jrinne0430
New member
Interesting, for the .223, 30-30, 458, 45-70, etc., do you use commercial off the shelf (intended for rifles) or downloaded ammo?
Bolt action hand guns. WHY?
- Thread starter 2wheelwander
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jrinne0430
New member
For your hand loads, did you reduce the charge or change the powder type compared to rifle loads? I contemplated picking up a single shot pistol (in rifle caliber) but was wondering how bad the muzzle blast was.
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stinkeypete
New member
For hand loads in the Contender, I adjusted the loads for best accuracy. It matters.
Absolute fastest velocity isn't interesting to me, if it's not accurate.
Furthermore, when I was reloading 30-30, while a deer hunting load is useful, a little 100 grain 'plinker' going 1200 fps is FUN. So fun, you might not believe it.
So.. suddenly my single action is incredibly versatile... from pine cones, tin cans, and squirrels, all the way up to big Northern white tails.
Absolute fastest velocity isn't interesting to me, if it's not accurate.
Furthermore, when I was reloading 30-30, while a deer hunting load is useful, a little 100 grain 'plinker' going 1200 fps is FUN. So fun, you might not believe it.
So.. suddenly my single action is incredibly versatile... from pine cones, tin cans, and squirrels, all the way up to big Northern white tails.
I have had contenders since the early 80s and a XP-100 almost as long. I too go for accuracy over velocity. I wanted enough energy to knock the rams over and be accurate. Larger capacity rounds don't work as well as high efficiency rounds like the TCU, IHMSA International family, etc. However some like the 222, 22 hornet and the like work good right out of the box.
stuckinthe60s
New member
funny, I never considered a TC a bolt action handgun??
No, the Contender isn't a bolt action handgun, but the same reasons for use apply to a large degree.
Bolt action handguns are invariably chambered for high intensity rounds (which the bolt action handles flawlessly) most of which exceed the capabilities of the Contender, and are usually not found in regular "pistol" cartridges, simply because those rounds don't need the bolt action strength.
People who do have single shot pistols often have Contenders /Encores as well as bolt action pistols, and for the same general reasons, more power and accuracy than common repeating pistols and smaller, handier packages than full size rifles.
Bolt action handguns are invariably chambered for high intensity rounds (which the bolt action handles flawlessly) most of which exceed the capabilities of the Contender, and are usually not found in regular "pistol" cartridges, simply because those rounds don't need the bolt action strength.
People who do have single shot pistols often have Contenders /Encores as well as bolt action pistols, and for the same general reasons, more power and accuracy than common repeating pistols and smaller, handier packages than full size rifles.
BandeauRouge
Moderator
But it raises issues though, the rifle cartridge in a hand gun.
Alot of people consider the 30-30 to be useless from an 18" barelled rifled, and not good for more then 100 yards. But toss it in a 14" contender, and its now considered a 200 yard gun, even if you use the same ammunition in both.
You CAN single load a spitzer into a lever gun.
If people complain a 6.4 pound scope and rifle in .308 winchester is "horrid in recoil", then how do they find a 4 pound pistol in .308 winchester to be?
Alot of people consider the 30-30 to be useless from an 18" barelled rifled, and not good for more then 100 yards. But toss it in a 14" contender, and its now considered a 200 yard gun, even if you use the same ammunition in both.
You CAN single load a spitzer into a lever gun.
If people complain a 6.4 pound scope and rifle in .308 winchester is "horrid in recoil", then how do they find a 4 pound pistol in .308 winchester to be?
I am as guilty as anyone for wandering around inside my skull in the world of my imagination.
I certainly have come to some inaccurate conclusions that were not based on real world experience. Just the dark place inside my skull.
A friend said he had an XP-100 that would not hit a mattress at 100 yds.
I was skeptical. I told him I had a high degree of confidence I could get it to shoot 2 MOA at 100 yds.(That space inside my skull again)
Turns out the 221 Fireball was rechambered to .223 cuz its bigger, Gotta be better! He brought me the gun and some White Box 5,56.
When I test fired it, about 25 yds,bullets went through the target sideways.
That old twist rate thing. I loaded some 52 gr Matchkings with H-335.
10 shots made a ragged hole at 100 yds. He is a lefty and he wanted a left hand thumbhole. I did it for him. He was happy.
My experience is with a falling block made by MOA Maximum of 17-4 PH steel.
