Concerned about lethality of .223/5.56

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pturner67

New member
here's something else for you:


5.56 NATO Ball Ammunition Ballistic Comparison

velocity (fps)
meters M193 M855
0 3,200 3,100
100 2,774 2,751
200 2,374 2,420
300 2,012 2,115
400 1,680 1,833
500 1,373 1,569
600 1,106 1,323
700 995 1,106
800 927 1,010


a 9mm muzzle velocity is generally around 950-1100 fps...that's at the muzzle...so, a 5.56 at 500-600 meters has a higher velocity than a 9mm at point blank range...yes, the 5.56 bullet is smaller but so frickin what...lol...bottom line is that 5.56 will kill you without a doubt...and from a considerable distance
 

gunsgongcrazy

Moderator
You are correct that these are unlikely to penetrate a common interior wall. They are also unlikely to physiologically stop someone. You may also want to familiarize yourself with your state laws since both may be regarded the same as lethal force from a legal perspective. You probably don't want to be in a situation where you are facing an immediate threat of death or serious injury and all you've got is rock salt or a bean bag. You'll notice police do not use rock salt at all and when they use less lethal munitions, the officer will be wearing body armor, have been specially trained in the use of such ammo, and backed by another officer ready to use lethal force.

The flip side of that is both bean bags and rock salt can cause death or serious bodily injury. So at a minimum, I would get training on how to use them; because if you try to use them in a situation that doesn't warrant such force or use them in the wrong way (under the minimum distance for example), you could be facing serious liability.

So from my perspective, those rounds have limited utility for most civilians. If my life is in danger, I want something more effective than a bean bag. If my life is not in danger, then a 12ga is probably the wrong tool to be using - especially since I don't have training on bean bag rounds, body armor, or another person backing me up with lethal force.


agreed 100%...I just posted that about the Rock Salt and bean bag for arguments sake...personally, I have 3.5 Magnum turkey loads in my shotgun.

If I've said it once, I' said it one hundred times: The sound of a shotgun being racked is not some magical noise that makes people run away.

It is if you live in the "Hood" and there is some punk kid looking to rip you off not realizing you are home. Most of the time thieves are weak, coward individuals looking for opportunity. Opportunity strikes when nobody is home. Nearly all home robberies take place when nobody is there. The sound of a pump shotgun will definitely put the chills up the unexpected robber's spine and send him running. Pavlov baby! Now, if we are talking in time of war, you are 100% correct. This is just my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
 

Father Time

New member
The sound of a pump shotgun will definitely put the chills up the unexpected robber's spine and send him running.

If they hear it...

If they aren't high on something...

If they don't have a friend or two and feel confident in numbers...

Thats too many "if"s for my taste. Not to mention if they hear you then you have just given away your postion.
 
Yeah, 5.56 is such a weak round...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=17111.0

I have seen this posted several times now. Sometimes folks claim that the bullet didn't actually even hit the bone, that the bone was shattered from hydrostatic shock.

The second set of images seems to show burn marks inside the wound.

Those are some amazing wounds, but I haven't gotten anything like that to happen shooting hogs. It would be great if I could, but the damage is all much more localized.
 

briandg

New member
I hate do defend the practice of attempting to scare off bad guys with either the presentation of a gun or the sound of it being operated, but

WHY NOT?

maybe there is a 10% chance that the felon will flee in terror because he heard the mouse gun .25 slide operating, or the shotgun racking. That is a 10% probablility that you won't be robbed, murdered or injured.

In the 90% of cases that it doesn't work, then, you go with the intended purpose of having a defensive firearm and you shoot the wanker in the chest with whatever you have that failed to frighten him.

Rack the shotgun. See if it works. Shoot in case of abject failure. With a little luck, having a chunk of the point man's spleen or spinal cord slap them in the face will cause his droogs to bail out, making that a 100% probability that firing a single round ended the armed confrontation.

Racking a shotgun isn't a stupid idea. It's a reasonable attempt at intimidation that costs nothing, unless you subscribe to the individual ideas that either the thing should have a round in the chamber 24/7, or that you should shoot from stealth with the invaders not knowing that they are about to face deadly force. many would believe that the chance of ending the confrontation without having to enter into a gunfight is worth taking.
 

rickyrick

New member
The sound of a shotgun may result in a violent response. Your intention should be stopping that threat. Once a loaded weapon is pointed at someone its game over, time to shoot. If you wanna get the bad guy to leave without shooting him, don't pick up the weapon. Running into an intruder in the hallway is not the time for counseling...........
 

briandg

New member
The sound of a shotgun may result in a violent response.

I'm not certain that I understand your point. My post said that if the sound doesn't work, you automatically go to the next level, that may lead to a shooting.

Are you advocating that a person NOT arm himself in the presence of an intruder, and NOT engage in any form of intimidation or psychological attack?

