NSO_w/_SIG
New member
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/07/london.tube/index.html
Looks like some type of terrorist attack.
Looks like some type of terrorist attack.
Blasts rock UK subway
- Thread starter NSO_w/_SIG
- Start date
Bruce in West Oz
New member
Six Underground explosions on trains; at least 1 on a bus.
Police Commissioner says there "may have been more incidents".
Claiming only 2 dead and some 90 injured. This is a wild underestimation, of course, since they don't want to panic people.
Blair has called it a terrorism attack.
Bastards!!
Police Commissioner says there "may have been more incidents".
Claiming only 2 dead and some 90 injured. This is a wild underestimation, of course, since they don't want to panic people.
Blair has called it a terrorism attack.
Bastards!!
KS Freeman
You're blaming the Spanish people for bombing buses/Underground in London? Do you blame me for Madrid? I used to work in NYC.
Face facts. The terrorists are well entrenched in the countries they are going to hit. What we are seeing in Iraq is recruit training for all the new misfits to learn how to fight us. You don't plan this kind of sophisticated simultaneous cell bomb attack by running around in Iraq yelling about Jihad. Most of the bombers they have over there sacrifice themselves. London and Madrid bombers were far away, from what we know. Of course, more will be learned about London in the future.
This whole concept of lets fight them there so we don't fight them here is crap. It's a concocted lie to get us into a war for Big Oil. Our government lies to us about the threat from Iraq due to WMD and now it's a terrorist haven. Bush can't even command big advance fees from writing a book because they want him to be candid. That's like asking a 4 year old's parent to tell him/her there is no Santy Claus.
They want to fight us at their choosing and on their terms. Given the openness and size of our country, it's almost impossible for us to prepare for what they will do next. One thing we can do is not to panic. That is the reaction they hope will happen.
You're blaming the Spanish people for bombing buses/Underground in London? Do you blame me for Madrid? I used to work in NYC.
Face facts. The terrorists are well entrenched in the countries they are going to hit. What we are seeing in Iraq is recruit training for all the new misfits to learn how to fight us. You don't plan this kind of sophisticated simultaneous cell bomb attack by running around in Iraq yelling about Jihad. Most of the bombers they have over there sacrifice themselves. London and Madrid bombers were far away, from what we know. Of course, more will be learned about London in the future.
This whole concept of lets fight them there so we don't fight them here is crap. It's a concocted lie to get us into a war for Big Oil. Our government lies to us about the threat from Iraq due to WMD and now it's a terrorist haven. Bush can't even command big advance fees from writing a book because they want him to be candid. That's like asking a 4 year old's parent to tell him/her there is no Santy Claus.
They want to fight us at their choosing and on their terms. Given the openness and size of our country, it's almost impossible for us to prepare for what they will do next. One thing we can do is not to panic. That is the reaction they hope will happen.
The difference between NY (which cannot be said to have an influence) and Madrid (which is debatable) is that New Yorkers and the American people at large did not cave to the "inferred poltical demands," if you will, of the terrorists. I think most people associated with terrorism would probably say their lives have gotten worse since September 11th. I'd say that's better than the alternative of tossing our faith in our elected officials out the window and putting in some softball socialist who may not irritate the fundamentalists so much right now but sets the stage for a riskier future by dismantling our military. Oh wait - except for the lack of a major precipitating attack, that sounds very much like the Clinton years. We can't fight them on their terms because they have none. They don't want to fight. A fight infers you can defend yourself. They want to kill the defenseless, and will continue to do so with wanton disregard for anything sacred in the most underhanded ways possible. But when you consider how small their base of recruitment is here in the US, the fact that they can't set up traditional training facilities here, and that they still need to be networked back to and communicating with (however subtley) other cells located abroad, I would hardly call our policy futile. When somebody figures out how to make terrorists glow pink when viewed from some omnicient, all-penetrating satellite above our country, I'll say we can chill out elsewhere. But despite the fact that it is virtually impossible to get any better degree of certainty than speculation with dealing with such motivated but primitively organized (and ultimately just backwards-ass) groups, we can't just sit idly and do our best at responding when attacks happen. Preemption is necessary to try and minimize our casualties, which is what we pay the government to do with our taxes.
That rant aside, it's pretty irrelevant to right now. I know we've got an international membership base here, so I just wanted to say to anyone over there in Great Britain, our hearts go out to you and you're in our thoughts and prayers.
That rant aside, it's pretty irrelevant to right now. I know we've got an international membership base here, so I just wanted to say to anyone over there in Great Britain, our hearts go out to you and you're in our thoughts and prayers.
