Best Fighting Pistol
- Thread starter Sulaco
- Start date
To start I agree with basically all of your points and I think they're well made. What I quoted above is a real concern and would likely see yourself face trial or get shot by a responding officer. What I will say though is that not shooting because of fear of hitting a bystander is a mixed bag. In not shooting in a mass shooting type scenario you mostly know other people are going to get killed. So could you engaging in the fight lead to deaths? Absolutely, and it's important to consider that. But not engaging in the fight will lead to more deaths. It's a terrible situation.
For anyone in the Texas or NH regions there is an instructor named Todd Rassa that does a multi-day course on Active Shooter Response for The Concerned Citizen. There is an optional day of force on force with sims/UTM. This is one of the best courses I have ever taken.
A Glock 19 size of gun (I'm a CZ nerd so P07 all day baby!) with a red dot sight. Your scenario requires total situational awareness, rapid transitions and probably distance shots. The RDS allows all that with both eyes open.
But I sure wouldn't want to be stuck with a little LCP in that auditorium.
But I sure wouldn't want to be stuck with a little LCP in that auditorium.
I agree with the bold, absolutely... but I also agree with the rest of this statement. Much discussion has been spent on hitting innocent bystanders when engaging mass shooters. It absolutely is an important consideration, however there are a lot of factors in play. If you are the only armed resistance, and you can engage a shooter before he has taken more than a handful of lives, will you be better off to just stop the shooter? If he has killed 3 people randomly already, in a crowded theater, and heaven forbid you did hit an innocent bystander by engaging, did you still save many more lives? Or has the shooter already engaged all that he intends to? Are there screaming people running in the background, or have they already sought cover? A lot of questions, and there are no easy answers. But... still the situation could exist that taking a high risk shot could still have benefits that outweigh the risks. Not a discussion to be had lightly, but still a discussion that I believe every good person who chooses to carry a firearm for defense of self/others should have internally. And be prepared to accept any potential negative consequences.
In the context of the OP's question, to me a "fighting pistol" is not a pocket carry, single stack .380. I would want at least 9mm, full length grip, and preferably a large capacity. A Glock 19 or CZ P07 can be concealed if you're willing to dress around the gun. Those would be my choices personally.
When I first started carrying, I looked at a Glock 19 (the most common CCW pistol out there) and thought "You gotta be kidding me!!!"
I had a .380 pocket pistol for about a year. I was a really good shot with it out to about 15'. On a square range. Slow fire. I tried running it in a pistol class once. That convinced me I"d never learn to be effective with a gun the size of a deck of cards and basically no sights.
Over time I discovered the magic of appendix carry (let the flaming begin!
) in dedicated holsters made for max concealment. Now my "MDC" (that's "most-days carry") is a CZ P07, which I can conceal easily in an untucked shirt of most styles. I'm considering getting something much smaller for times when I have to be in dress clothes, or with a tucked in shirt. For now, almost any scenario in which I'd need to dress that way also involves being in places where I can't carry anyway, so it hasn't been an issue. I'm 5'10" and 180 lb, and a CZ P07 is no trick to conceal.
I guess this is off the topic, but my lesson was that one does not have to carry a small gun to conceal it well.
Spats McGee
Administrator
This one is tougher for me now than it used to be. For years, I'd have chosen my G19, hands down, almost no questions asked. But just recently, I dusted off my 1911 and shot it better than I've ever shot my G19. So while I'd probably still choose the G19 due to capacity and weight, the question isn't as clear-cut as I thought it was.
It's easy to say this or that is going to be best for any given scenario. No one knows what they are going to end up involved in on any given day. Many will be equipped for such an encounter based off of what they carry on a daily basis, but many will not. I'm a good example. I've already stated that my hi-cap 9mm would be my best defense in a wide open active shooter situation. I know the micro 380 is not the right tool for the job. Carrying is a journey and I have not yet reached my destination. Not sure if I ever will. It is a work in progress. If you typically carry the best tool for this job, then good for you. You are better prepared for battle than I. If you know at the start of your day that you will face off against an active shooter, maybe you should change your plans. Otherwise, whatever you carry is what you have to work with.
There are so many handguns you can fight with that we can't list them all.
But a "fighting pistol" is a wrong concept.
There are fighting men and women, not fighting pistols. Any gun you fight with is your "fighting pistol".
Training in combative tactics is the real key, and in a fight only about 2% is about shooting. 98% is about movement and communications.
Gunfighting is 98% fight and 2% gun.
Concentrate on on how to move, on situational awareness and positioning yourself for an advantage. Any gun will do if you do your parts correctly. Some guns are far better for the job than others, but a single shot flintlock in the hands of a man who really knows how to fight and move will usually win against the best high speed low drag supper pistol if's carrier doesn't get to use it, because he gets out maneuvered.
But a "fighting pistol" is a wrong concept.
There are fighting men and women, not fighting pistols. Any gun you fight with is your "fighting pistol".
Training in combative tactics is the real key, and in a fight only about 2% is about shooting. 98% is about movement and communications.