Very strong. 14 in Douglas bull bbl. Benched,I was accustomed to quarter sized 100 yd groups,usually 3 shots. (I know,but I mentioned it)
260 Rem ,120 gr Nosler BT ,2600 fps. I don't take a bench to the field.
Leaning on my elbow,resting the gun on my knee,at 200 yds ,I usually did not miss a grapefruit or clay bird . Been there,done that,got the tee shirt.
Recoil? Its held just tight enough to not drop it. Hand and arm are free to bounce. Bounce it does! But its not uncomfortable. Trigger is superb.
I can tell you it works.
I certainly have come to some inaccurate conclusions that were not based on real world experience. Just the dark place inside my skull.
A friend said he had an XP-100 that would not hit a mattress at 100 yds.
I was skeptical. I told him I had a high degree of confidence I could get it to shoot 2 MOA at 100 yds.(That space inside my skull again)
Turns out the 221 Fireball was rechambered to .223 cuz its bigger, Gotta be better! He brought me the gun and some White Box 5,56.
When I test fired it, about 25 yds,bullets went through the target sideways.
That old twist rate thing. I loaded some 52 gr Matchkings with H-335.
10 shots made a ragged hole at 100 yds. He is a lefty and he wanted a left hand thumbhole. I did it for him. He was happy.
My experience is with a falling block made by MOA Maximum of 17-4 PH steel.
Very strong. 14 in Douglas bull bbl. Benched,I was accustomed to quarter sized 100 yd groups,usually 3 shots. (I know,but I mentioned it)
260 Rem ,120 gr Nosler BT ,2600 fps. I don't take a bench to the field.
Leaning on my elbow,resting the gun on my knee,at 200 yds ,I usually did not miss a grapefruit or clay bird . Been there,done that,got the tee shirt.
Recoil? Its held just tight enough to not drop it. Hand and arm are free to bounce. Bounce it does! But its not uncomfortable. Trigger is superb.
I can tell you it works.
The main practical difference Contender vs bolt handgun is the Contender is about a 40-50ksi action where the bolt action will handle 65ksi rounds. The Encore improved that, but at a huge weight penalty.
I think both benefit from moderate sized cases loaded to moderate pressures. 30 Herrett and 375 JDJ are both excellent examples of this!
Then the are the ballistics. People talk about shooting rifles to 600 plus and handguns to 50yds. Well these fill a nice 50-300yd pocket where most game is taken!
I think both benefit from moderate sized cases loaded to moderate pressures. 30 Herrett and 375 JDJ are both excellent examples of this!
Then the are the ballistics. People talk about shooting rifles to 600 plus and handguns to 50yds. Well these fill a nice 50-300yd pocket where most game is taken!
Just out of curiosity, was it a stock 10" barrel XP-100 that had been rechambered??
(because that's rather dumb...
)Took me years of wondering, before I finally figured out that the reason Remington came up with the .221 Fireball wasn't just so you got to buy another Remington round but actually for practicality and even a bit of economy.
10" barrel. Look at the loading data, for .221, .222, and .223 in 10" barrels.
Shooting the same bullets, they all get the same speed. The larger cases burn more powder for zero velocity gain. You do get a bigger muzzle blast, from burning 2 - 5gr more powder but that is about it.
IF you go to a longer barrel (such as 14") that changes, but from a 10", you can only get a certain amount of speed and burning a few grains more powder doesn't change that to any significant amount. The Fireball holds all the powder you can use from a 10" tube.
Lots of people talk about shooting rifles to 600 yards. I wonder how many actually do. Probably not as many as people who shoot handguns to ranges beyond 50 yards.
They find it ..different... because the stock is not slamming into their shoulder and the hands and arms have more "give" to absorb recoil. A hefty jolt to the hands feels much different than getting pounded in the shoulder, and even a higher amount of calculated energy feels like less in your hands than on your shoulder.
Electrod47
New member
Remington XP-100 ...why? the 221Fireball...steel rams. It was for a specific purpose and much appreciated. Let mine go in the early 90's...one of my gun deals I still regret.
44 AMP: Yes,it was a 10 in factory 221 Fireball barrel.
I had nothing to do with rechambering it. I was being facetious with my "bigger is better" comment.
I agree with you. IMO,similar rules apply to the AR pistol/SBR thing. A 10 in or less 5.56 does not deliver significantly more than a 10 in 300 BLK.
