Carrying with an empty chamber

[Glenn E. Meyer]

This all speaks to getting quality training with your handgun so has to learn an appropriate draw stroke, having a quality set of equipment, etc.

Trusting a mechanical solution to avoid shooting yourself is not sufficient. It is the learning experience that counts.

The rash of Glock NDs in the Washington DC PD was analyzed as being due to inadequate training. Watching a beginner who bought a Serpa (as a magic talisman holster) trying to draw the gun is quite frightening.

 

[ShootistPRS]

Trusting a mechanical solution to avoid shooting yourself is not sufficient. It is the learning experience that counts.

^^^^^^ this!
The only safety that I trust is me. I carry a revolver as I have for 45+ years. I now own a CZ 75B and it goes into the holster with a round in the chamber and the hammer down. The DA pull is smooth and lighter than my revolver so it is no big deal to fire the first round DA. I don't use the thumb safety because it can't be engaged with the hammer down.
If you trust a safety more than you trust yourself then by all means use the safety. If you think multiple safeties make you safer then use them. Just remember that when it comes down to the end, you are the best safety that you have.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

There is quite the controversy among TDA and SF users. Which is actually safer is an interesting question as we need to sort out between newbies and those who train with each.

As pointed out by many, a person who doesn't practice and relies on the trigger pull alone may be surprised.

Research has shown that the common causes of an accidental trigger pull - stress, trips, sympathetic grip from the other hand, startles - will generate enough force to pull the standard TDA guns' triggers.

 

[Danoobie]

Well, I don't know where you guys live, but I'm
located at the dead center of Murphy's Law.
If it can go wrong, it will, and with a gun, that
means right in the middle a crowded room,
of the worst people known to man.

Belts break, holsters won't hold a shadow,
guns slip out, etc. And if I drop a buttered piece of bread,
500 times out of 500 it hits the floor butter down.

Now, as to CCW carry, it's good that everybody else thought
about carrying, and anticipated it and practiced at home, and all,
before they got their permit.

 

[TailGator]

Trusting a mechanical solution to avoid shooting yourself is not sufficient. It is the learning experience that counts.

A supporting anecdote: I am mentoring a close friend who is very bright - a concert pianist. He started out adamant that he wanted a thumb safety. By the time we had spent a few hours talking about safe handling, handling various pistols with snap caps, then going to the range, he changed his mind and decided to buy a Glock for his first pistol. Mind you, I did not argue against thumb safeties, just helped him understand how the guns worked, and asked him to think about how he would use a handgun in various situations, with the result that he decided for himself that, with practice, he would not need a thumb safety, and the consistent trigger pull might be an asset to the learning process.

 

[adamBomb]

For everyone who likes to carry their semi-auto chamber empty

The problem with this scenario is that it implies that carrying with an empty chamber is wrong. But it all depends. There are scenarios where carrying with a round in the chamber was the bad choice (ie bad guy uses your gun against you) or in the case of accidental discharge, and so on. Which is right? It unfortunately depends on the scenario you are up against. We are too quick to believe that accidental discharge cannot happen to us (as its happened to trained professionals) or that someone couldn't take a gun and use it against us (ie the idea that they can possibly get your gun before you can draw at 21ft in and if you fire past 21 ft it could be murder...not to mention an encounter might not happen from the front)

 

[45_auto]

The problem with this scenario is that it implies that carrying with an empty chamber is wrong. But it all depends.

Yep, just like carrying a gun. Much harder to have an ND or have it taken away from you if you don't have one in the first place.

 

[OldMarksman]

There are scenarios where carrying with a round in the chamber was the bad choice...

Might I respectfully suggest that you engage in some FoF exercises, using Simunitions, that reflect real world, out door civilian self defense scenarios in which the defender would have been lawfully justified in shooting.

Try two or three dozen variations, with and without an empty chamber..

See how well you do and get back to us.

The advantage of using the Simunitions is that you will still be around to reflect upon lessons learned.

 

[Tinbucket]

carrying with nempty chamber

Might as well just carry the ammo in your pocket.
I've thought about it ad it makes no sense to have an empty chamber/gun.
The heat of the moment is a real thing. An example a fine 8 point buck came running from a fight in the woods toward me. I kept pressing on the rear of the bolt shroud instead of rotating the safety on the Weatherby.
Someone is shooting at you or someone else or just raises their weapon, and is about to kill you...you don't want to forget that you have to rack the slide, do you....and you don't want to take the extra time and move the gun from going into firing position. Some may be able to rack the slide while raising the gun at arms length but not me.....ok maybe with a lot of practice...but I don't want to contend with it. My life or someone else's may be in the balance.
And at this point I'm considering my Colt Lawman snub nose.357 as primary gun. Our LEO has gone back to a Smith snub nose. One chamber don't fire the next one will with the next trigger pull.
Now who is making the eight shot revolver and in what barrel lengths??