First, I'm LIVID. The barbarians have struck again.
Second, I agree that there is no way that Madrid can in any way be held responsible.
Third, I agree that our declarations to stomp the terrorists by fighting them toe to toe are silly-- these people don't and won't fight head-on. This time they didn't even have suicide missions-- they were time bombs, apparently.
We have some strategizing to do.
I am pleased to see Tony Blair keeping a stiff upper lip about it all, though.
Second, I agree that there is no way that Madrid can in any way be held responsible.
Third, I agree that our declarations to stomp the terrorists by fighting them toe to toe are silly-- these people don't and won't fight head-on. This time they didn't even have suicide missions-- they were time bombs, apparently.
We have some strategizing to do.
I am pleased to see Tony Blair keeping a stiff upper lip about it all, though.
Good post BClark. Your points are very valid and well taken.
To the members from the UK, I want to express my condolences for this tragedy. I too am of British descent (1st generation Scot), and truly feel for you at this time.
Let us work together to wipe this scum from the planet. As Ben Franklin said, "we can all hang together, or surely we will all hang separately."
To the members from the UK, I want to express my condolences for this tragedy. I too am of British descent (1st generation Scot), and truly feel for you at this time.
Let us work together to wipe this scum from the planet. As Ben Franklin said, "we can all hang together, or surely we will all hang separately."
Wouldn't you agree that we need to do a combination of "fighting them toe to toe" and........ oh that's right you didn't offer an alternative.LongPath said:
I'm not naive enough to think that fighting a conventional war is going to wipe out terrorism. It's a different sort of foe than we're used to and they fight dirty.
However, to imply that bringing the battle to their soil is futile is something I cannot even understand, especially when you offer no resolute alternative.
So, while I would agree with you that it's not the "solution" in and of itself.... it's definitely part of whatever solution there may be.
Well, it seems the "blame America first" crowd has been reactivated, or should I say--rejuvenated. They just can't help but show themselves to be the reactionary appeaserss that they are. Maybe when the cowardly assassins are freely roaming their neighborhoods, the give-em-anything-they-want liberals will feel all smug when they're able to say, "see, I told ya so."
I saw that movie with Chuck Norris
Invasion USA. The terrorists, from Cuba and USSR were freely roaming our streets, killing us as we went about our normal business. Good thing Chuck Norris kicked the crud out of them.
In my opinion, the bad guys go for the big bang effect. They want some spectacular way of frightening us. Be it flying in a plane, going to work in a tall building, riding a bus or train. That's what they seek. FEAR. The paralysis of being afraid to go about your normal life.
Do you really believe in a nation of 290 million freedom loving people, that roughly 40 to 50 thousand thugs will roam our neighborhoods. Now will they blow up your sister when she goes for a ride on a choo choo through the Holland Tunnel? Well that's a different story.
They are very evil, despicable people and need to be exterminated, no doubt. But to give them all of these super powers because they blow up stuff. Here's an oft overlooked statistical fact. At the end of WWI, more people had died from Yellow Fever then from combat. Now can you shoot a disease to get even?
Guns only solve so much. We need to out think these b*stards and find out where they live and what they're up to. You can't shoot the Anthrax after all. Why isn't that suspect in Gitmo?
Good luck to our side in this fight.
Invasion USA. The terrorists, from Cuba and USSR were freely roaming our streets, killing us as we went about our normal business. Good thing Chuck Norris kicked the crud out of them.
In my opinion, the bad guys go for the big bang effect. They want some spectacular way of frightening us. Be it flying in a plane, going to work in a tall building, riding a bus or train. That's what they seek. FEAR. The paralysis of being afraid to go about your normal life.
Do you really believe in a nation of 290 million freedom loving people, that roughly 40 to 50 thousand thugs will roam our neighborhoods. Now will they blow up your sister when she goes for a ride on a choo choo through the Holland Tunnel? Well that's a different story.
They are very evil, despicable people and need to be exterminated, no doubt. But to give them all of these super powers because they blow up stuff. Here's an oft overlooked statistical fact. At the end of WWI, more people had died from Yellow Fever then from combat. Now can you shoot a disease to get even?
Guns only solve so much. We need to out think these b*stards and find out where they live and what they're up to. You can't shoot the Anthrax after all. Why isn't that suspect in Gitmo?
Good luck to our side in this fight.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"You're blaming the Spanish people for bombing buses/Underground in London? Do you blame me for Madrid? I used to work in NYC."
Uhm... No, he's saying that the Spanish people, after the Madrid bombings, fled in the face of terrorism by essentially checking out of the GWOT.
