DA Revolver vs. 1911A1 Reliability

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Hal

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Thanks buddy!

I've been Jonesing for a snubby M69 ever since S&W came out with the L frame .44 magnum.

My original idea was to have one custom made from a 4 1/4"- -but - -due to the two piece barrel, tat was just a dream.

It took years for a snub to show up at a local gun store. My original idea there was to wait for a used one to turn up - but - it seemed like that anyone that bought one new going in what to expect and bought one because that's what they wanted & they hung onto it.

Anyhow - very happy with mine! The Galeco Shoulder holster - not so much.
$172 for something that cuts a line in my neck after wearing it for 5 min.
 

silvermane_1

New member
I thought about this thread in the last few days.....

I have a Kimber 1911 stainless - which works and shoots as any Kimber should be expected to (well and very accurate).
Recently, a "need" developed....
A tenant in one of our rentals contacted us from the hospital.
She told us that - she had to move out ASAP - her boyfriend had beat her half to death and he was stalking her.

Good chance he was going to show up and cause a lot of trouble for all concerned when we met her for the walk through & to collect the keys.

I/we never really met the guy, but, from her description he's big - real big - and can be really mean....& possibly armed...

The .45acp Shield, 9mm SIG 938 & Ruger LCP - all of a sudden felt - inadequate...
Having no holster for the Kimber - I decided to run out and pick one up.

While at the gun store, I was admiring a nice old S&W M28 they had. The sales guy mentioned it would make a great gun to go along with me on the walk through.

I told him, "Maybe, but, I'd feel a lot better with one of those S&W M69 snub noses"...

He pointed to a far counter and told me go over there for that!!!

Soooooo---early Christmas present for me & my personal answer to this thread & the whole issue of reliability...

I consider a 240 grain JHP @ roughly 1100 fps - out of a platform I have complete confidence in (D/a S&W revolver) to be the most reliable thing - - I can take into harm's way....

Sometimes - there's just more to the question of something than what meets the eye.
A M69 subby?, you would probably better served with the Kimber with +P ammo or even 45 Super, 44 mag loses a lot out of a snubby, unless you "roll your own" with fast burning powder and even then you would still be better served with the Kimber 1911 in 45 ACP +P and/or 45 Super there Hal.
 

Nanuk

New member
A M69 subby?, you would probably better served with the Kimber with +P ammo or even 45 Super, 44 mag loses a lot out of a snubby, unless you "roll your own" with fast burning powder and even then you would still be better served with the Kimber 1911 in 45 ACP +P and/or 45 Super there Hal.

With light for caliber bullets the 44 mag is still faster, maybe not a lot but you can also run full wadcutters..... I have been Jonesing after a 45 Super for years though.
 

Hal

New member
A M69 subby?,
Yes sir...have wanted one since an article in a gun rag decades ago. They reviewed two different S&W M29's that had been chopped down to a 2" barrel, the frame cut down, ported and one had the trigger guard Fitzed.
They ran a whole bunch of different loads through them & came away with the surprising results that they were accurate, manageable and not bad recoiling at all - even with full boogie loads.

I have the utmost unwavering belief in my abilities with the D/A S&W revolver.
While I don't prefer the L frame - and/or any round butt S&W, I'll still rely on that before anything else.

Maybe you would be better served - - but - let me assure you, I'm not comfortable enough with the extremely accurate Kimber to say, "If I can see it, I can hit it".
 

USNRet93

New member
Good chance he was going to show up and cause a lot of trouble for all concerned when we met her for the walk through & to collect the keys.

I/we never really met the guy, but, from her description he's big - real big - and can be really mean....& possibly armed...

Well, did he? Show up?
 

Hal

New member
Thank God - -no.

At least - not yet anyhow.

I'm glad at this point I don't have a clean sweep (10 for 10) of the 10 commandments....I'm still holding onto that 9 out of 10 record.
 

Webleymkv

New member
There is a flaw in the original question: which specific DA revolver are we comparing to a 1911? I've personally had S&W, Colt, Ruger, Taurus, H&R, and Webley revolvers and they wall worked slightly differently and had different numbers of moving parts.

Even if we had a specific model in mind, however, the notion that a count of moving parts (or by extension complexity of design) is a good predictor of reliability is fundamentally flawed. A flintlock is much simpler and has far fewer moving parts than either a DA revolver or 1911, but few would argue that a Brown Bess is more reliable. My 2002 Ford Crown Victoria is far more complicated and has many more moving parts than my Grandfather's 1924 Ford Model T, but few would say that the old Tin Lizzie is more dependable.
 

