David White
New member
You know what they say about a plan when the SHTF?
Anything and everything can change.
Anything and everything can change.
Do Rampage response training videos teach rampagers how to do it?
- Thread starter Glenn E. Meyer
- Start date
SPOILER ALERT; Soft Target, active shooters....
This topic mirrors a few plot elements in the novel; Soft Target by pro-2A author Steven Hunter(I Sniper, Point of Impact). If you read the great novel, you might get my point(s).
Active or "spree" shooters may have detailed plans or elaborate methods but if I were in Homeland Security or LE, I'd be leery of secondary IEDs or other terror acts designed to "draw in" security or LE.
A skilled marksman could shoot a target(citizen, police officer, elected official) then as the media & crowd grow, set off a IED or bomb.
More safeguards could be added too like alerts or "BOLOs"(be on the lookout) but many places have privacy/HIPPA type laws to prevent private details from public access.
Some states-cities like WA have "watch out for this dude" databases & the US Secret Service monitors people with; "inappropriate interests" towards federal level elected officials.
CF
This topic mirrors a few plot elements in the novel; Soft Target by pro-2A author Steven Hunter(I Sniper, Point of Impact). If you read the great novel, you might get my point(s).
Active or "spree" shooters may have detailed plans or elaborate methods but if I were in Homeland Security or LE, I'd be leery of secondary IEDs or other terror acts designed to "draw in" security or LE.
A skilled marksman could shoot a target(citizen, police officer, elected official) then as the media & crowd grow, set off a IED or bomb.
More safeguards could be added too like alerts or "BOLOs"(be on the lookout) but many places have privacy/HIPPA type laws to prevent private details from public access.
Some states-cities like WA have "watch out for this dude" databases & the US Secret Service monitors people with; "inappropriate interests" towards federal level elected officials.
CF
Pretty much any material on violent crime could be an "inspiration" for the criminally minded. However, AARs, analysis, etc, are also highly useful for those of us who would much rather stop a rampage than start one.
Since active shooter and the like are often stopped by non-LEOs as often as by the SWAT team (or more often), it seems that having information out there for those wanting to learn how to defend and mitigate against attacks is pretty reasonable.
Since active shooter and the like are often stopped by non-LEOs as often as by the SWAT team (or more often), it seems that having information out there for those wanting to learn how to defend and mitigate against attacks is pretty reasonable.
There appear to be three classes of mass shooters:
1) Total lunatics. The recent Aurora shooter and the guy that shot Gabby Giffords in Tucson both fall squarely into this category. Tactical knowledge tends to be the lowest of all categories. I suspect this class is also among the more common types of mass killers.
2) Racists or other bigots. The recent Sikh Temple shooter is of this category, as is that jackass in Norway and various "Sudden Jihadi Syndrome" types like the military shrink who shot up a base with a handgun not too long ago
. These types are "sane" by the standards of most courts and are capable of very methodical planning - the Norway case is a horrific example. I consider them extremely dangerous, probably the most dangerous category.
3) "Specific grudge cases": the shooter has a personal grudge against at least some of the victims...see also the Columbine shooters, and a LOT of cases where a guy goes after his "ex" and takes out others as well - or the sort who goes back to a former workplace to "get even". The level of planning seems to be (on average) somewhere between the above two types. (Some of these sorts are actually crazy, others...not so much.)
Mental deficiencies among the "not totally crazy" sort are common - usually either anger management issues from hell, or something in the sociopath/psychopath spectrum. Or...well, they're just plain a-holes - meaning, usually, "not raised right", "spoiled brats", etc. There really are people in the world who expect to "get their way" at every stage of the game and get furious when it doesn't happen.
What else..."anger management"...fancy way of saying "somebody who enjoys the feeling of both power and loss of control that unleashing total rage entails". These people enjoy the "incredible Hulk" feeling of going totally bellowing out-of-control nuts in what they see as "justified rage". I detest this sort of so-called "human" more than just about any other. It is NOT "insanity" in any sort of fashion that might excuse horrible (or especially murderous) behavior.
The true mentally ill sorts (such as the recent Tucson shooter) have my pity. In that case it was genuine schizophrenia...the videos he made before the killing are absolutely tell-tale. I am not in favor of killing that nut - it wouldn't be right because we might one day be able to really cure that and even that aside, we need to study critters like this (and I suspect the Aurora shooter is similar) and you can't study the dead near as well...