The collective cry seemed to be "We surrender, please don't hurt us."
That response served only to embolden the terrorists, who viewed the new Socialist governments unliateral withdrawal from Iraq and most other GWOT activites as an unqualified victory.
Uhm... No, he's saying that the Spanish people, after the Madrid bombings, fled in the face of terrorism by essentially checking out of the GWOT.
The collective cry seemed to be "We surrender, please don't hurt us."
That response served only to embolden the terrorists, who viewed the new Socialist governments unliateral withdrawal from Iraq and most other GWOT activites as an unqualified victory.
Fred Hansen
New member
What Mike said.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
The issue about Iraq, IMHO, is strictly an empirical one.
There were two reasons for invading, on the surface:
1. WMDs - that was a mistake
2. Establishing a new government that in a geopolitical sense will overturn the rise of militant and muderous fanatics in the Middle East and elsewhere. Whether than happens - we just don't yet.
I have no trouble with us going to war in Iraq - if it works. I honestly don't know if it is working. Perhaps we fight terrorists there and kill them but maybe we generate more terrorists than there were before for a net loss in reducing terrorism. We really don't know.
I also think that it is a matter of time till we see another attack in the US. Madrid and London style attacks can easily happen here.
It seems that Al-Q (if they are the masterminds) are a slow acting group. This was planned for the G8. Who knows what will happen here for some event.
I also don't think that actions in Iraq really influence Al-Q, they have their own agenda. I think that they have no problem using the rhetoric of Iraq if it serves their own purposes. They really said not much about Israel and the Palestinians for quite awhile and then used it. Similar with Iraq, I think.
We are not going to get anywhere unless we get off Middle East oil with a WWII dedication to do it. Until then, we will tolerate the Saudis support of the terrorists and schools/mosques that teach and preach such.
I really don't see much energy in the Bush or any administration to make such a committed effort.
The issue is complex and I honestly don't see enough committment to the WOT to really control it.
My heart goes out to the UK. My frustration is that I think Bush is too weak. We are putzing around in Iraq and Afghanistan and not making the major efforts needed.
A few years ago, my kid went to France to study. She stayed outside Lyon. When the program was over, she took a train from Lyon to Paris to get her flight home. The next Saturday that train was blown up by terrorists.
It is unacceptable not to do whatever it takes to stop terrorism by striking at its core. We don't have or have not demonstrated the will to do so. We use half measures and refuse to really challenge the instigators.
Soon, Iran will have the bomb and we just sat there with our thumbs ...
When are we going to eat a NK or Iranian bomb in the US?
It's a war, so fight it. Max out. We haven't done it yet.
Sorry to ramble.
There were two reasons for invading, on the surface:
1. WMDs - that was a mistake
2. Establishing a new government that in a geopolitical sense will overturn the rise of militant and muderous fanatics in the Middle East and elsewhere. Whether than happens - we just don't yet.
I have no trouble with us going to war in Iraq - if it works. I honestly don't know if it is working. Perhaps we fight terrorists there and kill them but maybe we generate more terrorists than there were before for a net loss in reducing terrorism. We really don't know.
I also think that it is a matter of time till we see another attack in the US. Madrid and London style attacks can easily happen here.
It seems that Al-Q (if they are the masterminds) are a slow acting group. This was planned for the G8. Who knows what will happen here for some event.
I also don't think that actions in Iraq really influence Al-Q, they have their own agenda. I think that they have no problem using the rhetoric of Iraq if it serves their own purposes. They really said not much about Israel and the Palestinians for quite awhile and then used it. Similar with Iraq, I think.
We are not going to get anywhere unless we get off Middle East oil with a WWII dedication to do it. Until then, we will tolerate the Saudis support of the terrorists and schools/mosques that teach and preach such.
I really don't see much energy in the Bush or any administration to make such a committed effort.
The issue is complex and I honestly don't see enough committment to the WOT to really control it.
My heart goes out to the UK. My frustration is that I think Bush is too weak. We are putzing around in Iraq and Afghanistan and not making the major efforts needed.
A few years ago, my kid went to France to study. She stayed outside Lyon. When the program was over, she took a train from Lyon to Paris to get her flight home. The next Saturday that train was blown up by terrorists.
It is unacceptable not to do whatever it takes to stop terrorism by striking at its core. We don't have or have not demonstrated the will to do so. We use half measures and refuse to really challenge the instigators.
Soon, Iran will have the bomb and we just sat there with our thumbs ...
When are we going to eat a NK or Iranian bomb in the US?
It's a war, so fight it. Max out. We haven't done it yet.
