g.willikers
New member
gyvel,
I got it, I read it, was joke.
Guess if it needs explaining it wasn't a very good joke.
I got it, I read it, was joke.
Guess if it needs explaining it wasn't a very good joke.
Broken Trigger Pin - S&W N frame
- Thread starter BigJimP
- Start date
Oops. It went over my head again.
Sorry.I was being defensive since one of the other posters seemed to think that lack of specialized jigs, etc., made for a poor repair. I didn't elaborate in my posts that I used support blocks for the frame, and the pin isn't really that hard to drive out.
I actually made my own pin out of drill rod and hardened it.
The hardest part was shaping the outside without disturbing the finish on the frame.
g.willikers
New member
Yeah, a lack of expensive equipment shouldn't inhibit anyone.
It's the operator more than the tools.
Just like shooting, come to think.
It's the operator more than the tools.
Just like shooting, come to think.
Hi, gyvel,
I didn't think yo say so but I did the same with the hammer stud, supporting the frame, and I also found driving out the stud pretty easy, more like a tap than a drive. I solved the outside finish problem by simply rounding off the end of the stud, like S&W did originally. A dab of cold blue took care of the color, and a stake on the inside kept the stud in place and kept it from rotating.
On a nickel plated gun, a similar approach might work, with the pin being plated before installation. Let's see what S&W does.
Jim
I didn't think yo say so but I did the same with the hammer stud, supporting the frame, and I also found driving out the stud pretty easy, more like a tap than a drive. I solved the outside finish problem by simply rounding off the end of the stud, like S&W did originally. A dab of cold blue took care of the color, and a stake on the inside kept the stud in place and kept it from rotating.
On a nickel plated gun, a similar approach might work, with the pin being plated before installation. Let's see what S&W does.
Jim
Update from&W
Not great news but....
No warranty done anymore on guns made before 1989 - at least not for 2nd owners. All work on my gun would be done, for a fee, by Performance Center which is a different company ( but I was able to talk to an experienced person that actually worked the line for N frames in early 80's )...
If Perf Shop did repairs...the pin replacement will be visible on left side of the gun even after refinishing...estimate is probably $ 350 - $500...
Originally pins were put into frame - and "peaned" or "staked" in place driving frame material tight around the collar of the pin. On outside of gun - pins were filed down - then gun was blued /or Nickel plated in my guns case.
They would make it a "shooter" ...but its not going to look the same as an original model 27-2 ...so I'm not going to send it back to S&W because if it looks different - it would just aggravate me every time I looked at it...
There is value in parts of this 27-2 made in 1981 - because parts like Hammer, Cylinder, Yoke, Trigger, etc....are no longer stocked by S&W - so its value as a parts gun is probably $ 500 or so ( I've seen Nickel cylinders sell for as much as $ 200 -- because when you drop a gun or something and need that part - its not readily available..)....
I may keep it / or let it go for parts....and move on ...buy another 27-2 when one shows up / or maybe a new N frame .357 Mag...( or both )...
Not great news ...but the guy was honest with me I think / so as things go, I had some great days with this gun for 15 yrs or so ...and there will be another one down the road / and I still have lots of K, L and N frames ...and a great Freedom Arms large frame in .357 Mag ...so lots of guns I can shoot../ and I will start the search for another one ...and go from there !!
Not great news but....
No warranty done anymore on guns made before 1989 - at least not for 2nd owners. All work on my gun would be done, for a fee, by Performance Center which is a different company ( but I was able to talk to an experienced person that actually worked the line for N frames in early 80's )...
If Perf Shop did repairs...the pin replacement will be visible on left side of the gun even after refinishing...estimate is probably $ 350 - $500...
Originally pins were put into frame - and "peaned" or "staked" in place driving frame material tight around the collar of the pin. On outside of gun - pins were filed down - then gun was blued /or Nickel plated in my guns case.
They would make it a "shooter" ...but its not going to look the same as an original model 27-2 ...so I'm not going to send it back to S&W because if it looks different - it would just aggravate me every time I looked at it...
There is value in parts of this 27-2 made in 1981 - because parts like Hammer, Cylinder, Yoke, Trigger, etc....are no longer stocked by S&W - so its value as a parts gun is probably $ 500 or so ( I've seen Nickel cylinders sell for as much as $ 200 -- because when you drop a gun or something and need that part - its not readily available..)....
I may keep it / or let it go for parts....and move on ...buy another 27-2 when one shows up / or maybe a new N frame .357 Mag...( or both )...
