Calling Upon LR shooters, Bart B KraigWY ect.

[HKFan9]

Hopefully Bart and Kraig see this, as well as others experienced in LR shooting.

I am looking to get back into it after sometime away from it. I am no expert. You give me a handgun and a AR in 3gun style competitions I will go hog wild, but I am looking to get back into long range shooting. I am an experienced rifleman, won a couple matches in my days even back to when I was a kid, but nothing truely long range.

I am looking to get fully set up this winter for Spring and Summer shooting, as I will have access to two private ranges for 1000 and out to 1300 yard shooting. (I might not shoot THAT FAR yet, but we get the picture.)

My rifle is under operation right now getting some work done to it so I am looking to piece together other essentials.

My rig is as follows.

Kimber 8400 Advanced Tactical .308.
20 MOA rail
Vortex Branded Badger Ord. percision matched rings.
Vortex Razor HD 5-20x50 scope with MRAD reticle and 5MRAD per rotation turrets. (First time using MRAD)
Atlas Bipod (will probably use bags / rest however)

Ammo (for now) I will be shooting Federal Premier 175 SMK's as the gun is garunteed with both those and the 168's but I figure the 175 has the better BC.

Now before you think I am nuts for being a novice and dropping this much coin, I work in the industry, and I can't give out details on prices.. but lets just say it wasn't retail pricing.

Originally I had one of our gunsmiths check over the rifle, mount, torque and level everything properly and I test fired the rifle with 2 boxes of ammo and will hold sub MOA at 100 and 200 yards when I do my part.

Right now the stock is off being inletted for bottom metal that takes AICS mags (the one thing Kimber forgot to do).

My main questions are... as follows.

I would like a ballistic calculater similar to what the military is currently fielding.. or a qualty "app" for my Iphone or Ipad. I am not an expert, nor a math wiz by any means, so I would like to be able to input all my variables, and my load, and know approximately my elevational dials. I fully expect it to not be "perfect" but least close enough I can walk it in and learn the ropes.

My other question is if I am forgetting or missing anything that will help me on my way. I am looking to pick up stuff now so in 6 months when its warmer I can get started. Kind of leaving it open ended because I know Bart B. and KraigWY among other veteran shooters I am sure will be able to give addvice.

I appreciate any and all feedback. I don't want it to turn into a brand discussion, this is the rifle and optic I chose, I am personally happy with them, and I would also like to point out I am not interested in winning any competitions... just basic stuff like hitting a man or animal sized target at range.

Thank you all.

 

[taylorce1]

There is an app for Apple called Ballistic it'll have the info you need. It has JBM and On Target which will give you your dope for your load and allow you to take pictures of your targets and measure groups with your phone. There is as well a "Mil Dot master" slide rule that you can buy for about $20 that will help you as well with ranging targets with your scope since your using a Mil Rad scope.

Add a chronograph to your tool box. They aren't terribly expensive and it'll help you to know exactly what your bullet speed is. This will help the dope the app gives you to be more accurate.

Since your using a Mil Rad scope start thinking of your misses in Mils. Hopefully you can see impacts in the scope after the shot then you'll be able to judge your misses using your hash marks in your scope. If you try to think in inches or feet then it becomes a PITA to do the conversion in your head for quick adjustments.

 

[HKFan9]

I appreciate the feed back and the suggestions. I am trying to stay with Mrad as much as possible to keep my mind wrapped around it. I have another Vortex Razor 1-6 on the way for my AR also with Mrad.

Just testing the rifle with the .308 loads I had laying around, I know with my zero stop set at 100 yards, I need to hold or dial .6 MRAD in elevation to be dead on at 200 yards.

Any cheap but decent chronos you'd recommend? Also would you recommend an Anemometer to measure windspeeds at muzzle and at target. I know you can get varrying cross winds and everyone says that is the most difficult part.

Ideally once I set out on my path I will be keeping a shooters log book and charting my dopes on a cheat sheet for every 100 yards like I often see laminated to stocks and scope cap covers. This should help me after using my reticle to range my target. Ideally I'd like to eventually do some distance varmint hunting.