Sorry to ramble.
I'm getting tired of this crap.
Why are we "merciful" to people who kill WOMEN AND CHILDREN.
Serriously, we need to kill everyone one of those SOBs, and if we arn't already in the country responsible, its time to turn them into a fricken glass parking lot. We need to show them we won't take these murderous acts any more.
Why are we "merciful" to people who kill WOMEN AND CHILDREN.
Serriously, we need to kill everyone one of those SOBs, and if we arn't already in the country responsible, its time to turn them into a fricken glass parking lot. We need to show them we won't take these murderous acts any more.
My thoughts and prayers to our allies in the UK.
Hopfully we can learn a lesson from this tragedy -- this should show all of us that taking the citizens' guns away and covering the nation with surveillance cameras will never make you safe. A gun probably wouldn't have stopped today's attack, but the absence of guns didn't prevent it, and neither did their beloved cameras. Robbing people of their civil liberties will not defeat terrorism.
Give the Brits their guns back!
Hopfully we can learn a lesson from this tragedy -- this should show all of us that taking the citizens' guns away and covering the nation with surveillance cameras will never make you safe. A gun probably wouldn't have stopped today's attack, but the absence of guns didn't prevent it, and neither did their beloved cameras. Robbing people of their civil liberties will not defeat terrorism.
Give the Brits their guns back!
Thoughts and prayers go out to those in London.
I am to mad at the folks that did this.
The war in Iraq is about oil....Take a peek at how much oil the United States imports. If powers hostile to the US were to gain contol of Mid East Oil Supplies we would be in deep doo-doo. Oil is vital to our national security and economy. No brainer on that one.
Terrorists will never seek to fight a force on force battle because we win they lose. If we cant stop them in the UK from doing this how are 150,000 troops going to stop them in Iraq.
The Bush admninstration screwed the pooch in Iraq. Rumsfeld went in to light for after the war. Fired or got rid of everybody who told him that he was going in too light. They eased Colin Powell out of the way. Rumsfeld told Bush the he wanted the Dept of State to have no responsibility in Iraq and that it would be a DoD operation 100%. Colin Powell developed what has become known as the Powell Doctine. Colin Powell has a proven track record. Dont even go with Cheney was there during Desert Storm. Look at some of the old briefings and you will see Colin Powell with Cheney in the background. War is not a service industry in the Fortune 500.
Cliff Notes version:
"Doctrine expresses that military action should be used only as a last resort and only if there is a clear risk to national security by the intended target; the force, when used, should be overwhelming and disproportionate to the force used by the enemy; there must be strong support for the campaign by the general public; and there must be a clear exit strategy from the conflict in which the military is engaged"
Well we never found the WMDs (we now have a multiple choice list you can choose from), no ovewhelming and disproportiante force. they did have public support but that is fading. What exit strategy?
For not following rules 1 and 2 and not having a clear and defined exit strategy now public support is waning. Just saying you are going to train the Iraqis and someday turn it over to them doesnt count. That is an objective not an exit plan.
They didnt even have a plan for after the war. My chances of winning the lottery are probably better than the chance that the administration has an exit plan.
So if the administration is not capable of following a simple doctrine what are the chances they can formulate a plan to wipe out terrorists?
We are working on the third anniversary in Iraq.
Due to the lack of leadership and the "Reign of Terror" in the DOD by Rumsfeld the Terrible, Iraq is still not a done deal.
I am to mad at the folks that did this.
The war in Iraq is about oil....Take a peek at how much oil the United States imports. If powers hostile to the US were to gain contol of Mid East Oil Supplies we would be in deep doo-doo. Oil is vital to our national security and economy. No brainer on that one.
Terrorists will never seek to fight a force on force battle because we win they lose. If we cant stop them in the UK from doing this how are 150,000 troops going to stop them in Iraq.
The Bush admninstration screwed the pooch in Iraq. Rumsfeld went in to light for after the war. Fired or got rid of everybody who told him that he was going in too light. They eased Colin Powell out of the way. Rumsfeld told Bush the he wanted the Dept of State to have no responsibility in Iraq and that it would be a DoD operation 100%. Colin Powell developed what has become known as the Powell Doctine. Colin Powell has a proven track record. Dont even go with Cheney was there during Desert Storm. Look at some of the old briefings and you will see Colin Powell with Cheney in the background. War is not a service industry in the Fortune 500.