Not great news ...but the guy was honest with me I think / so as things go, I had some great days with this gun for 15 yrs or so ...and there will be another one down the road / and I still have lots of K, L and N frames ...and a great Freedom Arms large frame in .357 Mag ...so lots of guns I can shoot../ and I will start the search for another one ...and go from there !!
OK, here is what I would do. I would obtain a pin (stud) from Numrich, Then I would drive out the old stud as mentioned above. I would round off the end of the new stud to a neat dome shape, polish it highly or have it nickel plated, and install it, staking it from the inside, and re-assemble the pistol.
The repair will be noticeable, but it won't look any worse than the pins in older S&W's when they didn't try to blend them into the frame.
Jim
The repair will be noticeable, but it won't look any worse than the pins in older S&W's when they didn't try to blend them into the frame.
Jim
I'm considering having a buddy help me try that - as a project gun / but it'll never be a pristine model 27-2 again either.../ just a shooter.../ and if it doesn't hold up - its still a parts gun.
I'm actually considering a new S&W model 627 N frame ( .357 Mag ) - matte stainless in a 4" and a 2 1/2" - both fluted 8 rd cylinders, red ramp front sight that is interchangeable - the 4" list is $ 999 / te 2 1/2" is $ 1,079 - so probably $ 2,250 with tax and all on the pair / the Classic 27 model is only available blued, 4", 6 rds $1,019 ...but I'm leaning toward the pair of 627's in 4" and 2 1/2" and then just shop for another model 27-2 in 4" ....
I'm actually considering a new S&W model 627 N frame ( .357 Mag ) - matte stainless in a 4" and a 2 1/2" - both fluted 8 rd cylinders, red ramp front sight that is interchangeable - the 4" list is $ 999 / te 2 1/2" is $ 1,079 - so probably $ 2,250 with tax and all on the pair / the Classic 27 model is only available blued, 4", 6 rds $1,019 ...but I'm leaning toward the pair of 627's in 4" and 2 1/2" and then just shop for another model 27-2 in 4" ....
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Man, Jim, considering your tastes and your hands-on with Smith & Wesson revolvers, I can only come to the knee-jerk conclusion that you'd have a horrifying experience with a new production 627, but like I said... merely my knee-jerk conclusion. I'm sure you'll keep us in the loop and if you do AND it works out well, that would be great hear.
I'm as shocked as you are - to hear myself say - I'm actually considering these new production S&W revolvers...
On my way home from my office, I stopped at a local gunshop that I knew had a new production model 627 4" 8 shot...in stock for around $1,000. ( and yes the belly button safety is ugly - and its an 8 shot which seems sacraligious....) ...but I must admit, dry firing it ...it felt pretty good....
He also has a pair of 686's ( L frame) perf center guns ...in 4" and 5"...they were ok, but not great. I just like the N frames better...
And he had a new production Classic 27 blued in 4"...that had surprisingly small grips on it ( they were like some of the small K frame wood grips )/ its a 6 shot / and it had a really bad trigger in it especially on reset..where it was hanging up on reset ...bad spring or bad rebound slide probably...so I think that Classic 27 is off my list...( its like an Ugly Duckling - that would remind me of the real model 27 - every time I touched it )....
Where the new production model 627's look so different...that I might be able to live with them...
But I still haven't made up my mind... / ...heading to the range now for some practice with my Wilson Combat 1911 in 9mm...( that I also love ).
On my way home from my office, I stopped at a local gunshop that I knew had a new production model 627 4" 8 shot...in stock for around $1,000. ( and yes the belly button safety is ugly - and its an 8 shot which seems sacraligious....) ...but I must admit, dry firing it ...it felt pretty good....
He also has a pair of 686's ( L frame) perf center guns ...in 4" and 5"...they were ok, but not great. I just like the N frames better...
And he had a new production Classic 27 blued in 4"...that had surprisingly small grips on it ( they were like some of the small K frame wood grips )/ its a 6 shot / and it had a really bad trigger in it especially on reset..where it was hanging up on reset ...bad spring or bad rebound slide probably...so I think that Classic 27 is off my list...( its like an Ugly Duckling - that would remind me of the real model 27 - every time I touched it )....
Where the new production model 627's look so different...that I might be able to live with them...
But I still haven't made up my mind...
/ ...heading to the range now for some practice with my Wilson Combat 1911 in 9mm...( that I also love ).The way I'm reasoning this out...(its Nickel not blued...).../ but even it were a Blued model 27 - the new pin would still be visible in the bluing if S&W repairs it ( ballpark probably $ 500 ).