Some bad guys may spare your life, property, children, wife, etc, if you don't offer resistance, but I'm not going to advocate that anyone place either himself or family in that situation.

Well, in all honesty, I did one time counsel a particularly unpleasant neighbor to keep his only handgun in the end table instead of night stand, with the worst possible results sincerely hoped for...
 

briandg

New member
the photos posted give a perfect example of what the 5.56 is intended to do. It may not be an accurate representation of every single hit ever made with the rifle, but it does present a fair representation of what it is capable of.

That sort of damage in the torso would have put an end to a confrontation instantly, I guess.
 

Father Time

New member
Are you advocating that a person NOT arm himself in the presence of an intruder

Nobody is advocating being unarmed. However chosing a weapon because it makes a loud "intimidating" sound when being charged is foolish.
Now if you want to chose a weapon like a shotgun because its powerful, simple to use, reliable, or simply because you birdhunt/skeet shoot a lot and are more comfortable with shotguns than other choices then thats fine.
 

rickyrick

New member
I was typing that while you were posting yours I guess.

While it could be scary, I don't see it as a time for experimentation.
 

lawnboy

New member
5.56 did not replace the 30-06. It replaced the7.62x51 (.308), which had previously replaced the 30-06 (7.62x63).

The 5.56/.223 does not shoot flatter and farther than the 30-06 or the .308.

Feeling better about the .22lr has no effect on its performance as a defense round. It sucks. Unless it's all you have don't choose it.
 

briandg

New member
Unless it's all you have don't choose it.

That is one of the more lucid points made here. The choice of a defensive/combat weapon should be made based on only a few criteria. Is it powerful enough to disable/incapacitate with only a single round? Is it accurate enough that you can make at least one hit? can you quickly acquire target and make a hit after missing, or making a double tap?

Don't choose something that fails to meet those needs because it meets other needs that are less important, such as availability of ammo. The needs for concealed carry are different, and they outweigh most of the ones listed above.

The point is, use whatever you can get, but choose weapons that are up to the challenge of probably making a stop with one round. Most people are going to be lucky to make even a single hit.
 

rickyrick

New member
I am no advocating a person not to ARM themselves, but racking s gun to scare someone that already has the upper hand does sound foolish. It's an opportunity for a missfeed.

I do advocate the use of dogs as a primary "scare the bad guy off" method. With dogs you have minutes to prepare, not seconds. You may never have to use the guns.

With the right dogs your house will be passed by in most cases. You need at least two, one dominant and one submissive.
 

KaibabMD

New member
Every soldier or Marine I trained with over the years has been worried about the lethality of a 5.56 mm. Most prefer a .308 if they can get it.
 

briandg

New member
Most combat professionals WOULD choose a 7.62 over a 5.56. That doesn't make the 5.56 inadequate.

A 5.56 may in some circumstances not provide an effective wound, when in the same circumstances, the 7.62 would do better. It is, again, totally logical to choose the better weapon.

Having combat professionals express doubts about one cartridge and preferring another doesn't mean that the 5.56 is inadequate or ineffective. The history of it speaks for itself. it is dangerous. far more dangerous than most pistol rounds, and probably more dangerous than any combat round until the 7 mm mauser and 30-06 came around.

I've heard that the 30-40 krag did nothing but tickle.
 
I hate do defend the practice of attempting to scare off bad guys with either the presentation of a gun or the sound of it being operated, but

WHY NOT?

The sound of a shotgun may result in a violent response.

I'm not certain that I understand your point. My post said that if the sound doesn't work, you automatically go to the next level, that may lead to a shooting.

Okay, bad guy is in your house. He is armed and paranoid. You decide to scare him off by racking your shotgun. Your intent is that he will be scared off by the awesome sound that obviously indicates superior firepower. Instead, the bad guy just unloads his pistol in the direction of the racking shotgun. That is an example of the violent type of response that can result. By racking the shotgun, you have given up the opportunity of surprise and have given the bad guy insight into where you are located.

The sound of a racking shotgun is scary, no doubt, assuming that he hears it correctly. Of course, having the lights turned on is also very scary to many individuals as well. So you are absolutely right in that it can be very effective, but reliance on the effectiveness is what is naive. And sure, you can up the stakes by firing the shotgun if you think that is necessary, but it may be that you are not the first to fire in the fight if he opts to shoot at the sound of the gun. Maybe he misses with all his ammo. Maybe he gets lucky and hits you. Maybe you and he get unlucky and he hits one of your family.

If there is going to be shooting inside of your home, would you prefer that you do it knowing where things and people are and not shooting until you see your intruder or would you rather your intruder open up without concern?
 

lawnboy

New member
Some quick, back of the cocktail napkin ideas.....

You cannot view a round as just a round. Rounds are fired by weapons wielded by people. There is a reason why rounds, and the weapons that fire them, are adopted and shelved. Whether these reasons matter to you is up to you.