 

[tobnpr]

"Shooter" is a very popular app for Android devices, more detailed than Strelok (free), but Strelok can also get the job done. While you can run dope and print out the tables to bring with, I wouldn't be caught without having it on my phone to be able to make changes for weather conditions.

Your setup is more than capable, but 1000 is really stretching the limits of the 175 SMK. It will be supersonic at 1000 leaving at 2600- but barely. 1300 is out of practical reach for that bullet. My son shoots the same bullet at 1000 from his AR-10, capable but with more drop and drift than the 7-08 and .260 we also shoot.

The best suggestion I think I would put on the table is that you've GOT to start handloading, because 1000 yard shooting is all about wind calls, and wind calls are ALL about round count and practice. Sending four or five boxes of FGMM downrange every range trip will get very expensive, I suspect even at wholesale prices but you know the deal on that better than I.

Also, while FGMM is very good ammo- you do not have the ability to find out if your rifle can do better. No ability to experiment with bullet jump or velocities to find your barrel's harmonic "sweet spot". Sub-moa is good, but 1/2 minute is better than 3/4 which is better than 1...

Good luck with your soon to be new addicition. I'm happy that the 3-1/2 hour round trip to the 1000 yard range prevents us from going more than once a month- I'd be broke...

 

[Jimro]

I'm assuming that you plan on "unknown target size, unknown distance" type shooting. If you are not, please ignore most of the following:

Get a Laser Range Finder. They are more accurate than the mildot relation estimation method. A Bushnell Elite 1500 is the bottom end that I recommend for long range shooting.

Get or make a data book. There are commercial products. There are digital products you can print off. But get one, and don't fire a shot without it! Record everything! This will give you your altitude/pressure corrections later on, and will come in handy when you are struggling to master reading the wind.

A handheld wind meter. Kestral is the market leader here, but Caldwell makes some, and other options are available.

A solar calculator. If your laser range finder breaks down and you need to estimate range using mils. Also useful for calculating come ups for a range not on your ballistics table (which you will have printed out and put in your data book).

A tape measure, small.

A scope bubble level to help you avoid cant.

A cosine indication system. This can be a gadget you attach to your rifle, or a cheap kids compass with a weighted string attached, this is important when shooting up or down hill.

A spotting scope. Celestron makes good ones without ranging reticles for not too much money. Leupold and Kruger Optical make ranging reticle spotting scopes.

Get a shooting mat. It isn't necessary, but it helps keep the ticks off your belly.

Hope this helps.

Jimro

 

[taylorce1]

I use a Pro Chrono chronograph, it cost about $100 and is simple to use.

Wind meters can be useful but are worthless for telling you the wind at 1000+ yards. They only tell you the conditions near your rifle. For around $20 for a simple one I don't see the harm in using one, but simple wind flags down range will tell you a lot more if you learn to read them. So if you're shooting at a range it should be easy to set up some streamer wind flags.

You're going to be shooting as well at a range, so I'm sure the targets are known distances. I wouldn't worry about learning to use your MRAD for ranging or buying a laser range finder. I'd worry about hitting those targets a high percentage of the time before I concentrated on range estimation with a reticle. Rangefinders are great and all but most will not range anything unless it is reflective beyond 800 yards. Since you're using public or private ranges that'll have targets at set distances then why bother with a range finder. Again it's a good tool to have in you box again but why bother until your ready to move off your established shooting ranges not a necessary one.

Bubble level is a great tool and not too expensive to add. However look at the ranges you are going to be shooting on, if there isn't a lot of elevation change I don't think a cosine indicator is a right now purchase either. I think right now you have pretty much all you need to reach 1000 yards, but some of the things suggested will get you on target faster.

 

[kraigwy]

Look at the 178 A-Max bullets. Not saying its better the Sierra, but your gun may or may not say so. At least try it, (and other bullets) and see what your gun likes. Also look at the Berger 30 cal bullets.

Give your gun a choice.

Two programs I like on my I-phone are Ballistic and Shooter. I like shooter better but Ballistic has a range finder app. You slide the top to set the target size and slide the left to match how the target fits in you mil dot scope, and you get the range to the target.

Both programs are relatively cheap from the Apple Store.