Cliff Notes version:
"Doctrine expresses that military action should be used only as a last resort and only if there is a clear risk to national security by the intended target; the force, when used, should be overwhelming and disproportionate to the force used by the enemy; there must be strong support for the campaign by the general public; and there must be a clear exit strategy from the conflict in which the military is engaged"
Well we never found the WMDs (we now have a multiple choice list you can choose from), no ovewhelming and disproportiante force. they did have public support but that is fading. What exit strategy?
For not following rules 1 and 2 and not having a clear and defined exit strategy now public support is waning. Just saying you are going to train the Iraqis and someday turn it over to them doesnt count. That is an objective not an exit plan.
They didnt even have a plan for after the war. My chances of winning the lottery are probably better than the chance that the administration has an exit plan.
So if the administration is not capable of following a simple doctrine what are the chances they can formulate a plan to wipe out terrorists?
We are working on the third anniversary in Iraq.
Due to the lack of leadership and the "Reign of Terror" in the DOD by Rumsfeld the Terrible, Iraq is still not a done deal.
Well, now. I've got a real "Dodged a Bullet" feeling, as I was at the US Embassy in London just yesterday renewing my passport. I've been routing phone calls, emails, SMS messages and Instant Messenger text via "friend-of-a-friend" IP all day. Frankly, I'm knackered.
We're at over 30 confirmed dead, now - 33 is the official count, but also officially expected to rise.
The current tally is 3 Tube stations bombed and one bus blown up. Those are the current confirmed detonations. My eternal thanks to Sky News for "confirming" six tube stations and four buses blown up early during the events. The slack-jawed, drooling, ratings-scrabbling MORONS that they are.
My apologies, it's been a long day. England's a small country, with a high population density, and most of my friends and cow-orkers are in London. I rolled less than 4 on my d20, or I'd have been involved with it today. Lucky, lucky me.
Long story short - in a free country, there's bugger-all you can do to stop this sort of attack. This sort of cowardly, pathetic, back-stabbing, drunk-rolling sodding attack. I'm really lucky - all that's affected me personally is a friend of a friend's given birth 36 weeks early and that friend-of-a-friend's husband doesn't have legs any more.
There are a lot of people worse off. Some mothers and fathers won't be coming home tonight. Some children won't be coming home. And they're of every race, colour, creed and belief.
It is profoundly upsetting to think that anyone honestly believes that this sort of attack will further any kind of cause. At all. It won't. They way it was executed was as random as cancer, and about as meaningful.
I shall be strapping my laptop to my back tomorrow, and going to work as normal. As will all my friends, and my co-workers. Some of us a bit singed. Some of us are a lot worse off. Some of the people I know have been flooding to hospitals as part of emergency mobilisation programmes, some just because they know nursing, be is maxillio-facial or wetnursing, to volunteer their support.
The one thing a free country can say in a situation like this is "To hell with you. Business as usual."
To their credit, it looks like London will be doing just that.
Sometimes, I'm proud of these weaponless, misguided buggers. Because sometimes they get it 100% bang-on right.
We're at over 30 confirmed dead, now - 33 is the official count, but also officially expected to rise.
The current tally is 3 Tube stations bombed and one bus blown up. Those are the current confirmed detonations. My eternal thanks to Sky News for "confirming" six tube stations and four buses blown up early during the events. The slack-jawed, drooling, ratings-scrabbling MORONS that they are.
My apologies, it's been a long day. England's a small country, with a high population density, and most of my friends and cow-orkers are in London. I rolled less than 4 on my d20, or I'd have been involved with it today. Lucky, lucky me.
Long story short - in a free country, there's bugger-all you can do to stop this sort of attack. This sort of cowardly, pathetic, back-stabbing, drunk-rolling sodding attack. I'm really lucky - all that's affected me personally is a friend of a friend's given birth 36 weeks early and that friend-of-a-friend's husband doesn't have legs any more.
There are a lot of people worse off. Some mothers and fathers won't be coming home tonight. Some children won't be coming home. And they're of every race, colour, creed and belief.
It is profoundly upsetting to think that anyone honestly believes that this sort of attack will further any kind of cause. At all. It won't. They way it was executed was as random as cancer, and about as meaningful.
I shall be strapping my laptop to my back tomorrow, and going to work as normal. As will all my friends, and my co-workers. Some of us a bit singed. Some of us are a lot worse off. Some of the people I know have been flooding to hospitals as part of emergency mobilisation programmes, some just because they know nursing, be is maxillio-facial or wetnursing, to volunteer their support.
The one thing a free country can say in a situation like this is "To hell with you. Business as usual."
To their credit, it looks like London will be doing just that.
Sometimes, I'm proud of these weaponless, misguided buggers. Because sometimes they get it 100% bang-on right.