR assortment, I'd have to suggest a shorter and maybe fatter case body. Something like 6x42mm, or even 6x40mm. Otherwise, you're stuck with sucky bullets. 6x45mm is really restricted by the AR-15/M16 magazine COAL limit. Makes it really difficult to use 80+ gr bullets, and even more difficult to use 85+ gr bullets with a decent (not even "good") ballistic coefficient.
Or, just bump the mag well length and use a new magazine that can handle a longer COAL. (I think 2.380" would be enough to make a big difference, but 2.500" allowance would be great.)

Even drilling a channel in the front of the magwell to accomodate a magazine that allows COL's well beyond 2.26 I've found you'll hit the wall--literally--somewhere around 2.34 because that's where the extension's feed ramps will extend to roughly. I suppose you could grind out the bottom feed ramps a bit, but that doesn't lower the step up the bullet has to make to make into the chamber. That's what I experienced trying to hotrod the 224 valk.

 

[Greybeard Classic]

Now I'm no genius, but why are they coming up with new rounds in the first place? I've never even HEARD of a .277 Fury until I read this thread. If they wanted a larger, more powerful round than the .223, why didn't they jump on the more recent 6.5 Creedmore bandwagon when they were so hot? Granted, many of our more popular hunting rounds started out as a military staple, (along with wildcatting that IMPROVED others) but is newer really better compared to what we already have currently available? I may be old-fashioned, but if it works, don't monkey with it...

 

[rickyrick]

I’ve fired .223 inside a room, and it’s quite the loud smoky affair.

As I’ve repeatedly stated, at self defense range that will keep you out of prison in civilized society, it’s beyond effective.

Off topic, but I’ve tested the round out on any type of building material you could think of and it penetrates everything.

 

[HiBC]

I'm not stuck in some rut over the M-4 and 5.56.

If we can field a better battle instrument to our troops,great!

I do consider the combat load and the troop being able to carry many,many rounds of ammo.

Mogadishu is a case in point.

One other thought has occurred to me. Chaos.

Consider the state of the World. I don't know if we produce enough steel to replenish the pantry with 155 mm projectiles. OK,maybe we do but consider overall supply chains.
The videos of Ukraine hosing Russian aircraft out of the sky leave me thinking "Wow! Thats a lot of ammo!" (Where they get that?)

Israel may be shooting lots of bullets soon.

I'm hearing noise that we are looking at the bottom of the ammo barrel.

So who led NATO to re-tool and re-stock to 5.56 NATO?

How likely is the rest of NATO to be enthusiastic about spending money on arms and ammo? Is the USA going to pay for it?

What happens if China rolls into Taiwan as the Middle East blows up while Ukraine and Russia are still hot?

Chaos, and being issued 23 rounds for today's operation.

Maybe China or Tula will sell us some. We can always print the money.

 

[rickyrick]

If they wanted a larger, more powerful round than the .223, why didn't they jump on the more recent 6.5 Creedmore bandwagon

Well, to replace the 5.56, they needed a LOT more power, more power than current intermediate cartridges available have.

Larger cartridges become a logistical issue. If overall cartridge size wasn’t a problem, then they could just use 30.06 or even one of the magnum rifle cartridges.

They need something that can punch through body armor at a distance in a compact package.

 

[5whiskey]

Israel may be shooting lots of bullets soon.

I'm hearing noise that we are looking at the bottom of the ammo barrel.

So who led NATO to re-tool and re-stock to 5.56 NATO?

How likely is the rest of NATO to be enthusiastic about spending money on arms and ammo? Is the USA going to pay for it?

What happens if China rolls into Taiwan as the Middle East blows up while Ukraine and Russia are still hot?

Chaos, and being issued 23 rounds for today's operation.

Maybe China or Tula will sell us some. We can always print the money.

Strictly in terms of giving the grunts what is needed to make war, logistics plays a major role. For SD use (which i think is the point of the thread), you are not outgunned if you have a MSR carbine in .223 if you use good ammo. There ARE better options, should you chose to spend the money on them. But .223 is established and economical. Heck it's economical BECAUSE it's established, but we are where we are in terms of ammo markets.

Back to the logistics of war, I suggested the 6x45 because it is the least obtrusive upgrade to the millions of current M4s, M16s, and M249s currently in the arsenal. All it requires to convert an AR design to 6x45 is a barrel swap. The round is somewhat handicapped by the COAL availability in the magazine. In that case, as frankenmauser suggested, bump the case back to 6x42. An AI or WSSM shoulder profile may also help some (though probably not much).

Alas, I believe the military has a lot of things it needs to consider. Ramping up production of 155 shells, mortars, javelin missiles, and other crew serve and supporting weapons probably ranks pretty high on the list of needs. Likely to be much higher, at this point, than rifle upgrades. At least from my reading on the reserve depletion undergone by arming Ukraine. That should be a MAJOR eye opener... but at least it did happen without American troops being committed.

 

[stagpanther]

I suggested the 6x45

If you're changing nothing at all other than necking it up, I suspect you'll run into the performance wall and limited selection of appropriate bullets problem much as the 25 x 45 sharps has to really get significant performance gains. Hence the ARC.

 

[Forte S+W]

Okay, can someone please direct me to some articles I can read in regards to this "Chinese Stormtrooper Armor" which has been repeatedly referred to in this thread?

I'm curious and wish to learn more about it!

 

[44 AMP]

I think the Chinese adoption Star Wars Stormtrooper armor would be a fine thing, for us.

I've worn the helmet (shell, anyway) you can't see squat.

It doesn't stop blasters, it doesn't stop lightsabers, and a blind guy with a stick can take out a dozen stormtroopers....