For the record: I'm not completely mentally normal myself - I'm a mild-ish Asperger's case. But that isn't linked to either violence or loss of judgement and anybody who knows me will tell you that if anything I don't get angry enough.
1) Total lunatics. The recent Aurora shooter and the guy that shot Gabby Giffords in Tucson both fall squarely into this category. Tactical knowledge tends to be the lowest of all categories. I suspect this class is also among the more common types of mass killers.
2) Racists or other bigots. The recent Sikh Temple shooter is of this category, as is that jackass in Norway and various "Sudden Jihadi Syndrome" types like the military shrink who shot up a base with a handgun not too long ago
. These types are "sane" by the standards of most courts and are capable of very methodical planning - the Norway case is a horrific example. I consider them extremely dangerous, probably the most dangerous category.3) "Specific grudge cases": the shooter has a personal grudge against at least some of the victims...see also the Columbine shooters, and a LOT of cases where a guy goes after his "ex" and takes out others as well
- or the sort who goes back to a former workplace to "get even". The level of planning seems to be (on average) somewhere between the above two types. (Some of these sorts are actually crazy, others...not so much.)Mental deficiencies among the "not totally crazy" sort are common - usually either anger management issues from hell, or something in the sociopath/psychopath spectrum. Or...well, they're just plain a-holes - meaning, usually, "not raised right", "spoiled brats", etc. There really are people in the world who expect to "get their way" at every stage of the game and get furious when it doesn't happen.
What else..."anger management"...fancy way of saying "somebody who enjoys the feeling of both power and loss of control that unleashing total rage entails". These people enjoy the "incredible Hulk" feeling of going totally bellowing out-of-control nuts in what they see as "justified rage". I detest this sort of so-called "human" more than just about any other. It is NOT "insanity" in any sort of fashion that might excuse horrible (or especially murderous) behavior.
The true mentally ill sorts (such as the recent Tucson shooter) have my pity. In that case it was genuine schizophrenia...the videos he made before the killing are absolutely tell-tale. I am not in favor of killing that nut - it wouldn't be right because we might one day be able to really cure that and even that aside, we need to study critters like this (and I suspect the Aurora shooter is similar) and you can't study the dead near as well...
For the record: I'm not completely mentally normal myself - I'm a mild-ish Asperger's case. But that isn't linked to either violence or loss of judgement and anybody who knows me will tell you that if anything I don't get angry enough
.playin' hookey
New member
Sum of All Fears
is, I believe, the Tom Clancy novel about terrorists building a nuclear bomb, which Pax quoted.
is, I believe, the Tom Clancy novel about terrorists building a nuclear bomb, which Pax quoted.
"Bruce Banner Syndrome", The Turner Diaries....
The Hulk remarks reminds me of a recent conversation I had with a guy who claimed to be a OEF-OIF combat veteran & ex-sheriff's deputy.
The "ex-cop" said he was under treatment for PTSD & "Bruce Banner Syndrome". I'm not a mental health expert or doctor but I never heard of this condition before. He said he was prone to fits of rage/aggressive behavior brought on by stress/conflict.
I also wanted to bring up; No Heroes, the non-fiction book by Danny Coulson(check spelling). Coulson was the senior FBI agent & CT expert who was picked to set-up/run the elite HRT(Hostage Rescue Team). He wrote that he purchased several copies of "The Turner Diaries" & required every unit member to read the book. Coulson wanted the HRT members & FBI staff to have a clear understanding of the anti-government movement and be able to handle those events if required.
CF
The Hulk remarks reminds me of a recent conversation I had with a guy who claimed to be a OEF-OIF combat veteran & ex-sheriff's deputy.
The "ex-cop" said he was under treatment for PTSD & "Bruce Banner Syndrome". I'm not a mental health expert or doctor but I never heard of this condition before. He said he was prone to fits of rage/aggressive behavior brought on by stress/conflict.
I also wanted to bring up; No Heroes, the non-fiction book by Danny Coulson(check spelling). Coulson was the senior FBI agent & CT expert who was picked to set-up/run the elite HRT(Hostage Rescue Team). He wrote that he purchased several copies of "The Turner Diaries" & required every unit member to read the book. Coulson wanted the HRT members & FBI staff to have a clear understanding of the anti-government movement and be able to handle those events if required.
