Concerned about lethality of .223/5.56

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Crow Hunter

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I went out to lunch with a friend of mine on Friday last week. He told me that his 6 year old son wanted to go deer hunting. None of his rifles would fit a 6 year old except his M4gery. Everything else was too long or kicked too hard for his son. He isn't the tacticool type by the way. So he mounted an optic on it and let his son practice with it until he could make a good shot.

This fall his son took a 130 lb doe with one shot (his 1st shot at a living deer) at about 65 yards from a ground blind. The doe ran about 35 yards after the shot and went down.

Mindset - His son wanted to take that deer and was confident in his ability to take the doe.

Tactics - The used a ground blind where their shots were within 100 yards and the father made sure his son only took shots he knew he could make.

Skill - The father had the son practice at least 50 rounds every weekend for a month before the day they went. Even on the days they didn't see a deer, they went home and shot a few more rounds. The son knew where to shoot and how to shoot.

Gear - Decent quality 55gr soft point with a 3X9 optic on a run of the mill M4gery.

If you aren't confident with a .223 and your ability to use it, you won't be effective in a fight. Use something you are confident in and adapt your tactics to fit and practice enough that you can make the shots you need to make with the gear you are using.

Personally, if I had the choice (and unlimited funds), for home defense, I would choose the MP-5 SD with a fixed stock. :eek::)

I can dump 32 rounds full auto into a chest size target at 15 yards. With 147gr subsonics on steel it sounds like a old fashsioned mechanical alarm clock going off.:cool::D

I just wish I could afford to have one for myself....
 
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Big Shrek

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I got to hand it to you, Big Shrek, you have suggested Calico guns as being the answer to various problems in 17 different threads, often with pics.

Is there anything the Calico can't do?
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Yep...there is ONE thing...they can't be lightweight...LOL

Ya gotta be a Nosetackle or pro wrestler or bodybuilder to hold up the 9mm versions long enuff to empty the mag ;)
Liberty III pistol weighs 5.8 pounds loaded with the 100-rd mag...hold that at arms-length for awhile...or even more fun, hold TWO!! hehehe
Most folks can't hold a broom at length for 5 minutes...

Thank God I'm a cornfed Tennessee Country boy who is about the size of a Sasquatch...but with less hair :D
 
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Ignition Override

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Guys who plan to break into a house in order to steal, almost always wait until the owner is gone.
A large amount of these break-ins are about 10:00, just after people are seen leaving for work or school.

Criminals seldom display their intentions from any distance, based on police comments and experience.

With the rule of law (Nothing remotely similar to "The Road Warrior" anarchy, or the dozens of spin-off movies), wouldn't it be very hard to convince a jury that a shooting from 50 feet or 50 yards was in self-defense?
No thug will advertise/"telegraph" his intentions with a weapon in his hand from more than about twenty feet, will he?
 
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Xfire68

New member
Save the .22's for squirrels and use the 5.56 on the bad guys. If your SHTF scenario ever happens your going to need to eat and the .22 will come in handy for small game. ;)
 
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Skavatar

New member
shot placement, whether you're using a rifle or hangun or shotgun, make the 1st shot count.

a .22lr straight through an eye and into the brain is better than a missed shot with a .50 BMG
 
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Darren007

New member
a guy was talking about how ineffective 5.56 was and has been on adversaries in Somalia and Afghanistan
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For every article or online post I read about the "ineffectiveness" of the 5.56mm, I have heard, directly, from an equal number of soldiers who've served in Iraq or Afghanistan about how effective it was.
 
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tirod

Moderator
my whole "coming chaos" strategy is extremely flawed.If I'm going to have to hit someone rushing my home multiple times
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Ok. I agree.

Let's examine that - what are you doing that will attract that kind of attention? What is prominently displayed, or obvious, that the neighbor zombies will want to get in and take? Why do they think you'll be an easy target?

You are exhibiting something valuable they want, and they think you will be an easy pushover. Why else bother? Predators go for the easy kill, and bypass the obviously tougher, less desireable ones. Coyotes hunt rabbits, not wolverines.

It's an obvious statement expressing fear that others could be more powerful and take away your possessions. Since this is just a shill game and we are really talking about the end of your neighborhood as you know it, consider exactly what could actually cause it. Ice storm? Tornado? Hurricane? Collapse of local government, or even National?

Given the odds it's a local weather catastrophe, you actually have two options, the bug out bag with essential elements because there is no home, or simple loss of utilities. In that case, propane powered camping gear is the better answer than agonizing over which cartridge. ANY will do in either case.

If you have to leave, you're better off with a 9mm Glock with CCW - not some tactical dodad rifle on your back ready to target you and yours at the first LE/MIL checkpoint rounding up stragglers to intern in a "rescue camp."

If you stay home and keep quiet, organizing and supporting your neighbors, helping them out, you defuse them and their problems as a helpful asset.

This is why "What cartridge?" is internet BS. Fix the real problems and just use whatever you like. During the Obamascare, most military ammo couldn't be had, but .30-06, .30-30, 12 ga, and a lot of others stayed on the shelf.

If ammo is a major problem, buy a pallet or two. Reload. Do something about it. Then if the first hit is ineffective, you don't worry about it. Just shoot again. It's what we all do hunting, or in combat.

Just be prepared for the actual results - humans have been shot multiple times with .50BMG and were still effectively fighting back at the end of the operation, even directing consolidation of the target. And, others have been dropped with a BB.