If you look at charts you'll find that 5.56, .308 and 30-06 (when zeroed for 200) are within the diameter of a 30 caliber round of each other trajectory wise out to 250 yards or so. A bit past 250 the 5.56 starts drooping. The other two hold up better at longer range in common bullet weights and loads. You can go to any ammo manufacturers website and see this for yourself. I just refreshed my memory using the remington site and data for 55gr 5.56 Remington Express and 165gr .308 and 30-06 Remington Express. Given this data I'd say that the trajectory of the rounds is about the same for standard range but the .30's are better at long range. All blow away the .22lr at any range.

The energy brought on target is from 3 to 4 times as much with either of the .30 cal rounds compared to the 5.56 at 250 yds. At "spitting distance" ranges likely to be encountered in a home defense situation the energy on target is still twice as much with the .30's. The 30 cal rounds hit harder. The .22lr is not in the discussion.

5.56 is physically smaller and thus lighter. You can carry more rounds per pound of 5.56 than you can either .30 cal round. You can carry more still of .22lr

5.56 give less recoil than either .30cal round. For me, this makes the weapons that fire it more fun to shoot and more manageable. I notice no felt recoil difference between an AR style rifle and a Marlin or Ruger .22lr semi auto. I'm sure that actual calculations would show that the 5.56 AR kicks more, but its so light I can't tell. This light kick makes it possible to make lighter, more manageable weapons in 5.56 than in .30cal rounds.

The US military decided that ammo carrying capacity, lightness and manageability were more important than hitting power and long range trajectory. Russia seems to have followed suit with the 5.45 and I'm told China is too. No one is choosing .22lr.

You may have different criteria than the US military when you choose a defensive round and rifle. I do not see how anyone could choose .22lr for this role. I CAN see how 5.56, .308 (7.62NAT0) or 30-06 could be chosen. I'm sure there are others equally adequate and worthy of consideration.
 

briandg

New member
Okay, bad guy is in your house. He is armed and paranoid. You decide to scare him off by racking your shotgun. Your intent is that he will be scared off by the awesome sound that obviously indicates superior firepower. Instead, the bad guy just unloads his pistol in the direction of the racking shotgun. That is an example of the violent type of response that can result. By racking the shotgun, you have given up the opportunity of surprise and have given the bad guy insight into where you are located.

You're making a whole lot of big, general assumptions.
assume that he is armed, paranoid, ready to unload his firearm into the dark just because he heard something, assuming that it is dark, assuming this and that?

You seem to also be clearly saying that a person in a defensive situation should sit quietly as a mouse, retaining the element of surprise, rather than trying the alternative of maybe even shouting "get out, or I'll rack my shotgun at you!"

I don't suggest it as a tactic, but it should be obvious to everyone that in at least SOME cases, just the sound of a weapon cocking will cause some unarmed and even armed criminals to flee instead of fight. a little old lady with a .25 auto scared off a couple of teenagers here recently.

It's equally obvious that at least a few of the crazier tweakers out there will decide that hearing a shotgun at the end of the hall would be a good reason to mow down as much of the house as possible, rather than risk taking a round from that shotgun.

In some cases it WILL work, just read the police reports. Sticking a laser dot on an opponent sometimes works. Sometimes a toy poodle will drive off an armed intruder. Lots of things work, it all depends on your opponent.

In some cases it won't work. it will, in some cases, cause escalation in conflict; so will inviting the guy in for a cup of tea. maybe he hates tea.

without statistics, arguing that one scenario is more likely than the other, or that one is more likely to get you killed, is ridiculous.

If the guy wants to rack his shotgun and hope for the best, that is probably safer than asking him in for tea.

I see little to gain, or lose, in a general, unknown situation.

My personal actions will probably run along the lines of telling them leave or die and that 911 has been alerted, and then, doing whatever I have to to make them less of a threat. Unless the invader is simply an assassin, or very determined to take whatever I have at any cost, they will MOST LIKELY leave, rather than take the chances of being shot. I will give them the option to survive, and the option of not spending prison time if they kill me.

any home invasion scenario is flying without a manual.

Of course, in many states and circumstances, the answer is obvious. He has invaded your home. You fear for your life. Kill him and get it over with. That's why we have castle doctrine. No need for a warning.
 

Father Time

New member
assume that he is armed

Well if someone breaks into my house this is the one thing I'm going to assume.


You seem to also be clearly saying that a person in a defensive situation should sit quietly as a mouse, retaining the element of surprise

Thats what I would do. Making noise gives away the one advantage you would have in a break in.

Maybe they came to rip off your flatscreen? Maybe they came for you!
Frankly, they can have my TV I've got insurance. But if they want more than my possesions then thats where my .357 comes into play.;)
 
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