44 AMP

Staff
Even if we had a specific model in mind, however, the notion that a count of moving parts (or by extension complexity of design) is a good predictor of reliability is fundamentally flawed.

Thank you for remembering what the OP was about.
 

zoo

Moderator
I'm not sure a part count on any given firearm is an adequate basis on which to determine reliability/dependability.

Such a premise strikes me as sorta silly although granted at a certain point it might become relevant.

Frankly though I'm not sure at what point that may be so.
 

Blue Duck

New member
I have shot both extensively for over 40yrs, and seen quite a few examples of both types of guns give problems, and examples of both types of guns that practically never had a failure.
Many of the revolvers that gave problems, came from the factory with quality control issues, but a top quality revolver, once thoroughly vetted, and the possibility of factory defects eliminated, usually proved to be very very reliable, and would then only display a problem due usually to ammo issues, with high primers being one of the most common problems seen. And that problem can be eliminated by checking all of you carry ammo before depending on it. This is done by actually loading every single round in the cylinder of said gun and then spin the cylinder in the gun to see if any high primer issues show up.
Lint or dirt, or unfired powder granules getting under the extractor plate will be the next most common failure. But load a proven revolver with good ammo, and give the cylinder a spin to eliminate the question of a high primer, then put it in you holster and you will probably have a gun that is pretty much 100% reliable at least for the first 6 rounds in the cylinder.
The 1911 can also be extremely reliable, and the gun I usually trust my life with, but I have seen plenty of issues with them over the years. One problem with 1911's is there are so dammed many people making them and many to a price point. If the gun was built right, and has been supplied with proven magazines then it's pretty darned reliable. However, I have seen magazines go bad, and that is usually not evident until you experience a stoppage, and some brands of ammo don't always work in some guns.

Some guns are more ammo sensitive them others, but the 1911 does usually handle high primer issues a little better then a revolver and the 1911 will be easier to clear if a problem there does develop, where a revolver will often lock up, but like I said the revolver can be checked ahead of time for high primers, although I have seen primers back out after being fired and start dragging on the recoil plate of the revolver, but usually not to the extent that a stoppage develops but it could happen, however remote.

The other potential problem which could develop in an otherwise proven 1911, is the extractor. I have had this happen a few times on guns that I had trusted for a extended period of time to run 100% previously. I have had the problem develop suddenly on a couple of gun with complete surprise. And once replaced and tuned, returned to 100% reliability. One or two were broken extractors and one I remember just lost it's memory and got out of tune, but it was enough to make an otherwise history of extreme reliability turn to crap on the given gun.

Bottom line is between a good 1911 and a good revolver, I don't seem much difference in reliability if maintained decently. However, if were to start talking about small guns, then I would definitely give the smaller revolvers like the J-frame Smiths the edge on reliability over various small autos. And the smaller autos are harder and usually slower to clear than a 1911 if problems do develop. But we are not talking small auto's here on this thread, but 1911's instead.

My main carry gun is a Colt lightweight Commander and has been for many many years.
 

J.G. Terry

New member
You automatic pistol people are overlooking history. I am surprised at you automatic handgun fanboys ignoring the facts about WWI. At the end of the war all 1911's were withdrawn from service. The 1917's revolvers became the workhorse handgun of the US Army. This US military use continued until the 1917 Smith was replaced with a K Frame Smith in 38 Long Colt caliber. The caliber selection was made to use up the supply of recently discovered 38 Colt cartridges going back to the Philippine Insurrection.

The 1911 was not successful and production was discontinued sometime in mid-1920's. The 1911 was not used mainly due to complex mechanism and general difficulty maintaining fragile Colt automatic handguns. Automatic parts had to be hand fitted etc.

The 1911's inventor no longer designed firearms. The 1911 totally failed as a competition gun of any sort. :eek:All this is common knowledge. History has spoken. This gun, the 1911, was a shameful footnote in history. The WWI era revolvers became so successful that dozens domestic and foreign makers made knock-offs to the present day.
 
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Nanuk

New member
You automatic pistol people are overlooking history. I am surprised at you automatic handgun fanboys ignoring the facts about WWI. At the end of the war all 1911's were withdrawn from service. The 1917's revolvers became the workhorse handgun of the US Army. This US military use continued until the 1917 Smith was replaced with a K Frame Smith in 38 Long Colt caliber. The caliber selection was made to use up the supply of recently discovered 38 Colt cartridges going back to the Philippine Insurrection.

The 1911 was not successful and production was discontinued sometime in mid-1920's. The 1911 was not used mainly due to complex mechanism and general difficulty maintaining fragile Colt automatic handguns. Automatic parts had to be hand fitted etc.

