Convince Me

[chemist308]

Convince me that I need an AR 15

No way! I tried to convince myself of that and failed. I even started a hypothetical SHTF post a while ago. It seems a lot of folks here would reach for an AR-15 in that senario. But what I became convinced of is that although the AR-15 is light and ammo is light, it also hits light. Even the AK round seems better suited when you look at muzzle energies--now if an AR-15 could fire 7.62x39, or better: 7.62x51 for slightly better range and good impact energy at close range!
Wait a minute, I think I know what I just described: an AR-10! And I'm sorry, but the recoil is a little more, but the bulk ammo is just as cheap! If you're willing to spend the cash the AR-15 costs, then the AR-10 is available to you.

 

[Lycanthrope]

Actually you can buy an AR15 lower and 7.62x39 upper for cheaper than an AR10......you can then swap it for other calibers should you decide.....

...like a 6.8 SPC, .243 WSSM, .25 WSSM, .458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf, .204 Ruger, .22 Long Rifle, Etc......

Can't do that with an AR10.

 

[Savage10FP308]

Wow!

"A hollow point 9mm shot from a 16" barrel is much more of an anti-personnel round than the usual 55gr .223 shot from a pea shooter. It will do much more damage with much more stopping power."

9mm 147g Hydra-Shok JHP Muzzle Energy ft/lb: 325
.223/5.56 Federal 69g Sierra Matchking BTHP Muzzle Energy ft/lb: 1380

The 5.56 retains as much energy as the 9mm muzzle energy out to 400 yards!

 

[Art Eatman]

Never shot a people, but I've done in a fair number of coyotes and jackrabbvits with a .223. Inside a hundred yards, there's a double-handful of mush, which I really doubt any slower-moving 9mm bullet can create--hollow-point or no. And at 200, the .223 still makes a serious mess of things.

And for sure, around 50 yards or so, even an FMJ comes all unglued. It also makes serious yuck.

If Sierra still makes them, I highly recommend the 52-grain HPBT.

Art

 

[hags]

9mm stopping power, not muzzle velocity which I'll concede is no doubt much higher with a .223. I doubt that the numbers you quote for the 9 mm were shot out of a 16'' barrel as it's very difficult to obtain test data on 9mm cartridges shot from a 16" barrel. Anti personnel = large and slow, as in .45 acp.

 

[Savage10FP308]

Hags...

Not that I have, but have you ever shot anyone with a .223 or a 9mm? If a 9mm was more devastating than the .223 I would say more LEO's and soldiers would have one. Why would they ignore this "fact" you claim and still use the .223? Anyways, I have had the pleasure of shooting both a Rock River and a DPMS. The two I shot were both very accurate and were both very fun to shoot. If you are thinking about it and you have the money, I would have to suggest you just go for it!

 

[Lycanthrope]

Stopping power is related to tissue disruption.........

In pistol calibers, large bullets tend to rule since the velocities aren't high enough to fragment or sometimes even fully expand hollow point bullets. Therefore, a larger starting diameter makes sense.

When velocity gets higher, you can negate that if you have enough initial penetration. Most 5.56 ammo makes that criteria.

Is a 140gr bullet out of a .270 less of a man stoper than a 147gr 9mm?

 

[Savage10FP308]

Good point!

They make 150g loads for .308 win. Is the stopping power of a 147g 9mm "close" to that of a .308 because they weigh close to the same. If I had one shot at 50 or 500 yards, 9mm carbine or handgun, I believe I would take the .308. Just like the .223 it has a hell of a lot more energy than a 9mm.

 

[hags]

Well, I think stopping power is related to central nervous system disruption and nothing else, you could disrupt the tissue on my arms, feet or face all day long, if you don't bother my CNS then whats the point. I'm still gonna crawl after you until I run out of blood, and a bigger hole would lead to more blood loss anyway. Who the hell is shooting someone at 500 yards, surburban sniper and his mall commandos? I agree I wouldn't choose a handgun caliber for anything over say 100 yards. I was under the delusion that we were talking about self or even home defense, not fantasy scenarios. The last time I checked most LEO's and troopers had sidearms and lots o' them were 9mm.