So the point is - if I let S&W do the repair the new pin in the left side of the frame will now be visible ( kind of like the pins are on today's scandium frames)...so it will be worthless as a collectable 27-2 ( to folks that really know these old revolvers ) ...and looking at the new pin every time I pick it up, would drive me nuts...( while that's my problem / its just the reality, that its no longer a 27-2 in terms of appearance). I never treated it as a safe queen / I took care of it - but I shot it most every month, in and out of a holster hundreds of times, while its not a primary gun, in the last 15 yrs it had at least 25,000 rds thru it - but it was still in 98% condition.
So in round numbers - I probably paid $ 750 for it 15 yrs ago / virtually new in box 27-2 pinned and recessed ( very fair price at that time ) / if it were in good mechanical and appearance shape, as a collectable today, its a
$ 1,000 - $ 1,250 gun...as is, not functioning, its a parts gun / if I let S&W fix it for $500 I'll have $1,250 in it .../ and since it will no longer be a collectable...as a shooter its value is probably $600...
So to me, that's why it makes no sense to let S&W repair this gun...
So, like I said - my reasoning is for my buddy and I to try and drill out pin - turn it into a "shooter" ....give it to one of my adult kids "as a shooter" - / keeping it - as a shooter - with visible pin on left side will drive me nuts, so I don't want to keep it --- unless it could be repaired and keep its original appearance. ( and I know I'm being a prima donna about the appearance, but that's how I look at these old guns ...they need to be in great shape - as well as perform --- and if its not up to its appearance because of this new pin ...I won't like it ).
...so I'll move on and buy a 627 ...
I will shop for another model 27-2 4" Nickel ... but I'm a little leery about risking $ 1,250 - $ 1,500 for another, what I think is, an excellent model 27-2 ...because while they demand a high price in today's market ....I will shoot it - and if I were to break another frame pin --- it would just sit there and say "I told you So" forever... / so things break... high end electronics, high end bicycles, motorcycles, cars ....and I'll move on from this too - reluctantly ---
and I have a model 19-1 4" Nickel, a model 29-2 8 3/8" Nickel, a model 27-3 Blued 6"....and several model 66's, a 686 and some 629's.../ as well as a beautiful Freedom Arms large frame I had built in .357 Mag...so it isn't like I don't have some classic revolvers to enjoy / and maybe I can learn to enjoy the new versions of the model 627's...probably in a 4" or 5"....maybe...
I looked at a model 627 2 1/2" N frame perf shop gun today ...its a round butt, with a really short frame ...so the pinkie on my strong hand, is not on the gun...so that gun is not going to work in my hands ..( and I have a model 66-2 in 2 1/2" anyway )...
....so I'm just working thru the process .../ but I'm not sending this 27-2 Nickel 4" to S&W to be repaired.
So the point is - if I let S&W do the repair the new pin in the left side of the frame will now be visible ( kind of like the pins are on today's scandium frames)...so it will be worthless as a collectable 27-2 ( to folks that really know these old revolvers ) ...and looking at the new pin every time I pick it up, would drive me nuts...( while that's my problem / its just the reality, that its no longer a 27-2 in terms of appearance). I never treated it as a safe queen / I took care of it - but I shot it most every month, in and out of a holster hundreds of times, while its not a primary gun, in the last 15 yrs it had at least 25,000 rds thru it - but it was still in 98% condition.
So in round numbers - I probably paid $ 750 for it 15 yrs ago / virtually new in box 27-2 pinned and recessed ( very fair price at that time ) / if it were in good mechanical and appearance shape, as a collectable today, its a
$ 1,000 - $ 1,250 gun...as is, not functioning, its a parts gun / if I let S&W fix it for $500 I'll have $1,250 in it .../ and since it will no longer be a collectable...as a shooter its value is probably $600...
So to me, that's why it makes no sense to let S&W repair this gun...
So, like I said - my reasoning is for my buddy and I to try and drill out pin - turn it into a "shooter" ....give it to one of my adult kids "as a shooter" - / keeping it - as a shooter - with visible pin on left side will drive me nuts, so I don't want to keep it --- unless it could be repaired and keep its original appearance. ( and I know I'm being a prima donna about the appearance, but that's how I look at these old guns ...they need to be in great shape - as well as perform --- and if its not up to its appearance because of this new pin ...I won't like it ).
...so I'll move on and buy a 627 ...