CF
Double Naught Spy
New member
Sophistication? Interesting classification for such shooters. If a rampage shooter shows any time of planning, they are sophisticated?
I am 100% certain Charlie Whitman and Sylvia Seegrist, the Columbine shooters, etc. had not see such videos because they weren't being made back then, but they had their own forms of sophistication. Robert Wayne Gladden, Jr. was supposed to have been quite sophisticated because of the way he snuck the shotgun into school, but beyond that, no big plans.
Suggesting rampage response videos are teaching these people are like saying violent video games are teaching these people. Having a bit of gear and some tacticool accessories or homemade bombs. You could get the same input from Hollywood movies.
Some bad guys are more difficult to deal with, no doubt and it does seem to just about throw the cops completely out of their comfort zone when the bad guys show any particular skill, talent, or planning, but that is the nature of the beast. Some are going to have it. Some always have.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Columbine shooters had a well worked out bomb plot that failed because they didn't have the techy know-how for the bombs. That was sophisticated compared to just shooting up the place -that wasn't their plan.
Some shooters have set up to hit the fleeing victims.
Cho and Aurora certainly showed planning.
Some shooters have set up to hit the fleeing victims.
Cho and Aurora certainly showed planning.
zincwarrior
New member
The UT tower shooter was extremely well trained. It took civilians pinning him down with hunting rifles to break up his attack.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Marine, IIRC. While not rampagers - the Miami shootout folks were not novices.
As an aside - in the movie Full Metal Jacket - R. Lee Ermey (familiar to us) plays a DI. He goes off on being a great Marine marksman and cites Whitman and Lee Harvey Oswald as exemplars.
Dr. David Grossman - psychologist and solider argues that some rampage killers get enough simulated practice on modern video games to be decent shooters and lose their inhibitions.
Anyway, I told the concerned party that we have more to worry about rather than the HPD training videos. Someone who wanted info has more choices than one can shake a stick out.
The issue of whether a mass showing primes someone to be a shooter is a different issue than tactics.
I also mentioned that the best defense is training folks on campus with guns and permits but that I doubt the questioning group would go along with that. Horrors.
As an aside - in the movie Full Metal Jacket - R. Lee Ermey (familiar to us) plays a DI. He goes off on being a great Marine marksman and cites Whitman and Lee Harvey Oswald as exemplars.
Dr. David Grossman - psychologist and solider argues that some rampage killers get enough simulated practice on modern video games to be decent shooters and lose their inhibitions.
Anyway, I told the concerned party that we have more to worry about rather than the HPD training videos. Someone who wanted info has more choices than one can shake a stick out.
The issue of whether a mass showing primes someone to be a shooter is a different issue than tactics.
I also mentioned that the best defense is training folks on campus with guns and permits but that I doubt the questioning group would go along with that. Horrors.
starscream66
New member
I have to agree with Jim March. Not every "rampager" or shooter falls into the same category. Some of these people have legitimate mental illness. *When I say legitimate mental illness I am NOT condoning this behavior what so ever. In my opinion they deserve life in prison or a mental facility (depending on the severity)*. My point is that no two people are exactly the same so we have to break things down into easier categories so that we can try to understand. Bottom line is that I see no reason that anyone should murder innocent people for any reason. Even if someone was bullied as a child (Columbine) they have no sane reason to carry out acts of terror. As I grew up when someone made fun of me my dad taught me "if someone makes fun of you F*** em, if they attack you F*** em up!. Essentially my point is that people have no reason to attack out of agression in a civilian setting, and those that do should be sent upstate for the rest of their lives
Rampage/Spree shooters, mass murders, terrorists...
I think some of the misunderstandings or conflicts about these events come from how you define the labels or terms.
I'd call a subject a spree shooter if they "snap" or "wig out" then start shooting at random people they don't know.
A "mass murderer" would be someone like the Fort Hood Texas officer or the LIRR shooting event subject(who used a Ruger P85 9x19mm pistol). These are criminal acts & maybe terrorism. They used a plan & prepared to kill unarmed people.
In the mid 1990s, there were a series of USPS employees who; "went postal".
Those may be brought on by stress, PTSD or mental health problems.
Crazy people can't "go crazy" on command & they can not buy firearms, load ammunition, draw maps or make plans, drive vehicles THEN claim to be "out of it". Prosecutors & most judges don't buy that BS.
Clyde
ps; LTC David Grossman's non fiction books are worth reviewing. They offer great insight to armed professionals.
