Do you consider the .223/5.56 to be a weak or otherwise ineffective cartridge?

[davidsog]

I think a lot of your confusion comes from not understanding CQB tactics and how the sectors of work. It very much depends on where the target is standing.

Double tapping was the standard method of engagement with a failure drill conducted if the target had armor. Later, We adjusted our training to a failure drill if the target was still standing and hence the terminology change from a Mozambique to simply a "Failure Drill".

A four man team will put eight bullets into a target in sector 3 just because it is in sector 3.

Sector 1 and 2 with a target standing in the beginning of their sector will only have two bullets from the Operators double tap. That is where the string of fire happens and where I encountered my first enemy combatant.

 

[2damnold4this]

The 5.56 is certainly an effective self defense cartridge but so is the .38 Special. Is it the best self defense cartridge? I don't know but I'd wager it would work for self defense close to 100% of the time.

Is it the best cartridge for the military? That is a different subject than civilian self defense.

Is the 5.56 what I use for self defense? No, but I think it's very effective.

 

[Forte S+W]

This brings a question to mind...

At what distance(s) does a Close Quarter Battle actually occur? I ask because as often as I see folks using the term, it doesn't seem like any two people can seem to agree on how close the "close" part of CQB actually is, but it doesn't seem to be within striking distance at least, otherwise I imagine that Bayonets would be considered more useful.

 

[davidsog]

At what distance(s) does a Close Quarter Battle actually occur?

3-7 feet is typical. Occasionally you get a larger engagement distance down a hallway or a very large room.

 

[tangolima]

3-7 feet is typical. Occasionally you get a larger engagement distance down a hallway or a very large room.

It is foot or yard? 3-7 feet seems too close. 3-7 yards (9-21 feet) sounds more reasonable.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[davidsog]

Four Operators and Four Bad guys in a 20x10 room.

What do you think the distances are going to be between muzzles?

 

[tangolima]

If the defenders are caught unprepared, any distance from 0 to 20 feet is possible. If the they are alerted, it would be at least 10 feet.

I just think it would be risky to let the bad guy be so close that they can grab your gun.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[JohnKSa]

3-7 feet is typical.

Four Operators and Four Bad guys in a 20x10 room.

A four man team will put eight bullets into a target in sector 3 just because it is in sector 3.

We averaged 8 round to get an immediate stop in the house that first tour.

Taken all together, these quotes suggest one reason for having a high number of shots hitting each target. Given the described circumstances (1-2 yards range, some targets automatically engaged with as many as 8 rounds just by virtue of their placement in the room), one would logically expect to see a lot of targets hit a lot of times.

 

[HiBC]

With the exception of a good central nervous system disruption,dying takes a bit of time. Even for a cartridge like the 30-06. Maybe only seconds, but a Fighter can cost friendly life as a final defiant act.
Taking hits is likely disruptive. At least for a few seconds. I'm not a Veteran,but IMO,policy be darned! I think it best to keep shooting till the bad guy drops his weapon and goes limp.

A friend who was a Platoon Leader and Ranger 1st Infantry,Michelin Rubber area of Vietnam explained once an objective is taken, sure,a "Chu Hoi" can be recognised ,secured,and treated,.Its one thing if they surrender. But if they are representing themselves as "dead" ........it does not take many incidents of a "dead enemy" pressing a trigger or tossing a grenade, killing or wounding a Buddy to implement a policy of "overkill"..

Sounds bad,but "War is Hell"

 

[davidsog]

Taken all together, these quotes suggest one reason for having a high number of shots hitting each target. Given the described circumstances (1-2 yards range, some targets automatically engaged with as many as 8 rounds just by virtue of their placement in the room), one would logically expect to see a lot of targets hit a lot of times.

A target in sector 3 that goes down immediately will only have the bullets in him that were required for an immediate stop.

If it takes 8 bullets for an immediate stop then he will have 8 bullets and that means the target was a threat long enough to receive the full attention from every operator entering the room.

Multiple shots were required for targets in sector 1 and 2. Those sectors were the problematic ones requiring extra attention and a string of fire from the operator.

 

[stuckinthe60s]

its why the 16 went to 3 round bursts.............


personally?
you wont catch me stepping into 4000fps.

 

[Red Devil]

M193:

The damage caused by the 5.56 mm bullet [M193] was originally believed to be caused by "tumbling" due to the slow 1 turn in 14-inch (360 mm) rifling twist rate.[43][58] However, any pointed lead core bullet will "tumble" after penetration into flesh, because the center of gravity is towards the rear of the bullet.


The large wounds observed by soldiers in Vietnam were caused by bullet fragmentation created by a combination of the bullet's velocity and construction.[60] These wounds were so devastating that the photographs remained classified into the 1980s.[61]...

... The original ammunition for the M16 was the 55-grain M193 cartridge. When fired from a 20 in (510 mm) barrel at ranges of up to 300 feet (100 m), the thin-jacketed lead-cored round traveled fast enough (above 2,900 ft/s (880 m/s))...


that the force of striking a human body would cause the round to yaw (or tumble) and fragment into about a dozen pieces of various sizes thus created wounds that were out of proportion to its caliber.[142][143]

These wounds were so devastating that many considered the M16 to be an inhumane weapon.[146][147][148]

As the 5.56 mm round's velocity decreases, so does the number of fragments that it produces.[24] The 5.56 mm round does not normally fragment at distances beyond 200 meters or at velocities below 2500 ft/s, and its lethality becomes largely dependent on shot placement.[24][143]




Red

 

[rickyrick]

Varmint grenades had some pretty shocking results when I used them, very light and very fast.

 

[stuckinthe60s]

'if its made by mattel....its swell!'

anyone remember that?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

You mean do we remember the myth?

 

[NEPrepper]

Ask any combat vet with several confirmed kills. 5.56 is great for medium and close range engagements. Longer than that you'll want a 7.62-tier round of some sort

 

[44 AMP]

You mean do we remember the myth?

I remember a lot of myths about the M16 rifles. The myth that Mattel made the entire rifle is, obviously just that, a myth.

The myth that Mattel made the plastic parts of the rifle isn't quite as clear, but to date, no photos of Mattel marked parts have come to light.

However, Mattel was involved, at first, sort of. There is documented evidence that Mattel, because of their expertise in injection molding techniques, was sought out, and did assist in the design and development of the molds used for mass production of the stocks, and handguards.

 

[mehavey]

Good Rumors....? Not.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/legend-or-fact-did-mattel-build-its-own-m-16-rifle-207740

On the other hand:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMR9kwgxTh4

(Remember boys & girls . . .
I'm just here for the food.



But getting more serious:
https://www.thearmorylife.com/mattel-m16-rifle/

 

[JohnKSa]

Yup. I'll bet he's not the only one that pulled that brand of joke. I'm guessing that type of thing probably accounts for many of the "eyewitness" stories about Mattel marked M16s/parts.

 

[stagpanther]

Anyone growing up in the 60's and 70's can probably remember Mattel plastic toys and models--I can also remember M16/AR15 not-so-lovingly referred to sometimes as "plastic fantastic."