Another topic that will get eyerolls from me: 7MM-08 is an efficient,balanced cartridge. Significant gains can be had with 7mm-06 Ackley Improved.
Not so much more with a 7mm Rem Mag. Note,few recommended loads exceed 85% load density.
Then along comes Layne Simpson with the 7mm STW?
I don't want to load 140 gr bullets in a 7mm belted mag. I prefer 160 gr plus. A cartridge like the STW vs magazine length requires deep seating or light bullets. Try loading mag length 175 gr plus VLDs for your 7 STW.
I prefer the 30-338 to the 300 Win Mag for the same reason. About .150 in more mag room for 200 gr + or - bullets.
I know,the 300 Win Mag and the 7 STW have many loyal fans. Thats OK.
IMO,the 7x61 Sharpe and Hart and the 308 Norma were better designs.
I had nothing to do with rechambering it. I was being facetious with my "bigger is better" comment.
I agree with you. IMO,similar rules apply to the AR pistol/SBR thing. A 10 in or less 5.56 does not deliver significantly more than a 10 in 300 BLK.
Another topic that will get eyerolls from me: 7MM-08 is an efficient,balanced cartridge. Significant gains can be had with 7mm-06 Ackley Improved.
Not so much more with a 7mm Rem Mag. Note,few recommended loads exceed 85% load density.
Then along comes Layne Simpson with the 7mm STW?
I don't want to load 140 gr bullets in a 7mm belted mag. I prefer 160 gr plus. A cartridge like the STW vs magazine length requires deep seating or light bullets. Try loading mag length 175 gr plus VLDs for your 7 STW.
I prefer the 30-338 to the 300 Win Mag for the same reason. About .150 in more mag room for 200 gr + or - bullets.
I know,the 300 Win Mag and the 7 STW have many loyal fans. Thats OK.
IMO,the 7x61 Sharpe and Hart and the 308 Norma were better designs.
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I’ve had Rem XPs and Contenders. Far as I’m corncerned they taint a pistol nor rifle. For that matter these massive revolvers and auto pistols that can only be practical shot off a rest are in the same class. I guess I’m pistol snob because I define handgun shooting as standing up on your hind legs and shooting with irons.
Jim Watson
New member
Somebody made a bolt action free pistol to compete with the usual falling blocks.
That is precisely the point. Something that, when correctly set up and properly used is as accurate at normal hunting ranges as a rifle, but is shorter, lighter, and still has adequate power for the chosen game.
I'll see your snob, and raise you, one hand.
Come out and visit, bring your favorite iron sighted pistol, I'll bring mine, we'll shoot, from our hind legs, ONE HANDED, off hand in hip pocket, lit Marlboro dangling from corner of lip optional. See who rings the 200yd gong most often, shall we??
I like that this has spawned good conversation and all respect/apologies to the OP because what I'll say comes across as obnoxious, but it isn't my intention to be obnoxious but to drive home the point:
"answer to a question that was never asked" is amongst the WORST tropes kicked out in gun forums. Of zero value other than finding anyone who enjoys the target subject and dismissing them entirely. And a horrendous gun forum trope when you simply consider what damn near all of us active in the forums -DO- with guns.
We are not the general populace.
We are not the average shooter.
We are not the random general gun buyer.
We are enthusiasts. Most folks that burn time and energy on gun forums are quite deep in to this hobby and enjoy all wild facets of the game and that would certainly include specialty handguns.
"answer to a question that was never asked" is amongst the WORST tropes kicked out in gun forums. Of zero value other than finding anyone who enjoys the target subject and dismissing them entirely. And a horrendous gun forum trope when you simply consider what damn near all of us active in the forums -DO- with guns.
We are not the general populace.
We are not the average shooter.
We are not the random general gun buyer.
We are enthusiasts. Most folks that burn time and energy on gun forums are quite deep in to this hobby and enjoy all wild facets of the game and that would certainly include specialty handguns.
I missed out on a few decades of pistol shooting enjoyment by ignoring the single shots, because they were only single shots....
Sure,. I'd read a bit about them (before there were home computers, let alone the internet) but wasn't really that interested, because, after all, they only held one shot.
Then one day, just out of curiosity, I handled a Contender at a gun shop. Balance was ...ok, not great, but ok, sights were decent irons, and adjustable, but what got me was the trigger pull.
