Do Dinosaurs still roam the earth?
- Thread starter 44 AMP
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44caliberkid
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I sure see a lot of Five Sevens sitting on gun store shelves and tables, when every other type of pistol is sold out. They aren’t setting the world on fire with sales of those. I would also buy a Six Two in a heartbeat. Maybe a 7.62x25 +P, just for Six Two’s, Toks and CZ52’s. I’ve fired some screamin’ reloads out of my CZ, but that was 30 years ago and I don’t have the data anymore.
May not be selling because ammo has been impossible to get or about $1.50 per round when found.
Personally the only interest I have in small bore pistols, (other than .22LR) including high velocity ones is in "specialty guns".
.22 Hornet, (Contender), .221 Fireball (XP-100), and .222 Remington (Contender). These guns have the accuracy to use these varmint rounds to their maximum potential from a handgun. A service class pistol simply doesn't have the accuracy potential to interest me in small bore calibers.
I have a Ruger Super Single Six Convertable, and in a little over 40 years I haven't even fired 2 boxes of .22WMR ammo through it. Lots of .22LR though.
A high speed .22cal semi auto (such as the 5.7mm) simply doesn't fit what I do, doesn't do anything that isn't already better covered by something else I have.
IF it were a precision instrument (like my single shots) then it would have some appeal to me, but as a service type pistol, not so much.
Sounds to me like you want a new design gun made to shoot the old Soviet version of the even older Mauser .30 round. and would be even happier with a "+p+" version. in a gun that would take it. Be aware there would be liability issues with such a round, if your "7.62 Super" will chamber in original 7.62 Tok guns. That alone will turn manufacturers off to the idea...
That's an interesting idea, but there is no significant market demand (or even awareness) and so no gun or ammo maker is going to invest in the cost of making those, without a clearly forseeable return on their investment.
Wave a couple million $ in front of Ruger, and they'll probably make it. Order a few thousand guns, (and pay cash up front) and I'm pretty sure they'll make what ever you want. Otherwise, dream on.
you might consider starting a "club" or something and getting investors who want what you want to start a fund, to pool together enough money to get them made, just watch out for the legal snags that might be lurking. I have no personal experience with that.
Good Luck!
.22 Hornet, (Contender), .221 Fireball (XP-100), and .222 Remington (Contender). These guns have the accuracy to use these varmint rounds to their maximum potential from a handgun. A service class pistol simply doesn't have the accuracy potential to interest me in small bore calibers.
I have a Ruger Super Single Six Convertable, and in a little over 40 years I haven't even fired 2 boxes of .22WMR ammo through it. Lots of .22LR though.
A high speed .22cal semi auto (such as the 5.7mm) simply doesn't fit what I do, doesn't do anything that isn't already better covered by something else I have.
IF it were a precision instrument (like my single shots) then it would have some appeal to me, but as a service type pistol, not so much.
Sounds to me like you want a new design gun made to shoot the old Soviet version of the even older Mauser .30 round. and would be even happier with a "+p+" version. in a gun that would take it. Be aware there would be liability issues with such a round, if your "7.62 Super" will chamber in original 7.62 Tok guns. That alone will turn manufacturers off to the idea...
That's an interesting idea, but there is no significant market demand (or even awareness) and so no gun or ammo maker is going to invest in the cost of making those, without a clearly forseeable return on their investment.
Wave a couple million $ in front of Ruger, and they'll probably make it. Order a few thousand guns, (and pay cash up front) and I'm pretty sure they'll make what ever you want. Otherwise, dream on.
you might consider starting a "club" or something and getting investors who want what you want to start a fund, to pool together enough money to get them made, just watch out for the legal snags that might be lurking. I have no personal experience with that.
Good Luck!
There's no point in a 7.62x25 Tokarev +P or even a Tokarev Super. If it isn't powerful enough as it is, then might as well just replace it with an unlicensed knock-off of the aforementioned 7.5 FK cartridge, which is already practically a Magnum Version of 7.62x25 Tokarev.
Besides, 7.62x25 Tokarev is already more powerful than the 3 major defensive cartridges, pushing anywhere from 390ft-lbs to upwards of 500ft-lbs, effectively beating Standard Pressure 9mm Luger and .45 ACP loads, as well as all but the practically worthless 135gr .40 S&W "poor-man's-.357-SIG" loads, all with better sectional density and a track record for defeating all but Level 3A Body Armor.
So what exactly would be the purpose of an overpressure variant of 7.62x25 Tokarev? It would just start to get into the realms of diminishing returns, considering that in Standard Pressure loads it already beats the established trio of common self-defense cartridges, and once you start getting too far above the energy of those cartridges, you're left with something like full-power .357 Magnum or 10mm Auto, impressive energy, yet so much energy that it has nowhere to go. Not enough to result in visible remote wounding effects, yet so much that without specifically designed projectiles, it'll just punch right through a target without expanding, or otherwise result in fragmentation, which only causes superficial tissue damage.
So yeah, we don't need no stinkin' +Ps, just a new gun to shoot existing loads out of, which are plenty hot enough as is.