The answer is somewhere in between, and won't make any difference without practice, practice, practice.
 
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Lzwo

New member
+1 Tirod

This is why "What cartridge?" is internet BS. Fix the real problems and just use whatever you like. During the Obamascare, most military ammo couldn't be had, but .30-06, .30-30, 12 ga, and a lot of others stayed on the shelf.
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They may get our mil-style/high cap/semi auto rifles. May get our pistols. But I can't see any way, any how, any time, the gun controllers will ever, ever outlaw our hunting rifles and shotguns. If the time comes that they do, it won't be this country as we know it we are living in.

But, back to the original post. .223 is going to do the job. If you're looking to fend off someone wearing body armor, or someone with the determination to keep going after taking hits center mass, you’re in a different place than any I can reasonably foresee.

Have you thought about some improvised claymore-type munitions around your perimeter? Seems like that may be reasonable.....
 
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droptrd

New member
I personally wouldnt trust my home security to the unreliable 22LR. If the gun doesnt go bang when you pull the trigger, the bad guy isnt going to stop.
If you are worried about multiple shots, why not go with a shotgun?

My first choice is a shotgun.

A shot with a 3" high brass OO to the chest at 7-10 yards....Chuck Norris couldnt get up from that.
 
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kraigwy

New member
Was watching a show several days ago on the Military channel where a guy was talking about how ineffective 5.56
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I'm glad they didn't have the Military Channel and the Internet in '67. I would have been scared to death going to war with the 5.56.

Glad someone forgot to tell the NVA that the 5.56 was harmless.
 
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Havamal

New member
I'll stockpile "308s" and keep practicing so I can place multiple hits, under time pressure. I'm not interested in lethality, in killing, but in stopping their arm assaults as quickly as possible when without a squad of riflemen to back me up: Likely I'd be alone, defending my good wife. Besides, I'll assume intruders might be wearing body armor. By being also able to hunt big game with my 308 rifle, I get more skilled in its uses. 308s might give one a slight edge, provided that one can shoot it as accurately as needed.

22LRs are good for training and adequate for killing very small game, for food. results on man sized intruders with 12g shotguns aimed at you may take more time to put down than wished for.

223s seem fine for under 300 yards (and better for over 30 yards) as long as you can keep your M4 very clean. Heard it's easier to be accurate with 223s then 308s/30-06s, especially for females and for city people somewhat new to rifle shooting.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/08/the_last_big_lie_of_vietnam_ki.html
 
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Tim R

New member
I know better but here goes.

1. Police Officers are not trained to kill the bad guy. They are trained to stop the threat. Now if the bad guy happens to be killed when stopping him, oh well.

2. If you can't hit the bad guy with your rifle and mag with 30 rounds, well maybe you need to move so you can get hits. Its not the fault of 556 you can’t shoot worth beans.

3. I think everyone has figured out one rifle won't fit every situation. I have more than one hunting rifle. I won’t use my 300 H&H on a bunny rabbit and won’t use a 22 on a moose. It’s the same with the military, they found there needs to be more than a M-16 in everyone’s hands. The US has used the M-16 for what almost 50 years now? If 556 was that bad it would have been changed. If it was that bad, the Russians would not have come out with their version of the 556.
 
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TimW77

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"If it was that bad, the Russians would not have come out with their version of the 556."

And the Chinese are making the same mistake as the Russians, the US and NATO with their own "version" of the 5.56.

Funny how the only ones that are unhappy with the 5.56 are those on the internet with no REAL experience!

T.
 
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Te Anau

New member
My two favorite tidbits of advice so far.

"Preparing for "coming chaos" is a multi-tiered process. When it comes to firearms you want a Handgun (portable defense, 9mm to save money on ammo), 12ga Shotgun (bird hunting), .223+ Rifle (medium game), and a .22lr rifle (small game). Of course all these double as defensive firearms as well, with the rifle being preferred for that purpose much of the time. So of course you want to stock up on .22lr, but you also want .223, 9mm, a bunch of bird shot, and a little slug and buckshot. Also, if you ever do run out of .223 the .22lr can work even for deer with good shot placement, so you are still okay for the long term with that.
So you are right and wrong. Stock up on a good, but not excessive, amount of .223, but also get 10 times as much .22lr as well."

&

"As far as a .22 rimfire, I figure that improving sinus drainage or doing cataract surgery with one would tend to create an attitude adjustment on the part of a Bad Guy. Wouldn't be my first choice, of course, but better than a loud scream, for sure."

Thanks for the input. :)
 
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Nitesites

New member
I like seeing new larger calibers utilizing the 5.56 parent case (variety is nice), but I have absolutely no concerns regarding the round's lethality on the 2-legged varmint we all endearingly call the "BG" aka, "The Bad Guy". It seems plenty lethal. And considering the newer bullet designs, it is only getting better.
 
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kraigwy

New member
If any of you have ARs or other 223s and have the twist (1:8 or 1:7) and haven't tried the 77 SMKs, you should give them a shot.

Not to mention the extended range.

They are extremely accurate and deadly on coyotes.

The 223 isn't legal for big game hunting is in Wyoming so I don't know about deer and such animals.
 
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Te Anau

New member
Love the Texas small arms research link.
From it.
"Failure of M855 to yaw or fragment within tissue results in relatively insignificant wounds, similar to those produced by .22 long rifle bullets."
:D
 
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