 

[adamBomb]

I've thought about it ad it makes no sense to have an empty chamber/gun.

You mean its not making sense in the scenarios you have planned out in your head. Not all scenarios are going to go the way you believe they will...For example someone comes up to you from behind, trips/pushes you down, your gun falls and they grab it. You tell me how glad you would be that the gun won't fire when the bad guy has it? Unfortunately there is no perfect way to carry. Everything you do has disadvantages/advantages depending on the given scenario. What is right for scenario A is wrong for scenario B.

 

[OldMarksman]

Everything you do has disadvantages/advantages depending on the given scenario. What is right for scenario A is wrong for scenario B.

One more time: try a couple or three dozen realistic scenarios and see how you do.

 

[Don Fischer]

I'm an old guy. Carrying a gun with a round in the chamber is generally a no no for me. But the bulk of my handgun shooting is with DA handguns mty cylinder under the hammer. I have two cf hand guns, auto loader. My S&W Shield has a safety on it and I do carry it with a round in the chamber and the safety on. Cannot imagine actually needing it and having to get a round in an mt chamber. So I do carry it but with the safety on. The other is a P-89 Ruger, it's double action. I don't carry it a lot but when I do there a round in the chamber and it's de-cocked and then safety is off. The DA pull on it just about requires a come along to pull. I don't believe it is possible to accidentally fire the gun like that. I actually like that better than the Shield and would carry it most the time but it's to big and to heavy for me to pack around concealed all day. When I'm home I carry it a lot. I'm pretty sure a good gunsmith could smooth up it's DA pull and maybe someday I'll find out.

 

[JoeSixpack]

The problem with this scenario is that it implies that carrying with an empty chamber is wrong. But it all depends. There are scenarios where carrying with a round in the chamber was the bad choice (ie bad guy uses your gun against you) or in the case of accidental discharge, and so on. Which is right? It unfortunately depends on the scenario you are up against. We are too quick to believe that accidental discharge cannot happen to us (as its happened to trained professionals) or that someone couldn't take a gun and use it against us (ie the idea that they can possibly get your gun before you can draw at 21ft in and if you fire past 21 ft it could be murder...not to mention an encounter might not happen from the front)

Think of it like this, how many scenarios involve your guns being taken from you? I can think of only ONE since the fights probably over at that point if the BG has your gun, and even if it's not chambered will that save you?

How many other scenarios can you think of that does not end that way?
There is no question that a loaded chamber simplifies and decreases deployment time.

This is in every scenario, wouldn't you want that advantage in the 99 out of a 100 that's to your benefit?

To Put it to you another way how many people have been saved by seat belts in cars? How many have been saved because they was throw free of the car because they was not wearing a seat belt?

Im willing to bet more people survived with the seat belts.. Im also willing to bet some of those thrown free was killed into what ever they was throw TO.


As for unintentional discharges.. most of the time these comes down to negligence not a fault with the gun.
This is the cost of admission, you try to be safe and follow the rules but ultimately the risk is never 0%.

I will say this though with a half way decent holster, and a modern gun (anything built in about last 40 years) already has at least 1 type of rough handling safety built in, transfer bars, firing pin blocks, etc..

Even the cheap hi-points have counter weight's for drop protection and sear block on "safe".

These guns do not just go off on their own, baring some freak mechanical failure.

You mean its not making sense in the scenarios you have planned out in your head. Not all scenarios are going to go the way you believe they will...For example someone comes up to you from behind, trips/pushes you down, your gun falls and they grab it. You tell me how glad you would be that the gun won't fire when the bad guy has it? Unfortunately there is no perfect way to carry. Everything you do has disadvantages/advantages depending on the given scenario. What is right for scenario A is wrong for scenario B.

IF I was the BG in this scenario I can tell you what would happen.. I've already rolled it over in my head many times that If Im ever in immediate need of a semi auto that is in a unknown condition I will simply rack the slide when I pick it up.

I might waste 1 round but I know it's loaded.
I don't think your empty chamber will save you in this scenario.

I suppose my line of thinking here might open my self up for the scenario where the original owner is setting me up with a juryrigged gun that will explode when I pull the trigger or something so I guess it's not a 100% full proof plan.