The 1911's inventor no longer designed firearms. The 1911 totally failed as a competition gun of any sort. All this is common knowledge. History has spoken. This gun, the 1911, was a shameful footnote in history. The WWI era revolvers became so successful that dozens domestic and foreign makers made knock-offs to the present day.

Your satire button must be broken.
 

Webleymkv

New member
As to the issue of magazines, sure in a perfect world everyone would have spare mags but we don't live in a perfect world. I seem to remember a few years back a good deal of griping that at least for a short while during one of the Obama-era panic buys that one of the better-reputed handgun makers (I think Sig, but I wouldn't swear to it) was shipping pistols with only one magazine due to the demand for extra mags at the time.

Also, as 44 AMP pointed out, not everyone buys guns new and, in my experience, used guns will come with only one magazine as often as not (usually the guns that do come with spares are the ones that still have their original box and papers with them). Because of this, I can only come to the conclusion that like accessories such as boxes, instruction manuals, cable locks, mag loading tools, etc., any "part" which must be periodically removed from the gun to be used is more likely to get lost or damaged. A lost or damaged speed loader or speed strip is also quite inexpensive to replace. Midwayusa lists HKS speedloaders at about $10 with Safariland Comp I or II's running about a $1 more and speed strips run $7-8 for a two-pack depending on the brand (Bianchi, Desantis, or Tuff Products). The cheapest magazines available for any of my semi-autos that I would personally trust are Mec-Gar's for my CZ-75B, and they run $22.99 each at Midway.

Finally, there seems to be an assumption that everyone who carries a semi-auto bothers to carry a spare mag. I've heard numerous people over the years explain that they carry a semi-auto with xx-capacity so that they don't need to carry a spare mag because "xx-rounds should be more that enough" (personally I think malfunction remediation is the more important reason for a spare mag, but that's just me).

Likewise, the most popular carry guns seem to be those that are very small and thus easy and comfortable to carry. If someone isn't willing to put up with the inconvenience of carrying a larger and likely more capable gun, then I can't help but think that there's at least some likelihood that they won't put up with the inconvenience of carrying a spare mag. A speed-strip full of .38 Special ammo is simply easier and more convenient to carry than a spare mag for even a relatively small gun like my S&W Shield. It seems to me that the faster reload of a semi-auto doesn't make much difference if someone doesn't bother to carry a reload in the first place.
 
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AK103K

New member
Finally, there seems to be an assumption that everyone who carries a semi-auto bothers to carry a spare mag. I've heard numerous people over the years explain that they carry a semi-auto with xx-capacity so that they don't need to carry a spare mag because "xx-rounds should be more that enough" (personally I think malfunction remediation is the more important reason for a spare mag, but that's just me).

Likewise, the most popular carry guns seem to be those that are very small and thus easy and comfortable to carry. If someone isn't willing to put up with the inconvenience of carrying a larger and likely more capable gun, then I can't help but think that there's at least some likelihood that they won't put up with the inconvenience of carrying a spare mag. A speed-strip full of .38 Special ammo is simply easier and more convenient to carry than a spare mag for even a relatively small gun like my S&W Shield. It seems to me that the faster reload of a semi-auto doesn't make much difference if someone doesn't bother to carry a reload in the first place.
I think with any of them, youre going to see those who have a better understanding of the dynamics of things and prepare for that, and you have those who just grab whatever, and go on their merry way, happy in their ignorance, and dont give things much thought beyond that. They have a gun, and consider themselves "prepared".

I wouldnt carry a revolver without a reload, any more than I would carry an auto without one.

And then theres the whole "inconvenience" thing. Gun or reload.

I think youre either serious about things or youre not. There really doesnt seem to be an in-between. From what Ive seen with people I know, and from what many here and some of the other places I go around the web say, I think many to most arent really all that serious and committed, and for many, the convenience/comfort thing, seems to be the big or important thing, when it comes to making a choice.

And all that is just in choice and carrying the gun. All these people carrying these "comfortable" guns, yet how often do you ever see them practicing with them, in any kind of "realistic" manner, from how they carry them, when youre at the range or where ever you practice?
 

pete2

New member
When I carry a semi, it's with the magazine that's in the gun, same with a revolver the cylinder is full but no reload. That's me. Carry what makes you feel good. Mine is usually a 642 with all 5 chambers loaded.
 

44 AMP

Staff
and, we're radically off topic yet again, so we're done. I got enough confirmation of the idiocy of the original statement so I'm satisfied and if you want to keep discussing how many reloads you need, start another thread for that.

Thanks to all who responded to the OP directly.

Closed.
 
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