I will shop for another model 27-2 4" Nickel ... but I'm a little leery about risking $ 1,250 - $ 1,500 for another, what I think is, an excellent model 27-2 ...because while they demand a high price in today's market ....I will shoot it - and if I were to break another frame pin --- it would just sit there and say "I told you So" forever... / so things break... high end electronics, high end bicycles, motorcycles, cars ....and I'll move on from this too - reluctantly ---
and I have a model 19-1 4" Nickel, a model 29-2 8 3/8" Nickel, a model 27-3 Blued 6"....and several model 66's, a 686 and some 629's.../ as well as a beautiful Freedom Arms large frame I had built in .357 Mag...so it isn't like I don't have some classic revolvers to enjoy / and maybe I can learn to enjoy the new versions of the model 627's...probably in a 4" or 5"....maybe...
I looked at a model 627 2 1/2" N frame perf shop gun today ...its a round butt, with a really short frame ...so the pinkie on my strong hand, is not on the gun...so that gun is not going to work in my hands ..( and I have a model 66-2 in 2 1/2" anyway )...
....so I'm just working thru the process .../ but I'm not sending this 27-2 Nickel 4" to S&W to be repaired.
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Up Date
Still no firm plans on trying to fix the 27-2.....
But I bought a pair of S&W 627-5's a 2.625" and a 5" - N Frames, 8 shot, both all stainless performance shop models. With some bigger / fatter wood grips they should both be fine. The 5" has nice balance & a very good trigger / 2.625" not as good but a spring kit will probably fix that.
For now - ran 100 rounds thru each of the 627's today - and for the money they're solid guns/ a local shop got them each for about $120 off list price...../ not as great a looking gun as a traditional model 27-2 but life goes on.....
Both 627's were clean & properly lubed ( I took side plates off ) - both shot 1" groups at 7 yards with no adjustments / did a lot of draw & double tap in 3 sec / draw & fire 4 in 4 sec just getting used to balance & grips & triggers.....
Still no firm plans on trying to fix the 27-2.....
But I bought a pair of S&W 627-5's a 2.625" and a 5" - N Frames, 8 shot, both all stainless performance shop models. With some bigger / fatter wood grips they should both be fine. The 5" has nice balance & a very good trigger / 2.625" not as good but a spring kit will probably fix that.
For now - ran 100 rounds thru each of the 627's today - and for the money they're solid guns/ a local shop got them each for about $120 off list price...../ not as great a looking gun as a traditional model 27-2 but life goes on.....
Both 627's were clean & properly lubed ( I took side plates off ) - both shot 1" groups at 7 yards with no adjustments / did a lot of draw & double tap in 3 sec / draw & fire 4 in 4 sec just getting used to balance & grips & triggers.....
I understand my logic is coming across a little petty - but it's still my gun / and it's critical to me, if repaired, it come out looking like an original 1981 27-2 Nickel gun cosmetically.
I really appreciate the insight from the forum, from guys that have some experience with this failure.....because i knew nothing about it when i first posted - and I was hoping it could be repaired and maintain it's original cosmetic look ....and I would have gladly paid $600 to fix it - if it did not alter the appearance of the left side of the gun - but so far that is not possible...
I'm still hoping to try a tigweld ( i'm no welder ) but i'my going to let a local gunsmith try it -- and he and I are discussing partially drilling out the broken pin maybe fitting a bearing surface for a new pin.....and while he's never tried it / we'll see how far a few hundred bucks will go in trying one or both - and whether it cracks the finish.....and works - or ends in me scrapping the gun for parts - sadly....
I'll update in a few months when he has time to try it / in meantime I was just posting an update on buying a couple of new 627 model N frames in .357 mag - and my thoughts on them - vs the model 27's.
But I am keeping it in perspective / it's only a gun - and while I hope it can be repaired 100%....it is still only a gun....
I really appreciate the insight from the forum, from guys that have some experience with this failure.....because i knew nothing about it when i first posted - and I was hoping it could be repaired and maintain it's original cosmetic look ....and I would have gladly paid $600 to fix it - if it did not alter the appearance of the left side of the gun - but so far that is not possible...
I'm still hoping to try a tigweld ( i'm no welder ) but i'my going to let a local gunsmith try it -- and he and I are discussing partially drilling out the broken pin maybe fitting a bearing surface for a new pin.....and while he's never tried it / we'll see how far a few hundred bucks will go in trying one or both - and whether it cracks the finish.....and works - or ends in me scrapping the gun for parts - sadly....
I'll update in a few months when he has time to try it / in meantime I was just posting an update on buying a couple of new 627 model N frames in .357 mag - and my thoughts on them - vs the model 27's.