Both allow you to put in environmental conditions.

Ballistic programs are like anything else, you get out of them what you put in, meaning garbage in, garbage out.

They have nice programs out there where you can imput wind, but nothing and I mean nothing teaches you to shoot in wind like shooting in wind.

Wind meters tell you how fast the wind is at the wind meter. It may or may not be the same over the path of the bullet. 308s have a about 48 MOA trajectory (depending on the load and such). Wind meters measure wind at the height of the wind meter not 35 or so feet in the air.

Learn to read mirage. I think mirage gives you a better idea of what the wind is doing down range. Focus the scope to read mirage 1/2 - 2/3s distance to the target.

Its my opinion that one would be better off, instead of spending money on high price shooting computers and such, spend the money on rounds down range.

Shooting conditions: We all like nice weather. We all like shooting in no wind conditions (which I don't believe exist). But what we can't control is the weather the day of the match.

You'll get more out of shooting on windy, cold or hot, rainy or snowy days then shooting is perfect conditions. Because its more then likely going to be windy, rain or snow on the day of the match.

Concentrate on fundamentals rather then gimmicks. Its about soft ware (fundamentals) more then hardware. Computers, wind machine's etc.

Nothing wrong with having a simple wind meter. It and a spotting scope are valuable tools. Take you scope and wind meter to the field. Check the scope for mirage, then read the wind meter, compare the two.

Carry your wind meter with you on your daily walks, Look at the trees, grass, smoke, flags, etc and estimate the wind, then use the wind meter to check you estimates.

Kestral (and others) may inexpensive wind meters and they make expensive weather machines. The cheap ones give you wind and temps. That's really all you need. Spend the additional moneys on ammo. Find a good spotting scope that reads mirage.

When I bought my last spotting scope, I picked a cool day where there shouldn't have been any mirage. I went to Scheeles and Cabelas and got the sales clerk to take some out side, I picked the one that showed the most mirage. It wasn't the most expensive, but it showed the mirage the best.

I cannot stress the importance of spending your efforts on fundamentals and rounds down range. And learn to use a M1917 style sling. Learn to shoot without bipods, sandbags and benches.

Again there are tons of 308 bullets out there. Bullets are like women. They arnt all the same, and we all don't agree who has the best women. Same with bullets, my gun may like Brand X, you're may like Brand Y. Try as many as you can. Like women, you spend a lot of money on your gun, feed them the diet they like and they will make you happy.

 

[kraigwy]

PS:

There is nothing wrong with Mrads, Most Mil scopes have .1 mil clicks, most MOA scopes have 1/4 clicks.

Its not hard to remember that one click is .36 inches instead of .25 inches. I've shoot a lot of matches with a M1A using 1/2 moa clicks. I got by. I now shoot mostly vintage military rifles, 1 MOA. (except my vintage sniper rifle, its 1/2 MOA).

 

[tobnpr]

And learn to use a M1917 style sling. Learn to shoot without bipods, sandbags and benches.

Respectfully take exception to that one. I think a new shooter- in particular- needs a solid rest, front and back preferably but at minimum a bipod or bag/rest at the forend, to shoot at 1000 yards. Anything else is begging for a lot of wasted ammunition and frustration.

 

[Bart B.]

If your objective is to shoot the rifle with a sling hand held in prone, then the only reason to use artificial support (bags under stock) is to test for accuracy of the system. If you'll always use artificial support, then bag it. Otherwise, there are much better slings than the century old military one; they're easier to adjust in position, stay in position on ones arm more consistantly and are more comfortable to shoot. Most bolt gun competitors quit using the old military sling back in the 1950's; they shot better with better slings.

I would test your rifle's muzzle velocity with the 175 HPMK's. They have to leave at least 2550 fps to safely stay supersonic to maintain accuracy through 1000 yards in 60 degree ambient temperature; faster in slower temperatures.