I think some of the misunderstandings or conflicts about these events come from how you define the labels or terms.
I'd call a subject a spree shooter if they "snap" or "wig out" then start shooting at random people they don't know.
A "mass murderer" would be someone like the Fort Hood Texas officer or the LIRR shooting event subject(who used a Ruger P85 9x19mm pistol). These are criminal acts & maybe terrorism. They used a plan & prepared to kill unarmed people.
In the mid 1990s, there were a series of USPS employees who; "went postal".
Those may be brought on by stress, PTSD or mental health problems.
Crazy people can't "go crazy" on command & they can not buy firearms, load ammunition, draw maps or make plans, drive vehicles THEN claim to be "out of it". Prosecutors & most judges don't buy that BS.
Clyde
ps; LTC David Grossman's non fiction books are worth reviewing. They offer great insight to armed professionals.
spacecoast
New member
I don't think this is much of a guarantee.
zombietactics
New member
Yep. I have a pretty specific idea what "rampager" calls to my mind ... something different than what Glenn has explained. That's why there can appear to be a disagreement, where there isn't one.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Glenn, sure, but the notion of "sophistication" when compared to completely unplanned or scatterbrained attacks isn't much of a comparison. It sort of reminds me of how cops are generally set up to deal with the LCD of bad guys which often show a low level of competence and preparation, but when going up against competent bad guys who prepared in advance, the cops often suffer. The standard against which sophistication, preparation, and competence are compared is really pretty darned low.
Right. Ayoob and a variety of other professionals are being responsible and doing due diligence in making sure to the reasonable best of their abilities to not train bad guys. Besides, nobody said it was a guarantee.
Mass, rampage, spree, serial, and similar other multiple terms often bring confusion and there is often overlap in categories and whether one falls into one category or not sometimes depends on how you look at the situation and who is defining it. As seen here, folks don't even agree on what the categories mean and so have trouble with discussing them.
Serial killers....
The FBI & one of their former top profilers; Robert Ressler define a "serial killer" as a subject(s) who kill using the same way with the same weapons-methods at different times. Serial killers must also have killed at least three victims.
Ressler, a former US Army officer(0-6/CIDC) , wrote a few non fiction books on criminal behavior & serial killers. To me, he's more creditable than John Douglas.
Douglas, a retired FBI special agent & profiler wrote about a lot of things the FBI either quit using or was later shown to be unrelated/useless.
Clyde
The FBI & one of their former top profilers; Robert Ressler define a "serial killer" as a subject(s) who kill using the same way with the same weapons-methods at different times. Serial killers must also have killed at least three victims.
Ressler, a former US Army officer(0-6/CIDC) , wrote a few non fiction books on criminal behavior & serial killers. To me, he's more creditable than John Douglas.
Douglas, a retired FBI special agent & profiler wrote about a lot of things the FBI either quit using or was later shown to be unrelated/useless.
Clyde
armoredman
New member
You want guarantees? Go to a graveyard, only guaranteed thing in life.
Everything else is a loaded crapshoot, with both sides trying to load it their direction
Yes you are right, it IS Sum of all Fears, Clear and Present Danger was the plane into the Capitol...I lost my Clancy books, last forced move.
Everything else is a loaded crapshoot, with both sides trying to load it their direction
Yes you are right, it IS Sum of all Fears, Clear and Present Danger was the plane into the Capitol...I lost my Clancy books, last forced move.
Suicide by cop, spree killers...
Some rampage or "spree" killers also want to provoke a LE response so they can go out in a "suicide by cop" event. That factor is a part of Hunter's novel; Soft Target.
LE & homeland security groups train for these incidents knowing that a violent subject(s) may be unstable or want to force a confrontation by attacking unarmed people or public places(schools, malls, movie theaters, etc).
It's a good chance that a violent subject you may encounter in a spree shooting won't really care about being arrested or even shot by SWAT/LE.
Clyde
Some rampage or "spree" killers also want to provoke a LE response so they can go out in a "suicide by cop" event. That factor is a part of Hunter's novel; Soft Target.
LE & homeland security groups train for these incidents knowing that a violent subject(s) may be unstable or want to force a confrontation by attacking unarmed people or public places(schools, malls, movie theaters, etc).
It's a good chance that a violent subject you may encounter in a spree shooting won't really care about being arrested or even shot by SWAT/LE.
Clyde