But I am keeping it in perspective / it's only a gun - and while I hope it can be repaired 100%....it is still only a gun....
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Seriously, nickel plated guns present a real problem when doing any repair work that will be visible. On a blued gun, the pin could be installed and polished down; a touch of cold blue might be good enough or, at worst, the frame would have to be reblued.
But there is no such thing as "touch up" nickel plating. The nickel plating has to be removed electrically, the gun polished completely and the plating re-done. If the color does not match that of the original parts, the cylinder and other parts may have to be re-plated also. That is why S&W charges so much; it is a very time-consuming and manual process, not a quickie chrome job put out by a local bumper shop.
When I had to replace a pin or a screw on a nickel plated H&R or IJ, I just polished the ends to a high gloss that looked (almost) like nickel and never had a customer complaint, but then those were $50 guns, not quite the same thing.
Jim
But there is no such thing as "touch up" nickel plating. The nickel plating has to be removed electrically, the gun polished completely and the plating re-done. If the color does not match that of the original parts, the cylinder and other parts may have to be re-plated also. That is why S&W charges so much; it is a very time-consuming and manual process, not a quickie chrome job put out by a local bumper shop.
When I had to replace a pin or a screw on a nickel plated H&R or IJ, I just polished the ends to a high gloss that looked (almost) like nickel and never had a customer complaint, but then those were $50 guns, not quite the same thing.
Jim
Yes, you're right.
And what is really driving me a little nuts ( and probably irrational ) as i've gone down this path - is whenever someone asked me to list the top 5 guns in my 50+ handgun collection ....my list was.....a couple of Wilson 1911's, this S&W 27-2 4" Nickel, a Freedom Arms , and maybe a Sig X-5......and every round I've ever fired thru this 27-2 ( 25,000 or so in last 15 yrs ) just flat out made me happy !
None of my model 19's all nickel in 4" - or the model 29's in nickel ( no 4" there)--- let alone 27's or 28's or 29's that I have that are blued - made me feel as good ......
The 27-2 4" Nickel ( .357 Mag ) N frame was the perfect revolver - balance, smooth trigger, great looking....that when I was a kid in the 50's - it was the model no one in my family would spend the money for ( my dad & uncles bought 28's or 19's blued --- working guns...not fancy)....
.... and now, even if I find another one for $ 1,500 -- and buy it, it'll drive me more nuts - if it breaks and I can't repair it either...../ so i'm putting a few hundred rounds thru the new 627's --- trying to fall out of love with the 27-2 ....with limited success....
Still hoping a tigweld or something might work.....! To save this beautiful gun...
And what is really driving me a little nuts ( and probably irrational ) as i've gone down this path - is whenever someone asked me to list the top 5 guns in my 50+ handgun collection ....my list was.....a couple of Wilson 1911's, this S&W 27-2 4" Nickel, a Freedom Arms , and maybe a Sig X-5......and every round I've ever fired thru this 27-2 ( 25,000 or so in last 15 yrs ) just flat out made me happy !
None of my model 19's all nickel in 4" - or the model 29's in nickel ( no 4" there)--- let alone 27's or 28's or 29's that I have that are blued - made me feel as good ......
The 27-2 4" Nickel ( .357 Mag ) N frame was the perfect revolver - balance, smooth trigger, great looking....that when I was a kid in the 50's - it was the model no one in my family would spend the money for ( my dad & uncles bought 28's or 19's blued --- working guns...not fancy)....
.... and now, even if I find another one for $ 1,500 -- and buy it, it'll drive me more nuts - if it breaks and I can't repair it either...../ so i'm putting a few hundred rounds thru the new 627's --- trying to fall out of love with the 27-2 ....with limited success....
Still hoping a tigweld or something might work.....! To save this beautiful gun...
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After some time considering my options.......a gun smith friend was able to drill out the broken pin from the inside, without drilling thru the frame exterior or the Nickel plating.../ replace the original pin, with a new pin made from spring steel ...locktighting the new pin into the frame.
The 27-2 4" Nickel is as good as new...maybe better...so it is possible to repair these older guns without destroying the collectors value...
I'm very happy to have the gun back ...as part of my collection ../ ...I just got it back early this AM, and I've only put 100 rds thru it today ...but I don't see any reason for it not be a long term repair. It feels great...
The 27-2 4" Nickel is as good as new...maybe better...so it is possible to repair these older guns without destroying the collectors value...
I'm very happy to have the gun back ...as part of my collection ../ ...I just got it back early this AM, and I've only put 100 rds thru it today ...but I don't see any reason for it not be a long term repair. It feels great...