I've no idea what Kimber's accuracy standards are based on. If that "sub 1/2 MOA" claim is for only a few shots (3?) then they know it won't shoot very accurate after 3 rounds are through the barrel fired 1 second apart. I'd test it with 20 shots fired one minute apart at long range so you'll know how well it does when you do your stuff and when you don't; they all count on the range. If you plan on shooting any long range matches, that's typically what's done; for use afield, then I'd test with 10 shot groups as anything less is statistically not very meaningful. A rifle that shoots sub MOA at 100 or 200 yards may not shoot under 2 MOA at 1000; such is common. A group's subtended angle doesn't stay the same as range increases due to muzzle velocity spreads, subtle cross winds and the small spread in bullet's ballistic coefficient. They increase 10 to 15 percent for each hundred yards past the first one.

Detachable magazines have always been an issue with super accurate rifles. The best rebuilt M14NM's would shoot good lots of commercial match ammo (Federal Gold Medal Match) inside 4 inches at 600 yards tested from accuracy cradles to eliminate all human variables. Changing the magazine on one would almost always change the point of impact (group center); often as much as 1 MOA. So 2 or 3 had to be found that would let the rifle shoot to the same point of impact. It's all due to how they fit the receiver and lock into place. All the rifle parts must be in the same repeatable position for best accuracy to happen. So the competitors would have 3 magazines for all their rapid fire matches where they had to reload part way through a 10-shot string; 2 for the 10-shot match plus a spare just in case. I don't think detachable bolt gun magazines are any different so test yours to see if there is any.

Downrange ballistics; the challenge is to master them. Sierra Bullet's software has proved very accurate calculating long range bullet drop based on known muzzle velocity and starting with a 100 yard zero to calculate sight settings for zeros at 600, 800 and 1000 yards. I've not used any others, but tests comparing them against Sierra's has seldom, if ever given the same results for the same input data. Therefore, I suspect each ones developer used different standards and methods to come up with bullet drop numbers. Go to know ranges and get your own zeros using your sights. All scope sights do not move their reticules exactly the same amount for each click of the same standard. When you're changing from a 100 yard initial zero to one 987 yards away, the actual changing of the line of fire angle to line of sight will not be exactly the same for each. Measure yours by clamping the scope solidly in something then putting up a yardstick 100 yards away. Count the clicks it takes to move the reticule 30 inches, then do the math to see if your's is correct for whatever click value it has.

As Kraig mentioned, a spotting scope's invaluable to "read the wind." Watching the mirage (heat waves) wrinkle across the field of view is great. Note a 175 HPMK shot from a .308 Win will be almost 13 feet above the line of sight at about 560 yards as it finally noses over headed down to a 1000 yard target. Winds above the line of sight are typically faster than those in it. How much depends on terrain. Kraig enlighened me to this fact. Check out post #26 on page 2 in:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=507158&page=2

 

[HKFan9]

This is why I specifically asked for you both.

I should have mentioned I DO have a spotting scope, well a few in fact.

I ALSO DO own a reloading setup but unfortunately it is looking for a new home right now (remodeling) so to build brass and as Kraig suggests, get out there and shoot, I will be using the 175 SMK FPGM.

As I stated, but maybe not clearly I have ACCESS to shoot to 1000 and 1300 yards... I know .308's are capable but not ideal for 1000 and 1300 is pretty much out of question. I plan to focus on getting comfortable to start with at about 300 yards, than work my way out to 800 yards, specially if I am still limited to factory ammo.

I should have stated I am not a "benginner shooter" but I never really cut my teeth in the true long range shooting scheme of things. I have shot at distance, but it was with rigs set up to do it already (basically turn key) from someone else. I always focused on 3-gun stage type shooting, or even just combat simulation because franky the guys I work and shoot with, half are former Army SF or Marines. and it's just plain FUN.

Kraig and Bart I can honestly say all the information you already gave in invaluable, and dually noted, I REALLY appreciate it. I am less focused on winning matches than I am just being ABLE to hit something at that range.

I new DBM's and even repeater actions can be less accurate than a true solid bench rest action, but I didn't know to what degree.

As for shooting off hand with a sling... Kraig, I will probably never come close in my life time (I am in my late 20's still) to being a quarter good as you, and even I will admit my gun is big... and heavy.. and certainly OVER SCOPED I don't think holding it is an option for me at this time.

So really I can reliably shoot at 200 yards, I am looking for suggestions, tools, tips, knowledge transfer to start walking out to 300,400,500,600 for the time being.

