Do Dinosaurs still roam the earth?

44 AMP

Staff
I think they didn’t master the extraction of a rimmed revolver case

Then the slide cracked, where the piston pushes it. That was the final nail in the coffin and I quickly got rid of it

I think 88 was the first year the .44 Magnum Desert Eagle showed up. I got a .357 in 84 (their first year I think) and got a .44 Mag in Feb 90. That gun has run well, ad did the .357 I had.

I'm confident that they did master the extraction (and feeding) of the rimmed revolver case, but I think they did a few "tweeks" to the .44 after the initial guns, as the .44 gun I got in 90 has a slightly different gas piston arrangement than the earlier .357 does. The .357 has the piston retained by a small roll pin, and it allows some "wiggle". MY .44 has the pistol retained by a stud on the recoil spring guide assy, and allows a lot more "wiggle room", which is likely something they changed after initial production, to allow more "give" in the system to prevent the cracking you experienced with your gun. I don't have any proof, but that's my theory, anyway.

The manual that came with mine lists a few different ammo brands and loads , and those are the only ones the maker stands behind. If your gun doesn't run on what they list, they will fix it. Anything else, MAY run in your gun, but if not, the maker isn't going to do anything to your gun to "fix" that.

My experience with handloads in DE's is, that they need to run loads at the hot end of the range, especially with lighter bullets. The guns also need to be held a certain way, or they won't work well.

The Magazine needs to "float" with no pressure on the bottom or they will misfeed. No "cup and saucer" grip for the DE or it won't run right.

And, of course NO LEAD BULLETS!
Jacketed only, full power only, and held the right way and they work. Or anyway the 4 of them that I've had did and do.

Very nice guns Classic 12, those three look just like ones I have. Now, what you need to complete the set is a Wildey and a Coonan! :D
 

TRX

New member
> the .460 Rowland isn't a "good fit". Close in some ways but not quite there. I was looking for guns that deliver "full" magnum performance for their bore size
----
Loads for the .460 vary, but they're all solidly in commercial-production .44 Magnum territory. My 1911 in .460 is more comfortable to shoot than a friend's .44 Redhawk, (with theoretically equivalent loads) but that's because revolver grips and my hands don't play nice together.

The "other" .460 - .460 S&W - came to my attention recently. As a .454 Casull is a stretched .45 Colt, the S&W is a stretched .454. Basic ballistics are:

200gr/2,300 fps (2,350 ft-lb)
260gr/2,000 fps (2, 309 ft-lb)
300gr/2,060 fps (2,825 ft-lb)

compared to:

240gr/1,180 fps (741 ft-lb) (Remington .44 Magnum)
240gr/2,475 fps (1,160 ft-lb) (Cor-Bon .44 Magnum)
150gr/2,820 fps (2,648 ft-lb) (Nosler .308 Winchester)
143gr/2,710 fps (2,283 ft-lb) (Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor)
300gr/2,069 fps (2,853 ft-lb) (modern "Ruger" load)

That .460 Smith looks like a nice rifle cartridge...

[ballistics data from Wikipedia]
 

44 AMP

Staff
240gr/1,180 fps (741 ft-lb) (Remington .44 Magnum)
240gr/2,475 fps (1,160 ft-lb) (Cor-Bon .44 Magnum)

Did you, perhaps, miscopy something from Wiki ??

Or are they actually saying that there is a Cor-Bon .44 Mag 240gr load that does 2,475fps??

and if so, out of what???

Pardon me for doubting the accuracy of the information, but showing a .44 mag load that is more than DOUBLE realistic velocity simply puts me off a bit.
 

RETG

New member
At first I was going to give a smart remark of:
Since I used to work in Northern VA, right across the border from DC, and going to DC all the time; Dinosaurs existed...just visit the Capital:D.

However, to stay on subject...yes, I own a 44 mag, loaded with Cor-bon hunter 300 (or 305) gr ammo. Carried sometimes in northern WY/ID and western MT.
 

44caliberkid

New member
I have a first generation Desert Eagle 44 mag that was made by IMI. It feeds and functions just fine. A friend had one that worked fine too. And I'm not meticulous about keeping it clean either.
 

gemihur

New member
I'd use this one, a 444 marlin
SSK-444-Marlin.jpg
 

Forte S+W

New member
Thompson Center Contenders are pretty cool, they come chambered in just about everything there is, so if only compensators having one shot worries you, then you can always get one chambered in something absurdly powerful, insuring that if you do your part, whatever you hit is going down. :D

As far as recreation is concerned, single shots are plenty of fun to shoot, and are easily reloaded, so unless you have an extremely short attention, it ought to keep you entertained for as long as you can bear to shoot one.
 