The counter to armor in the middle ages was the longbow, and later, the crossbow. If they Chinese (or anyone) comes up with a viable Star Wars Stormtrooper type armor, someone will come up with a counter for that.

The only thing you can count on for sure, is that our govt will try very hard to make civilian ownership of that counter difficult or outright illegal.

 

[gnappi]

Oh Nooooo.... I can imagine all the dirt cheap AR's available from the lemmings that follow such things

 

[rickyrick]

Funny thing, it’s the caliber that government is most afraid of being in civilian hands.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Funny thing, it’s the caliber that government is most afraid of being in civilian hands.

Is it? I don't recall any .223/5.56 legislation being proposed, just mag limits and platforms. Maybe I missed the call to arms from the NRA to contact my congressfolk about protecting the .223 from the government? Either way, the government doesn't care how we consider the ammo, whether we consider it to be strong or weak.

If they do fear the caliber, it isn't so much for the capabilities or lack thereof as noted here, but the fact that it is so commonplace. .223 is the 2nd most popular rifle caliber, but the first most popular centerfire rifle caliber in the US (behind the venerable .22) (based on sales).
https://backfire.tv/popular-cartridges/

For companies like Lucky Gunner, it is the 2nd most common caliber sold from their inventory, behind 9mm.
http://knowledgeglue.com/what-are-the-most-popular-calibers-in-the-us/

Many of us may not consider it the be all to end all of calibers, but I bet you will find it in lots of bug out bags.

 

[rickyrick]

They want to ban the AR15, which is capable of firing 5.56… they call it a powerful military cartridge… when it fits the narrative, they call them “cop killer bullets”
Add a pistol brace, and it makes the gun fire a larger caliber.

Now I posted that with a bit of sarcasm… I doubt anti-gunners even know what caliber the AR15 fires from its military grade pistol-clips

If I remember correctly, some countries ban military calibers.

 

[Forte S+W]

Don't forget that .223 travels at 3x the speed of light. That's my personal favorite one right there.

 

[44 AMP]

The really ironic thing is that the government MADE the 5.56/.223 the most popular caliber, along with convincing millions of people to buy AR 15s.

They did this by trying to ban the gun, and stupidly, failing.

Forbidden fruit, people.

The AR 15 and the .223 hit the commercial market in the early 60s (round 64 or so I think), and did not set the world on fire. Sales were low, there was not a lot of interest at the time.

The rifle cost more than a decent deer rifle, and fired a round that wasn't legal for deer in over half the country. There wasn't a big market for any military look alikes, even when chambered in deer class rounds. The FAL was also on the market then, and sales were...lackluster. Again, cost was a major factor, along with the military styling which didn't appeal to most of the market in those days.

By the 80s, the redesign of the AR made it much more accurate, and modular accessories were being made, in ever increasing numbers, and interest was picking up. By the 90s, the Govt was demonizing the gun and enacted a partial ban with the 94 AWB law.

THAT got people VERY interested in having one (or more) and when that law sunset in 2004 LOTS of people who never wanted one before went out and bought them, and people have kept on buying the gun the Govt didn't want you to have in large numbers.

EVERY law increasing restriction on the AR in one state or another upped the AR sales in all the other states, and it continues to this day.

 

[Forte S+W]

Indeed, it's most likely that if so many anti-gun politicians hadn't so aggressively pushed for the AR-15 to be banned throughout the past few decades, then it wouldn't be very popular at all on the civilian market right now.
Heck, it's entirely possible that the AR-15 would be no more popular than any other military issued rifle at this point in time had it not received so much attention in the media, thanks to persist efforts to demonize the rifle by anti-gun politicians.

It almost makes me sort of grateful to them... I only just got an AR Pattern Rifle this year, and I very much doubt that I would have been so fortunate as to score a $1379 MSRP Rifle for $685 as a Police Trade-in if the AR-15 wasn't such a popular and highly copied design. After all, the AR-15/M4 Carbine would most likely only be manufactured by Colt and FN under military contract by now in a world where the design hadn't received such enduring media attention throughout the past few decades in a desperate attempt to demonize/ban the AR-15. Yet now practically every major firearms manufacturer offers some variation of the AR/M4 with very competitive pricing — not to mention several high-end custom shops — thus making it widely available in practically endless configurations at affordable prices.

 

[rc]

I agree that many people buy ARs and AKs to have what the government doesn't want them to have. In reality I think the Mini 14 or M1 carbine are much more practical guns for most people than ARs since they operate more similarly to the popular Ruger 10/22. I find the charging handle on the AR 15 to be in an awkward position to load the first round since you have to take the gun off your shoulder to do so. If you are shooting and running mags with the ping pong paddle to load the first round without having to pull back the charging handle they work fine but ARs are also very tall so shooting them from a bench rest or prone can be a bit awkward when you are used to "normal" shaped guns.

 

[stagpanther]

— thus making it widely available in practically endless configurations at affordable prices.

Not that that has anything to do with its popularity.

 

[rickyrick]

This thread had me looking at the 5.7 cartridge, since it’s a similar bullet with a smaller cartridge and was surprised at the number of government entities using the p90 as their weapon; this includes the US Secret Service
Bottom line is these intermediate cartridges (5.7 is actually a pistol cartridge), especially in the 22cal range is effective enough and keeps the bean counters happy

 

[Double Naught Spy]

They want to ban the AR15, which is capable of firing 5.56… they call it a powerful military cartridge… when it fits the narrative, they call them “cop killer bullets”
Add a pistol brace, and it makes the gun fire a larger caliber.

Lots of guns fire the .223/5.56, but they aren't being banned. I don't see how you are saying this is a caliber issue.