As for laser range finders, I have one, and i appreciate the effort from posters to cover ALL bases, and my END goal is to learn range estimation and cold bore shots, but for NOW, I will be focusing on known distances, and like Kraig suggested, getting used to looking at varrying wind, conditions, target sizes at known ranges to better understand and become acustom to.

Really again, thank you all, already gives me lots to learn and think about on cold winter nights.

The best suggestion I think I would put on the table is that you've GOT to start handloading, because 1000 yard shooting is all about wind calls, and wind calls are ALL about round count and practice. Sending four or five boxes of FGMM downrange every range trip will get very expensive, I suspect even at wholesale prices but you know the deal on that better than I.

While handloading is obviously ideal and planned, you'd be AMAZED at the profit margin on ammo.. or anything recreation anymore.

Also, my scope does have a bubble level I forgot to mention, as for an angle messure. Eventually I will get one but I am shooting basically on flat ranges at the moment.

 

[Bart B.]

HKFan9, there is no difference in attainable accuracy from a box magazine repeater action and a much stiffer single shot one. That's another myth that's been around for decades. The best either one does properly tested is all shots under about 1/3 MOA at 300 yards, 1/2 at 600 and 3/4 at 1000.

 

[Palmetto-Pride]

Chronograph which you can connect via iPhone........http://www.midwayusa.com/product/626107/caldwell-ballistic-precision-chronograph?cm_vc=ProductFinding

Windmeter..........http://www.midwayusa.com/product/389379/caldwell-cross-wind-electronic-hand-held-wind-meter?cm_vc=sugv1389379

My favorite iPhone ballistic app which also has most Vortex reticles you can choose from.......http://www.rangetimesoftware.com/index.php/apps/mil-dot-ballistics-4-4

 

[HKFan9]

HKFan9, there is no difference in attainable accuracy from a box magazine repeater action and a much stiffer single shot one. That's another myth that's been around for decades. The best either one does properly tested is all shots under about 1/3 MOA at 300 yards, 1/2 at 600 and 3/4 at 1000.

Good to know I suppose. I grew up hearing it, and it seemed valid, but now I know.

I will be using the same magazine for now, so hopefully that will minimize and POI shift as you stated.

Again I am by no means going for pinpoint consistant competition scoring groups.

If I can hold a 5-10 shot string in a 16x16'' steel plate at 600ish yards, id be happy for now, gotta start somewhere I suppose.

I have too many "projects" going on right now, and credit cards to pay off to afford a better set up. Eventually I'd like a GA Percision or similar with a Schmidt & Bender w/ horous style reticle, but I didn't learn to drive on a Ferrari either.

My plan is to use this Kimber to cut my teeth and learn as Kraig said, putting rounds down range. Once I get comfortable, and once I determine the barrel to be "shot out" for my intentions, I kind of want to rebarrel it to 6.5 Creedmoor or something similar, and eventually graduate to a better rig.

 

[4runnerman]

HKFan9-The 308 will do 1000 yards with ease if you do your work. Maybe Once you get into reloading take a look at the Serria 155 match hybreds. They are a awesome bullet with a very high BC. Now I shoot off bags so If you are going to sling it or so, you are 10 steps ahead of me already. I have shot my 308 at 1200 yards with so so accuracy using the 155's. Have fun with it and learn from each shot.

 

[Jimro]

I new DBM's and even repeater actions can be less accurate than a true solid bench rest action, but I didn't know to what degree.

That is hard to quantify because even two of the same make of rifle can shoot the same "match" ammo differently.

At this point in your long range shooting career, just work on building your data book and learning to read conditions. Assuming that you have a decent load you'll be fine in the long run.

Jimro

 

[HKFan9]

What I am wanting to do is move from my 200yard shooting to 500-600yard and get comfortable there with reading conditions, holds, all that good stuff. Once I get comfortable in that area, I would work my way out to get comfortable for 700-800 yards, and so on.

I realize none of this will happen over night, but I am still young.

 

[tobnpr]

You will find that going from 200 to 500 and even 600 is only incrementally more difficult with an accurate platform on most days with reasonable conditions; it's still largely "dial and squeeze".