44 AMP

Staff
I enjoy my Contenders, I have a couple of frames and about a dozen barrels in calibers ranging from .22LR to .45-70. I like them a lot.

What I don't do is post pictures of them in threads about SEMI AUTO magnum pistols....:rolleyes:
 

Pumpkin

New member
I'll take this one..Magnum Wheel chime in if I get something wrong about yours..

The original Auto Mag Pistol (note: two words, not one), is recoil operated. In uses a multiple lug bolt (usually compared to the M16 bolt - because people know what that looks like).

The bolt is cammed by a pin near the rear of the action, and assisted by a torsion spring inside the cocking piece.

Bolt and barrel assembly, locked together, recoil straight back about a half inch (0.47" on the gun I just checked. At this point, the barrel stops, the bolt is unlocked, and is struck by the accelerator, giving it an additional rearward thrust. It considered to be a short recoil action.

Auto Mag II (.22WMR) is a retarded blowback action. (if that's not PC its a delayed blowback action..;))

Auto Mags III, IV, and V are variations of the Browning Tilt barrel lockup system.

The LAR Grizzly and the Coonan are the same, tilt barrel lockup.

The Desert Eagle is gas operated. Fixed barrel. Multiple lug rotating bolt. Gas port is right ahead of the chamber. Gas runs in a channel in the barrel assy, underneath the bore, almost to the muzzle, where it turns 180 and pushes the piston to operate the slide.

The Wildey is gas operated, using a different approach. Gas is ported from the barrel a bit ahead of the chamber, and then directed to the underbarrel piston through the (hand adjustable) nut.
The 22 Auto Mag has a hollow chamber around the chamber, like a sleeve. At the end of the chamber just past the case mouth, there are some radially machined ports that allow gas to impart pressure on the back of the case delaying case movement through similarly machined ports. If you look at a fired case, you will see ( I think 6-8) gas spots around the case about an 1/8" from the end.
This gives the delayed blowback, mine has always been very reliable.
 

44 AMP

Staff
Back when they were still fairly new items, a couple of my friends got the .22WMR Auto Mag IIs.

Both were quite reliable, but only with the ammo they liked. One ran great on Winchester ammo and choked on everything else, and the other did the same but ran on CCI ammo and choked on Winchester, and anything else.

If you like the .22WMR they're cool, But if not, I'd say don't waste your money. Personally I've never been a fan of the .22WMR, always thought it was too expensive for what you got, but that's just my personal opinion.
 

Forte S+W

New member
@44 AMP
What are your thoughts on the FK BRNO Field Pistol?

Over the past few years it has received a lot of attention for its unique design as well as the terminal ballistics of the proprietary 7.5FK cartridge (basically 7.62x25 Tokarev on steroids) it comes chambered in.

Seeing as you're a Magnum Pistol Aficionado, I was curious what your take on it is.
 

44 AMP

Staff
@44 AMP
What are your thoughts on the FK BRNO Field Pistol?

I had to go look that one up. In doing so, I did recall hearing a little bit about ti when it first came out half a dozen years ago...

The specs are impressive, and the price tag is flat out shocking! :eek:

At seven thousand five hundred dollars ($7,500) MSRP, I won't be doing any hands on testing or be owning one, short of winning the lottery jackpot.

$75 for a box of ammo (coming soon..) doesn't endear it to me, either.

Ok, based only on the online data I found (mostly on Wiki, and therefore possibly not 100% accurate) it shapes up to be an interesting, powerful round in a decent package for an outrageously (and barking stupid IMHO) high price.

The gun is a beefed up CZ-75 design, an inch or so longer than the Colt Govt model and about half a pound heavier. Nothing wrong with that. The CZ75 design has proven itself robust, durable and functional for quite a while now.

15shot magazine. A plus for those considering it for duty/self defense use. A drawback in states with magazine capacity limits of less than 15 (of which there are several, today). Certainly they could make a 10rnd mag for it, if the demand were there...

The cartridge numbers are impressive. HOWEVER, paper numbers are not real world results. And, I noted in the comparison tables, that the velocities given for the rounds they compare it to, (9mm, 40, 10mm .357, .44mag etc) are not the highest velocities possible with those rounds. That is a common practice, to show the new round in the best possible light.

So, what is it, actually? Again, according to the Wiki data, its a .30 caliber, firing 95-103gr bullets at 1900-2000fps. Case length is 33mm which roughly matches magnum revolver rounds, and head size is the 10mm/,40 S&W size, which roughly splits the difference between the 9mm Luger and .45ACP sizes.

Listed pressure is slightly over 50,000 psi.
So, its a "smallbore" (.30) compared to most pistol rounds, its uber high pressure, and its very, very fast, shooting rather light weight bullets.

