CNBC to claim Remington has been selling defective weapons for many many years

[Aguila Blanca]

On rare occasions, 1911 pistols have been known to exhibit similar behavior. Nobody has claimed that the design of the pistol is defective -- it is universally (or so it seems) understood and accepted that when it happens, the pistol is out of spec and should be repaired.

 

[woodguru]

This probably isn't the same thing as sudden acceleration in cars, but once one problem is proved or used as the basis for a lawsuit it gets hard to weed the chaff from the truth.

I would like to see statistics on what manufacturers are fielding the exact same "gun went off without touching the trigger" lawsuits, you can be assured that they exist.

That said I do recall shooting a friend's model 700 .243 when he first got it and having him say it went off when he released the safety. Years later he said that that had never happened again but he stayed leery of it.

First of all I can't imagine any incident of accidental unintended discharge being fatal because the gun should never be pointed at another person. The only exceptions would be where it has gone through walls or other similar exceptions where otherwise safe handling was being observed.

NBC has done some excellent investigative reporting in the past, and each incident has to be watched and judged by that situation itself. Anyone who can blow off that anything NBC is garbage undoubtedly thinks all good information comes from FOX. Your opinions are pretty much worthless as there is a bit too much belief orientation involved.

NBC seemed to be the first good reporting to debunk the whole sudden acceleration thing. While Nader had killed Audi by presenting the Audi 5000 (older people bought them) as a runaway acceleration killer it was NBC that found out that there were tens of thousands of cases of it in the courts against Cadillac, Buick, and Oldsmobile (older people's choice of cars).

In the case of runaway accleration in that hard throttle era it simply did not exist, it was mainly older people thinking their foot was on the brake when it was in fact on the throttle. If your brain thinks it's on the brake you are going to try to press the pedal to the floor to make it work. NBC proved that if your foot is in fact on the brake that anyone could stop a car under full acceleration, ie: the brake will overcome the motor.

Meanwhile GM was dealing with over 50,000 lawsuits from every dingbat that erroneously had their foot on the accelerator instead of the brake. It destroyed Audi's position in the US at that time costing them hundreds of millions in yearly sales.

Remington may have a problem as it seems there has been an awareness of the safety problem for decades.

What I don't understand is that the auto industry was forced to implement transmissions that can't be put into gear to make drivers have their foot on the brake. Why would Remington not completely revamp their trigger safety system to where this is not a problem, that would be far cheaper than to incur a myriad of lawsuits from a supposedly known and proven fault.

A safety to trigger linked fault is mechanical, how hard can it be to identify and fix the fault? What changes has or will Remington make if you complain about it? Change = known and identified fault. Mainly do the rifles come out of the factory 100% reliable and can the problem be attributed to customer derived trigger work/modifications. There are any number of firearms that can be rendered dangerous if poor trigger work is done.

How many Remingtons do you think get worked over for a better trigger pull? My guess is that it is a huge percentage. Of that number of worked over triggers how many are done poorly? Sear and trigger mechanisms are for people that know what they are doing, but that doesn't stop many from going where they shouldn't.

So then you have certain numbers of guys who don't know what they are doing going into their triggers, how many of them are the cavalier type who also practice poor gun safety handling? My guess it's a large group of bozos we are talking about.

 

[jmr40]

Most of the accidents are happening when shooters attempt to unload the rifles. On older rifles the safety had to be placed in the "FIRE" position before the bolt could be opened.

Remington acknowledged there was a problem when they changed the safety to allow the bolt to be opened with the gun still in the "SAFE" position. They have strongly been urging shooters to send in their older guns to be modified as well.

Not bashing Remington. I prefer Winchester, but have 2 Remington's and don't plan on selling them nor do I plan on not using them. I do think it is good to be aware of potential problems and to be extra careful.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Apparently, the show coincides with yet another lawsuit against Remington concerning the Model 700.
http://www.newsinferno.com/defectiv...0-rifle-lawsuit-claims-defect-caused-misfire/

Given that Remington has paid out over $20 million over the years, I hardly see this as a non-issue or one where the shooters are all at fault for the problem.

This has been an ongoing problem with lawsuits, recalls, redesigning of the mechanisms, etc.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55298

http://www.hightowerlawoffice.com/pdf/Bledsoe-Award.pdf

I don't know about you guys, but I find it hard to believe the Remington, or any arms maker for that matter, would continue to produce a design that would fire on its own for over 60 years.