I am still amazed at how I can hit a ten inch gong at 600 nearly as fast as I can rack the bolt, but rarely connect at 1000 on a gong twice as large. Those last 400 yards can make a huge difference if the wind gods aren't being friendly.

 

[AllenJ]

I agree with Topnpr, out to about 600 I don't seem to have a real big problem. Beyond that though wind really starts throwing me off.

Lots of great info above, I'll add get a data log and keep good notes. Also while ballistic programs are cool tools I've seen where some really weird numbers had to be plugged into them for them to be useful.

 

[edward hogan]

Might just be going about this backwards....

You say you have an AR.... If your rifle is a precision AR-15, you might start with it? Unless you bought a slow-twist upper, your barrel ought handle the 75/77gr match BTHP bullets just fine. Much less recoil and weight. Bullet a bit more wind sensitive than the .308win at 600yds but less recoil makes up for that... Maybe try a HighPower NRA match in your area?

Randolph Constantine's book is a great one to review or just learn all the basics: Modern Highpower Competition. Lots of info in there you will gain from even if you never attend a formal match.

Nothing so wonderful about Federal Gold Medal ammo. Got loading gear you say? But do you have Precision Loading Gear....?

The ammo you can make is better than any you can buy, if you take the steps for precision. Can even load your match ammo on a Dillon 550b or faster progressive rig. Probably not going to be shooting that much though, unless you already own one; then use it.

Redding Type S FL bushing die for sizing and controlling neck tension. Pull the decap rod and use as a Body Die. Use with our w/o the expander ball, maybe use a tapered expander and grind it a thou or more under to work w/your selected bushing...

Forster Benchrest or Mic head seating die, Lee decapping die especially if going to use 1x LC brass, or WCC (winchester) and you should...

Remington 7-1/2 benchrest primers are the thing for AR-15 match use. RL-15 is the basic powder, like 24gr w/75/77gr bthp bullets.


Service Rifle shooters are getting 1/2moa or better (the winners) at 600yds w/A2 match sights. Maybe you don't need the scope?

Looking to hit at 1000yds? Dec 2009 Canadian Rifle Club bulletin details member there who was shooting 90gr Sierra and JLK match bullets from bolt gun at 1000yds and getting vertical spread of 2" with 15-20 round groups...

Get a 6.5 twist barrel and hand load that ammo in your AR-15...

Think the AR-15 heavy bthp isn't powerful? Sierra ballistic program ed 6 shows that at 500yds the 77gr is hitting w/more energy than a factory loaded 158gr .357mag from 8" barrel generates at 25yds...

What results you want? Bigger bullet hole? More felt recoil? To learn the bolt snick/flick?

Cost about .40 a round to load your 77gr bthp match ammo, down to about .30 once you own your brass. Almost 290rds to the pound of powder, cheap, excellent brass.

I dunno... Kimber prolly makes a fine rifle, but there's that FN-H Police with the Near Pic rail, chrome-lined match barrel, McMillan stock and Win 70 CRF action... or the newer Tikka Competition match rifle w/laminated stock which is basically a Sako TRG-22 at Tikka T3 price point of 50% less than the Sako... I would get that one in .260rem and not look back. But you got what you got...

If you have a precision AR-15, might not need the .308win at all. Might just go right to a 6.5/284 or get a Grendel match upper, like a Satern.

If you want to lessen your learning curve; go .223


ETA: If all your loading gear is put away/stored and it isn't precision in nature; you are lucky! Simplest way to max precision is a LE Wilson die set w/bushing adj sizer. Might not even need the arbor press.. Just a good powder scale and checkweight set and you are off. The Lee loader target series are also highly esteemed. Got a long Winter? Make ammunition!

Just some ideas....


One other thing, really need a Wilson Chamber Gauge or RCBS Precision Mic to see what is happening w/your chamber. You mic unfired brass before and after and also some multi-fired brass to see the "growth". Sizing can be tighter for a bolt gun, but size your AR brass .002-.003 under for most effective feeding. Maybe .001 less when very confident. That further aids your precision in a way no factory ammo can ever do...