Remember that our formula for calculating energy is heavily weighted to velocity, so a light very fast bullet gives equal (or even higher) energy numbers than a heavier slower one. So while the numbers are large they don't tell us the actual performance in game, or humans. They show us potential, yes, but a LOT depends on what the actual bullets really do after they hit.

The .30 Luger, Mauser and Russian rounds are also fast (though not nearly as much as the 7.5 FK) but are not well thought of a good stoppers or game rounds due to the usual FMJ bullets they use.

Now, this new round, having the benefit of nearly a century of observed past performance to draw from, and the benefits of modern engineering and metalurgy OUGHT to be significantly better than the old cartridges it is compared with. On paper, it certainly is. In the game fields and on the street? there is no data yet available on which to base conclusions.

what boggles my little mind the most, is the price. Clearly this is not, and never was intended to be a mass market item.

which is also ok, if that's what the maker wants. But this isn't even close to something regular folks would, or could buy. the folks who buy quarter million dollar high performance sports cars, might buy a $7,500 pistol (if they were into pistols) but the rest of us are simply not likely to.

IF the price were half that, they'd probably sell a bunch. If it were a quarter of that, they'd sell boatloads..If it were 1/10 that ($750) they'd sell every one they could make faster than they could make them, provided there was ammo available....

I think they never intended to make or sell very many, its a technical exercise and the high price is so that they get some of what they spent on R&D back from the few guns they will sell.

So, my take is that its a "small" rifle round (,30 cal & 50K psi) in a beefed up service class pistol design at a price point that guarantees it will not be a mass market success. Terminal ballistics will depend on the quality and performance of the bullets used, which should be good, but we don't have enough real world results to know, yet.

I'd bet that recoil will be "snappy" though not terribly "heavy" the way pistols shooting much heavier bullets at high speeds are.

I expect accuracy to be adequate for the intended uses, though none of the tilt barrel lock up systems are as accurate as fixed barrel systems can be, if you're not shooting benchrest, it should be plenty good enough.

here's the kicker, keep an eye on it and see if the round gets licensed for other people to use. If it does, there is a CHANCE for commercial success, if not, its going to stay a niche item (in a very small niche) and will probably go out of production before too long.

You asked, and that's my take on it, so far.
 

Forte S+W

New member
There's actually a much cheaper polymer-framed model of the FK BRNO called the PSD with a substantially lower price point of $1650 MSRP.
 

44caliberkid

New member
I think Ruger should make the Five Seven in 7.62 Tokarev, Hornady could craft a suitable bullet for it, an 85 or 90 grain pill @ 1700 - 2000 FPS. Call it the Six Two. It would revive a great cartridge without having to reinvent the wheel.
 

ballardw

New member
I think Ruger should make the Five Seven in 7.62 Tokarev, Hornady could craft a suitable bullet for it, an 85 or 90 grain pill @ 1700 - 2000 FPS. Call it the Six Two. It would revive a great cartridge without having to reinvent the wheel.
I think a nice 65 to 70gr like the Gold Dot would be appropriate and might get the round to fit in magazines/frames like 1911 a bit better for feeding.

Don't forget the .223 Timbs ( https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/08/11/223-timbs-brief-history/ ) , 7.62x25 using .223 bullets in .30 sabots.

Which might also be interesting in the FK BRNO round as well.
 

Forte S+W

New member
44caliberkid said:
I think Ruger should make the Five Seven in 7.62 Tokarev, Hornady could craft a suitable bullet for it, an 85 or 90 grain pill @ 1700 - 2000 FPS. Call it the Six Two. It would revive a great cartridge without having to reinvent the wheel.

I've been saying this practically since the day that the Ruger-57 was announced, even e-mailed Ruger's CEO about it as a suggestion.
Unfortunately, the enduring sentiment is; "Nobody would pay $700 for a brand new Pistol chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev when they could buy an old MilSurp Tokarev Pistol for $300, despite the fact that practically everyone who already owns a MilSurp Tokarev Pistol says otherwise. (I own a Romanian Tokarev TTC, but I would buy a Ruger-762 for $700 in a heartbeat.)

Norinco actually makes a modern Pistol chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev known as the NP762 which is loosely based on a SIGsauer P220, but since it's made in China it cannot be imported into the USA. However, it is imported into Canada of all places by Dominion Arms.
 

ballardw

New member
I've been saying this practically since the day that
Unfortunately, the enduring sentiment is; "Nobody would pay $700 for a brand new Pistol chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev"

Just like no one would buy a sort of reproduction of a 150-year-old single action revolver for 700?!?
Or a remake of a 110 year old single action semi-auto?
Or a single-shot rifle? (How many Ruger No. 1s have been sold?)
 
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