SWEET!!!! short, light, crisp, it was great. SO, naturally, I didn't buy that gun.
But I did buy one at the next gun show I went to, found one in .45Colt/.410, both calibers I had guns and ammo for, and the price was acceptable.
That gun was followed by more barrels, and then even more barrels and eventually a second frame, and, stocks, & etc.
IT taught me a lot, not the least of which is that pistols aren't just about being able to dump multiple rounds into the A zone in the blink of an eye, at spitting distance. (that is an entirely valid skill, but as the Bard pointed out, there are other things in life, as well)
Call it Zen and the art of handgunning, or what ever you like, but its about ONE PERFECT SHOT. Think you're a good pistol shot? You might be right. OR you might just be good enough, and perhaps fast. Get a Contender, get a .22LR and that gun will show you just how really "good" you are, or aren't. Shoot offhand, iron sights, and see how well you can do. You might be in for an education, and a personal challenge. I was.
I had always had a small want for an XP-100. First, I thought they looked neat, and second because I like Rem 600 series carbines. After getting to know the single shot through my Contenders, my desire for the Remington grew a lot. Took me a couple years of haunting the gun shows to find what I wanted.
Which was an XP-100 in original stock factory trim. turns out they weren't very common, as, thanks to the popularity of shooting steel with them lead to most of the ones I ran across, both at the shows and in the shops were customized guns. Different stocks, rebarreled for a variety of calibers.
Didn't want one of those...finally got one fully stock, the Rem nylon stock, rib and in its original .221 Fireball. With a nice scope, too.
Trigger on that one is not just sweet, it is outstanding.
I've got or had pistols in nearly all the flavors at one time or another. Revolvers from small to huge, semis from .22lrs to .44/45 magnums. Yes, I have and shoot some of those giant pistols others think impractical or impossible, and my single shots range from .22LR to .45-70.
IF defensive handgunning is your thing, go for it! IF its your only thing, enjoy! But if your handgunning is limited to service pistols and such, you have no idea of the fun and the valuable skill training you are missing out on.
Sure,. I'd read a bit about them (before there were home computers, let alone the internet) but wasn't really that interested, because, after all, they only held one shot.
Then one day, just out of curiosity, I handled a Contender at a gun shop. Balance was ...ok, not great, but ok, sights were decent irons, and adjustable, but what got me was the trigger pull.
SWEET!!!! short, light, crisp, it was great. SO, naturally, I didn't buy that gun.
But I did buy one at the next gun show I went to, found one in .45Colt/.410, both calibers I had guns and ammo for, and the price was acceptable.
That gun was followed by more barrels, and then even more barrels and eventually a second frame, and, stocks, & etc.
IT taught me a lot, not the least of which is that pistols aren't just about being able to dump multiple rounds into the A zone in the blink of an eye, at spitting distance.
(that is an entirely valid skill, but as the Bard pointed out, there are other things in life, as well)Call it Zen and the art of handgunning, or what ever you like, but its about ONE PERFECT SHOT. Think you're a good pistol shot? You might be right. OR you might just be good enough, and perhaps fast. Get a Contender, get a .22LR and that gun will show you just how really "good" you are, or aren't. Shoot offhand, iron sights, and see how well you can do. You might be in for an education, and a personal challenge. I was.
I had always had a small want for an XP-100. First, I thought they looked neat, and second because I like Rem 600 series carbines. After getting to know the single shot through my Contenders, my desire for the Remington grew a lot. Took me a couple years of haunting the gun shows to find what I wanted.
Which was an XP-100 in original stock factory trim. turns out they weren't very common, as, thanks to the popularity of shooting steel with them lead to most of the ones I ran across, both at the shows and in the shops were customized guns. Different stocks, rebarreled for a variety of calibers.
Didn't want one of those...finally got one fully stock, the Rem nylon stock, rib and in its original .221 Fireball. With a nice scope, too.
Trigger on that one is not just sweet, it is outstanding.
I've got or had pistols in nearly all the flavors at one time or another. Revolvers from small to huge, semis from .22lrs to .44/45 magnums. Yes, I have and shoot some of those giant pistols others think impractical or impossible, and my single shots range from .22LR to .45-70.
IF defensive handgunning is your thing, go for it! IF its your only thing, enjoy! But if your handgunning is limited to service pistols and such, you have no idea of the fun and the valuable skill training you are missing out on.