Gunfighting is 98% fight and 2% gun.
Concentrate on on how to move, on situational awareness and positioning yourself for an advantage. Any gun will do if you do your parts correctly. Some guns are far better for the job than others, but a single shot flintlock in the hands of a man who really knows how to fight and move will usually win against the best high speed low drag supper pistol if's carrier doesn't get to use it, because he gets out maneuvered.
I'm there with you. I am much better with my 1911 than with a Glock... however my P07 is kind of the best of both worlds. I shoot it VERY well, it has a larger capacity, and is not as heavy as a 1911. It is not much more difficult to conceal a 1911, especially a commander sized one, than a G19 or CZ P07 IMO. Obviously, the lighter pistol is slightly more comfortable for all day carry.
stephen426
New member
I agree that doing nothing can lead to more more deaths, but it is a highly personal decision to risk taking a bystander's life. I certainly do not want people to go into "paralysis mode" and fail to act, but make sure that you are helping the situation rather than making it worse.
This may sound selfish, but my actions would probably also change if I was with my family (young kids) compared to if I was by myself. I would be less likely to engage unnecessarily with my family, as that would most likely draw fire in my direction. I would try and get them to safety and engage only if being engaged.
Like I said, very personal decision and I hope that none of us will ever have to make that decision. If you carry, be sure to decide now, as failure to act could get you killed. Practice often and try and join practical shooting clubs which allow drawing from holster, rapid fire, engaging multiple targets, shooting on the move (forward, backward, lateral), rapid reloads, and other drills. Punching pretty groups in paper is just the very tip of the iceberg.
This may sound selfish, but my actions would probably also change if I was with my family (young kids) compared to if I was by myself. I would be less likely to engage unnecessarily with my family, as that would most likely draw fire in my direction. I would try and get them to safety and engage only if being engaged.
Like I said, very personal decision and I hope that none of us will ever have to make that decision. If you carry, be sure to decide now, as failure to act could get you killed. Practice often and try and join practical shooting clubs which allow drawing from holster, rapid fire, engaging multiple targets, shooting on the move (forward, backward, lateral), rapid reloads, and other drills. Punching pretty groups in paper is just the very tip of the iceberg.
lee n. field
New member
My thoughts?
No one's paying me to be an armed guard or respond to this. Move diagonally to the crowd's movement, exit stage left at first opportunity. Assuming I'd be there in the first place. (I don't care for mass rally type events.)
Past that you get into the typical Internet gunboard arguments. This caliber, that caliber, "all the bulletses" vs. "POWER!", trying to make the best of a marginal tool.
Your choice of weapons is not going to matter nearly as much as your choice of tactics. There are a number of factors to be considered that all work towards demanding you advance. Your attackers likely outgun you as they are likely to have long guns. Your attackers are likely not concerned about collateral damage. Your attackers may be wearing body armor as they are in charge of the when and where of the attack.
I think you are going to be forced to use tactics demonstrated in the Curtis Culwell Center attack. Close the distance as much as possible and when you do start firing continue to fire while advancing on your target. Trading shots ultimately allows the superiority of the attackers equipment to overcome any advantage you MAY have in skill.
Glock 19, 1911, whatever revolver, 9MM, 10MM, 357 Sig, .40, 357 Mag, .44 - whatever. Not drastically vital compared to how you react and act.
I think you are going to be forced to use tactics demonstrated in the Curtis Culwell Center attack. Close the distance as much as possible and when you do start firing continue to fire while advancing on your target. Trading shots ultimately allows the superiority of the attackers equipment to overcome any advantage you MAY have in skill.
Glock 19, 1911, whatever revolver, 9MM, 10MM, 357 Sig, .40, 357 Mag, .44 - whatever. Not drastically vital compared to how you react and act.
I'm struggling with an answer to this question. My first answer would be "Glock 26" because that is what I carry most frequently, by a considerable margin, and because I have had it for quite a while, have practiced with it, and can shoot it with good accuracy. I have other pistols that are bigger, with a longer sight radius, which in theory would be marginally better if I knew in advance that I was going to be facing that exact scenario. But then one has to ask, if one knew for certain that he was facing such a scenario, why would he choose a pistol over a rifle?
The only straight answer to the question as posed, at least to me, is that familiarity, practice, and the resulting accuracy has to trump other considerations.
The only straight answer to the question as posed, at least to me, is that familiarity, practice, and the resulting accuracy has to trump other considerations.
I'm going to say "Sig X-Five", since mine holds 20 rounds and is extremely accurate. For distance shooting, there is hardly anything I can think of that can beat it. Glocks, even competition Glocks, don't come close.
Can I carry it? Not really, but that wasn't the question.
Can I carry it? Not really, but that wasn't the question.
Amen. If I'm in that situation I want the pistol I carry daily and shoot best . That decision is based on my experience. What's best for anyone else is subjective. Find a handgun that you're comfortable with and use it until you can use it instinctively and well. That is the gun I want in your scenario...or any other where a concealed carry handgun is your only option.