 

[Lycanthrope]

But...the .223 is going to leave a bigger hole than the 9mm....all the way to your CNS!

We are taling short range....the 5.56 doesn't make a large wound channel at 600 yards and loses effectiveness.

As for handguns.....those are a matter of convenience.......I think most people would prefer a longarm if they knew they were going to engage in a gunfight.

 

[hags]

But...the .223 is going to leave a bigger hole than the 9mm....all the way to your CNS!

At close range? I don't know about that, I'm sure it'd go right through whatever you hit leaving a tiny little hole, all due to the super velocity people have been praising here.
Ahhhhh, screw it, if someone's in my house or on my property I'm grabbing my 870P with 7 00/slugs in the tube and one in the chamber. Now there's a really big hole!!!!!
Lycanthrope thanks for keeping it civil, I appreciate this healthy and friendly discussion.

 

[Lycanthrope]

Hey, I'm not running in front of my AR or your 9mm within 50 yards!

Both will get it done!

 

[riverrat66]

AR's are nice for plinking but lack a proper cal for killing.

Have you ever seen what the .223 will do to the human body? I have and it ain't pretty. The M-16 (.223) was designed primarily for close combat in the jungles of Vietnam. The M-14 (.308) was considered too "big" of a caliber for the dense jungles although the 7.62 NATO round was much more devastating. I personally preferred the M-14 over the M-16 for personal reasons.

An AR-15 is not the weapon you should use for home defense neither is an M1-A or an AK.

Lycanthrope thanks for keeping it civil, I appreciate this healthy and friendly discussion.

That's the way all discussions should be even if everyone doesn't agree. We can all still be civil and friendly, right?

 

[chemist308]

you can then swap it for other calibers should you decide.....
...like a 6.8 SPC, .243 WSSM, .25 WSSM, .458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf, .204 Ruger, .22 Long Rifle, Etc......

But those are all short rounds. I'm by no means an expert but you're still not getting the energy or range of the 7.62x51 with any of those past 200 yards. Plus the NATO ammo is cheaper, and you're not having fun at the range if every time you open another box you're really thinking "'?">:? this is getting expensive!"

Apples to Apples at the muzzle:
5.56 impact energy: 1282lbs (55gr remington umc load)
30 carbine impact energy: 1414lbs (110gr remington umc load)
7.62x39 impact energy: 1552lbs (123gr remington umc load)
7.62x51 (308) impact energy: 2648lbs (150gr remington umc load)

Apples to Apples at 100yards:
5.56 impact energy: 929lbs (55gr remington umc load)
30 carbine impact energy: 600lbs (110gr remington umc load)
7.62x39 impact energy: 1159lbs (123gr remington umc load)
7.62x51 (308) impact energy: 2137lbs (150gr remington umc load)

Apples to Apples at 200yards:
5.56 impact energy: 660lbs (55gr remington umc load)
30 carbine impact energy: 373lbs (110gr remington umc load)
7.62x39 impact energy: 865lbs (123gr remington umc load)
7.62x51 (308) impact energy: 1705lbs (150gr remington umc load)

What i'm really trying to say: inside of 50 yards I wouldn't hesitate to shoot at deer sized game with any of these rifles. Even though I don't like the idea of firing a varmit rifle at something that large, with a well placed shot impact energy says we get a good enough wound cavity--especially if we're going for the 69gr bullet for its 'gymnastics' on the inside. At 100 yards the 30 carbine is out of the running and the 223 is lagging--they'll do it but not your first choice. At 200 yards there is only one clear choice. Still, the idea of an AR15 in 7.62x39 sounds real tempting. Will it take 20 round clips or only 5 round clips like in 50 beowulf?