Where therein seems to be the focus of the show. Certainly Ford hasn't been the only company to fail to implement safety changes in products because they determined that implementing the changes were more costly than potential settlements. If there isn't a problem with the product, then why would Remington keep paying settlements?

Here is a brief review of the problem and note the article in the second link (from the review)
http://www.drinnonlaw.com/Texas-Defective-Remington700.php
http://www.drinnonlaw.com/docs/Business-Week-Article-Remington.pdf

Remington keeps publicly claiming the fault is with the users, not with the gun, but Remington keeps losing court cases and paying settlements out of court.

 

[JMP]

One of my shooting buddies decided to start hunting with me a couple years ago. He usually shoots trap or pistols and didn't own any hunting rifles. He asked my advice on what he should get and I let him try all my Savages in various shapes and sizes, then he tried my Dad's Winchesters in various shapes and sizes. I was trying not to influence his decision and let him decide for himself. At the time neither my Dad or me owned a Remington but both of us knew the 700 was a comparible rifle to what we had shown him, and told him what the little we knew about them. Acouple weeks later he shows up with a 770 and said the WalMart guy told him it was the same as a 700 but didn't cost as much.

I hated even looking at that gun but could never bad mouth it cause I was afraid of hurting his feelings. He'd usually only shoot it a few times a year so I really didn't see it that much - no big deal. Last Tuesday while we were hunting he asked me point blank if it was a good rifle. After a pause the best I could come up with was that it was 'OK' for what he got it for.

Later on that day we were getting out of my truck and the guns were in cases in the back seat. I got mine out and started to load it with the muzzle pointed down. He grabbed his and put the magazine in. I shut my door and was looking through binoculars towards where we were going to walk when I heard him shoot. I looked across the truck but didn't see him so I started to run around the truck when he stood up holding his head. The worst thoughts were racing through my mind and I was scared half to death.

He was actually holding his ear because the muzzle was actually inside of the truck and his head was right by the open door. Luckily nobody got hurt. He yelled at me that he had shot my truck but never pulled the trigger. He had one hand on the forend and the other closing the bolt. When he closed the bolt, the gun fired. Through the glovebox, through the firewall, a 2 inch hole through the downpipe of the exhaust, and stopped before it went through the other side of the downpipe.

One of the scariest events I've ever been involved in and maybe now he'll watch the muzzle a little closer, but I know from personal experience now that a Remington can fire without pulling the trigger.

[/IMG]
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk26/jmpadg/IMG_20101011_1325091.jpg

 

[abelacres]

Is this just a bolt action problem or do other models/actions have similar issues?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Is this just a bolt action problem or do other models/actions have similar issues?

Just bolt action, apparently those with the Walker fire control system.

 

[woodguru]

Lawsuits?

What I find really interesting about the general state of product liability versus lawsuits is that we have created a system where it costs a manufacturer more to acknowledge and admit to a fault than it costs them to fight it.

Yes it's expensive to pay out settlements, but it costs more for companies to admit to a problem and deal with class actions that include 90% bogus claims.

This causes many industries to find it advantageous to fight claims than admit and settle out to real damages as opposed to real losses.

Speaking of which JMP should send pictures to Remington and give them an itemized bill for the damages. Remington would be idiotic not to be willing to send a few thousand dollars for repairs as opposed to defending against a lawsuit. Their attorneys alone would charge them tens of thousands to unsuccessfully defend against a lawsuit.

 

[FrankenMauser]

My Winchester Model 25 has the same issue the Remington recalls address(ed). Pull the trigger while the safety is on, and it will fire when the safety is released.

It's not Winchester's fault. It was the 50+ years of idiots never cleaning the trigger group, or removing the cross-bolt for inspection.


I'm sure the show will make Remington look like the biggest, nastiest, demonic villain in the U.S.
"They're just trying to kill innocent people"....

I just wish more people would realize how ridiculous the network and program are. Propaganda....

 

[arcticap]

I just wish more people would realize how ridiculous the network and program are. Propaganda....