Besides, 7.62x25 Tokarev is already more powerful than the 3 major defensive cartridges, pushing anywhere from 390ft-lbs to upwards of 500ft-lbs, effectively beating Standard Pressure 9mm Luger and .45 ACP loads, as well as all but the practically worthless 135gr .40 S&W "poor-man's-.357-SIG" loads, all with better sectional density and a track record for defeating all but Level 3A Body Armor.
So what exactly would be the purpose of an overpressure variant of 7.62x25 Tokarev? It would just start to get into the realms of diminishing returns, considering that in Standard Pressure loads it already beats the established trio of common self-defense cartridges, and once you start getting too far above the energy of those cartridges, you're left with something like full-power .357 Magnum or 10mm Auto, impressive energy, yet so much energy that it has nowhere to go. Not enough to result in visible remote wounding effects, yet so much that without specifically designed projectiles, it'll just punch right through a target without expanding, or otherwise result in fragmentation, which only causes superficial tissue damage.
So yeah, we don't need no stinkin' +Ps, just a new gun to shoot existing loads out of, which are plenty hot enough as is.
And this is what has pretty much always been the situation with the .30 caliber pistol rounds, Luger, Mauser and Tokarev. Without a "magic bullet" they have always been considered poor performers, both as fight stoppers and as game rounds.
High velocity, lots of energy (because of the speed) but the FMJ bullets that have been the standard load for more than a century just don't perform as well as the energy numbers lead one to believe.
this is the downside to high velocity small caliber pistol rounds. The possible velocity falls short of rifle speeds and so doesn't have the same "shock" effect, and the small, light bullets sacrifice the advantages of mass and large frontal area.
Without bullets made to take the most advantage of its abilities and minimize its drawbacks, high energy due to high velocity doesn't deliver as much as it could.
Given the choice, I would use a broadsword over an icepick or a rapier, and a battleaxe is a good thing if you have the strength to wield it effectively. For that matter, so is a mace or warhammer.
To continue the bad metaphor, I feel the big bore magnum is a "chop the head off with one blow" thing compared to a small bore which is more like "poke several small holes rapidly" kind of thing.
Both work, but I have my preferences. You're welcome to your own.
I use the imperfect analogy of the hydraulic cylinder when looking at the short barrel of a handgun.
The larger surface area of a larger bore bullet gives the gas more area to apply the psi to.
If I want something "More" from a handgun,I'll look to a larger bore.
At the same time, there can be "Enough" Which has been flogged to death with the 9mm vs 45 arguement. Which I do not choose to replay right now.
Bottleneck cases do not gain mag capacity. Straightwall cases present diminishing returns as length increases with a pistol. Magazines only allow so much length.
Barrel length/expansion ratio /acceptable pressures limit powder charge to bore proportions.
Priorities and parameters come together in various "Sweet Spots"
Mag capacity
Bullet frontal area
Penetration
Controllability.
And what is dictated by the target. What is adequate.
For myself, for SD applications,I'm skeptical about bore dia's less than 9mm or greater than 45.
And I'm skeptical of bottleneck cartridges. (No mag capacity gain and short necks)
If a rimless,straight walled " 32 Auto Magnum" offered great advantage and market,I suspect we'd have one...or soon will.The slim ,high cap,pocket pistol is in vogue. I do not know what is realistic for performance.
A 100 gr 30 cal bullet at 1400 fps? Maybe? Where does the expansion/penetration tradeoff take it? I don't know,
The 5.7 anf 7.72 Tokarev and 30 Luger are just not on my "Buy" list.
There MIGHT be a market for a rimless equivalent of the 32 H+R ,aimed at slim pocket pistols,. Even single stack capacity should go 10 rounds,
The larger surface area of a larger bore bullet gives the gas more area to apply the psi to.
If I want something "More" from a handgun,I'll look to a larger bore.
At the same time, there can be "Enough" Which has been flogged to death with the 9mm vs 45 arguement. Which I do not choose to replay right now.
Bottleneck cases do not gain mag capacity. Straightwall cases present diminishing returns as length increases with a pistol. Magazines only allow so much length.
Barrel length/expansion ratio /acceptable pressures limit powder charge to bore proportions.
Priorities and parameters come together in various "Sweet Spots"
Mag capacity
Bullet frontal area
Penetration
Controllability.
And what is dictated by the target. What is adequate.
For myself, for SD applications,I'm skeptical about bore dia's less than 9mm or greater than 45.
And I'm skeptical of bottleneck cartridges. (No mag capacity gain and short necks)
If a rimless,straight walled " 32 Auto Magnum" offered great advantage and market,I suspect we'd have one...or soon will.The slim ,high cap,pocket pistol is in vogue. I do not know what is realistic for performance.
A 100 gr 30 cal bullet at 1400 fps? Maybe? Where does the expansion/penetration tradeoff take it? I don't know,
The 5.7 anf 7.72 Tokarev and 30 Luger are just not on my "Buy" list.
There MIGHT be a market for a rimless equivalent of the 32 H+R ,aimed at slim pocket pistols,. Even single stack capacity should go 10 rounds,