 

[K_Mac]

adamBomb your argument just doesn't work. Having your gun taken away from you is far more likely if you have to load it first.

Retention of your handgun can be learned. Safe handling of your firearm to prevent negligent discharge can be learned. Maintaining situational awareness can be learned. The reason OldMarksman keeps recommending realistic training and scenarios is he knows you will fail most of the time if you have to chamber a round before engaging, regardless of how good you think you are at doing it.

Chambering a round successfully under stress is not sure thing. There are many things that have to be done quickly to survive an attack by a would be killer. What sense does it make to add loading your gun to the list?

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Coming into to this a bit late, so I'll just agree with Old M. that one needs to get off the Internet and actually train in FOF to appreciate the real world risks of unchambered carry rather than trying to be that guy on the Internet.

Second - the issue is sufficient training and quality equipment to keep your finger off the trigger. If you don't have that and are thus scared of your gun, then you might rethink carrying one. That's harsh but the way I see it. Learn to be safe with reasonable carry options.

Last, it was said:

The DA pull on it just about requires a come along to pull. I don't believe it is possible to accidentally fire the gun like that,

Folks try to substitute mechanics for training. It is true that very well trained people like TDA guns and manage the DA first pull well. They just like a tad more weight in case they do screw up and have the finger on the trigger. However, it is NOT true that is not possible to fire a DA pull by accident. Human factors research has shown that common ND causes like stress, slips, sympathetic hand contractions, startles and the like can generate enough force to pull a 14 lb DA trigger.

This is an old debate. Should I have a manual safety? Well, you don't on a revolver, so are you scared of a LCR or 642 in your pocket? I've seen very well trained folks forget the safety under stress or when shooting in a nonstandard position (if you don't do your standard draw, motor memory stinks, it seems).

I can see a TDA gun for its slightly increased safety as you can shoot the first shot decently. Carrying unchambered is flat out stupid. Besides Old M. FOF scenarios - I suggest an injured shooter class to see how good you are with an unchambered gun and only one hand. I've done it and it ain't easy. Note, you may only have one hand as you are carrying your kid, or holding her hand and she clings to you. I saw a DQ where a shooter threw the carried 'baby' away to get a two handed grip. In fact, Tom Given's had a picture of me on his newsletter running a save the baby drill. Baby in one arm, Glock 19 in the other. Now that would have been hard, starting unchambered.

 

[2123]

Carrying a handgun with one in the chamber and knowing what weapon retention is and what it's all about, is imperative.

I see one after another open carrying in public and they don't display anything that even comes close to weapon retention.

They are in affect, clueless.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

You mean its not making sense in the scenarios you have planned out in your head. Not all scenarios are going to go the way you believe they will...For example someone comes up to you from behind, trips/pushes you down, your gun falls and they grab it.

Why am I not carrying the gun in a quality holster that retains it? I can hang upside down and my pistol won't fall out of my Milt Sparks holster. Keeping your pistol on your body is pretty much a key function of a holster.

 

[random guy]

My own concern is with SOME guns. Specifically single action pistols with 4-5 lb triggers and no safety. We seem to hold that being striker fired makes this OK. I had my factory Colt 1911 out last night for the first time in a while. It has a heavier trigger pull than many striker fired single actions. In effect, some are carrying this gun, with a bit lighter trigger and no safety. The only difference is a virtually weightless takeup stage before hitting sear break. To me, this marks a major shift in gun handling doctrine. Could we at least acknowledge that?

Yes, perfect trigger discipline will eliminate most NDs even with a cocked and UNlocked single action. I'm not counting on perfection. I am perfectly fine with others doing so though as long as they take full responsibility for any NDs which result.

 

[Phoenix54c]

If the point of carrying is to retain ready access to a defensive weapon, I'd say carrying with a round in the chamber makes sense.

At the same time, my choice of carry has an internal firing pin blocker, a big manual safety (big and tactile enough to find under duress) and is a SA/DA with a heavy first pull which. Combined, these nearly eliminate chance of accidental discharge.

I wouldn't really feel comfortable walking around with a round chambered in a gun that doesn't have both an internal and manual safety. I feel like, over the course of years, I'd be more likely to accidentally shoot myself or someone else.

 

[zincwarrior]

So, what changed in your guns' mechanical design between the time you trusted them to have a round in the chamber and the time you did not?

I can answer that. I carried cocked and locked (1911) but on an empty chamber for two weeks. After two weeks the safety had come off a few times but it had not "fired." So I felt comfortable enough to put one in the pipe.