I don't think that anyone should condone protecting Remington for the sake of political correctness. It's not propaganda if it's the truth.
I'm just glad that my Remington 700 is a new model.
No one wants to see a slew of copy cat nuisance law suits filed, but if Remington is at fault then they should suffer the consequences of the justice system and pay the piper.
As consumers, we pay them to make safe, properly working guns and not unsafe, defective pieces of junk, no matter how small that percentage may be.
And since they've made some junk, then that will continually hurt the 2A by threatening our gun rights in the court of public opinion.
Since our gun rights are at stake due to Remington, then we should all come down on the side of justice.
The stakes are too high to just blow it off and sweep it under the rug.
After all, that's what Remington tried to do and now they've got some serious blood on their hands.
Kudos to NBC and truthful reporting, and for trying to protect the innocent and our 2A rights in the process.

 

[MTT TL]

Truth is any gun can malfunction under the right set of circumstances. I pulled two M9s out of the arms room that would cock and fire while on safe. True, they would not hit the firing pin, but still, this should not be possible. All guns are loaded. End of story.

 

[madmag]

Remington has extended the free safety modification offer once again, until the end of the year. It's on their web site.

I have been looking at the Remington Web site. I don't see anything except about the 710....not the 700. Just curious because I have a son that owns a 700 purchased about 2003.

 

[riggins_83]

http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/a/aacbsnewsrem700_2.htm

 

[gaseousclay]

I don't think that anyone should condone protecting Remington for the sake of political correctness. It's not propaganda if it's the truth.

agreed. i'd like to see the report myself and come to my own conclusion. what I don't get is the knee-jerk reactions i'm seeing around here - if there's a problem then it needs to be corrected.

 

[madmag]

I have been looking at the Remington Web site. I don't see anything except about the 710....not the 700. Just curious because I have a son that owns a 700 purchased about 2003.

I still have this question. I do not see the 700 listed on the Remington site for any re-calls related to trigger safety??

 

[jmr40]

It is not a recall. Remington just wants the safety converted so that the bolt can be opened while the gun is in the "SAFE" position like the newer guns. This will supposedly cut down on the number of accidents. I have never known of Remington doing it for free. Last I heard there was a small charge.

I have an older 1974 model 700 that has not been sent in for the conversion. I prefer the bolt stay locked down when walking through the woods. I fully understand that there is a greater risk with the Remingtons, but this rifle is semi-retired now anyway. When I do use it I use extra care.

 

[FrankenMauser]

I don't think that anyone should condone protecting Remington for the sake of political correctness. It's not propaganda if it's the truth.
I'm just glad that my Remington 700 is a new model.

I was not referring to the Remington "special" being propaganda. I was referring to CNBC's general approach to news: If it's not massively twisted to support their own views, it doesn't air. If it does air, it is filled with more assumptions and empty truths, than facts.

I suspect Remington was the target of this investigation, not because of a disproportionate number of "accidental" shootings (who points a loaded firearm at a person they don't intend to kill?), but because of their financial growth and profitability over the last 3 years. CNBC's bread and butter comes from financial news. They love making profitable companies look like evil corporations, hell-bent on destroying the country.

 

[madmag]

It is not a recall. Remington just wants the safety converted so that the bolt can be opened while the gun is in the "SAFE" position like the newer guns.

OK, I admit I am confused. Most of what we have been talking about is taking the safety off then having the rifle discharge without finger on trigger. I have been asking if this is a current re-call for the 700 models. The only thing I see on the Remington site is the 710. Yes, they are basically the same, but re-calls go by model.

Anyway, since my son owns a 700 I will advise him to call Remington directly.

 

[woodguru]

FrankenMauser

How can you tell if the information done by MSN is biased or good when you've already made up your mind that you are going to hear biased spins? That mindset where you have already decided renders you incapable of assimilating information good or bad.

All large corporations are not innocent of charges of malfeasance or negligent behavior, so how do you get the truth, from FOX?

 

[arcticap]

the network and program are. Propaganda....

I was not referring to the Remington "special" being propaganda. I was referring to CNBC's general approach to news: If it's not massively twisted to support their own views, it doesn't air. If it does air, it is filled with more assumptions and empty truths, than facts.

You did say that both "the network and program are. Propaganda...".
It now sounds like someone else besides NBC is doing some twisting.

And I thought that NBC just wanted to make people more aware of a widespread defect in an on going effort to try to save more lives.

Apparently, most 700 fire control systems were changed to a new design in 2007, but maybe not all.

http://www.drinnonlaw.com/Texas-Defective-Remington700.php