Best .357 Mag/.38Spl+P for a 2" snub?

[Manco]

For all those advocating FBI loads or .357mag for PD, i will now use physics to disprove this ignorance.

I didn't realize that physics included bullet wounding factors and biology....

The FBI needs/may need to get through all kinds of barriers w/ bullet, such as, but not limited to:
- car doors
- windows
- house doors

Above are the only reasons whatsoever one would ever wish to carry non hollow point 158gr bullets. For penetration through hard, solid objects.

That's nice, but the .38 Special FBI load does have a hollow-point bullet (as does their current .40 S&W load, for that matter)--LSWCHP stands for "lead semi-wadcutter hollow-point."

Unless you firingline.com guys and gals spend your nights on street corners expecting drive-bye attacks this is not the recommended round.

You never know when you may need to penetrate light cover.

kinetic energy = mass * velocity^2

As you can see velocity is much more important than mass with respect to the delivery of energy into one's target. And all things the same, the lighter the bullet- the more velocity.

That's nice too, but physics doesn't tell us what the value of energy is in relation to other wounding factors. I think that the amount of energy in any .38 Special round is so small that it barely does any damage outside of direct contact with the bullet, making any differences between loads negligible. Penetration is far more important, and in physical terms it is momentum that largely enables penetration, with the greater inertia of heavier bullets playing a secondary role in increasing penetration potential (implying that mass and velocity are not entirely equal, despite the fact that both are directly proportional to momentum in a purely mathematical sense). Energy alone tells us nothing, and even momentum is only one of a number of parameters (along with bullet design, construction, and materials, et al.) that determine how a bullet will wound.

Today's modern hollow points are made for/to limit penetration in soft targets as one will never fully know what is behind one's target in a PD situation.

I doubt it because statistically most shots will be misses anyway. It looks to me like they're trying to maximize expansion--which is useful for wounding but even more useful for marketing--while meeting some minimum penetration requirement, which is usually around 12", although it can vary in order to meet the requirements or preferences of different customers.

 

[Deaf Smith]

stevie,

I don't know about the 'non+p' stuff but the .38 Spl Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWHP load out of my 2 inch M64 chronos at 1000 fps (just as they say it does) and out of my 2 3/4 Speed Six they get 1100 fps!

I have no doubt when BB says their non+p stuff gets 850 fps from a 2 inch then it gets 850!

Soon I'll have some 158gr JHP .357s from Buffalo Bore and I'll chrono those out of my 3 inch GP100!

Deaf

 

[Wrangler5]

FWIW, I've chrono'd Speer 135g short barrel Gold Dots out of my S&W 49 at 904fps. I've bought these bullets to reload my own practice rounds, and the fastest I've ever been able to push them is 843fps (using Speer's published +P max load for Power Pistol) and 833fps (using AA#5) out of the same gun over the same chrono screens at the same distance. These are the powders Speer shows as providing the highest velocity at their recommended maximum charge weights.

So Speer is clearly using something other than these powders in their factory loads. And Speer says these bullets need 860fps to expand fully, so obviously I'm going to have to find some other way to speed 'em up if I want to get over that threshhold, even if I can't eventually get to full factory speed.

 

[ipscchef]

MANCO

MANCO, thank you for correcting some of Mashieniblicks Bulls...., umm, errr, I mean erroneous and incorrect assumptions. It sounds like he just got a "C" in his physics class and wants to show everyone what a genious he is.
I have been carrying a 340pd for a while now. I have worked up a load that sends a 125gr. Hornady XTP out at just about 1155fps., give or take.

I would like to switch to a small 1911 frame, but do not haqve the funds to do so right now, and the current load is giving me more and more pain in my old, very arthritic hands. so I am looking at duplicating the "FBI Load" for my SD needs. I do practice with my full SD loads, I think that is the moast sensible way to be proficient with your weapon.

And yes, I have lost most of the use of my legs although I am only 53, even turning around to get away is a big deal for me. So I want to be able to stop the aggression immediately if it happens, and I think the 158gr. SWCHP, the HP at the end does mean Hollow Point there, MashieN, may be just the ticket.

BTW, MashieNiblic, I have been savagely attacked four times in my life, once in D.C. where I grew up, once in New Orelans, once in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and once in the middle of nowhere in the high desert plains of Northern Arizona. When attacked in D.C., and New Olreans, where I was not allowed to defend myself, I suffered several different wounds when they beat me, but during the other two attacks, I was armed, and was able escape unharmed. I am sure that was just a coincidence, huh. At no time was I just "hanging out on a corner, or whatever" I guess I do not
fit into your little sqiggley line and .001% thingy.
One more thing, you are actualy going to come here and defintivley state that you have the final answer to the velocity vs. mass arguement. That IS a hoot

That is all

William Henderson

 

[Sarge]

I've lost count of the people I've put on my ignore list over one or two stupid posts.

Glad you weathered all that in one piece Mr. Henderson. You get grit points from this corner.

Hosses, the Federal load was the old, standard 125 grain magnum HP they have been making for decades and yes, they'll still expand pretty good at 1300 fps depending of course on what they hit. As to recoil, they do buck & beller some but I had no trouble qualifying DA to 25 yards with them in a SP-101.

 

[MashieNiblick]

@ Hosses

In reply to:
If you're carrying a full sized .357 in an urban setting, then I'd agree that a .357 magnum load is probably a bit much. However, we're talking about snub nosed .357's here. A lot of velocity is lost.

i know .38 special + p will more than adequately accomplish the job at hand, so why worry about more power and the potential for overpenetration and inadvertant baby killing?

.38 special + p in upper (and probably mid to lower as well) torso will do more than stop any human.

 

[MashieNiblick]

@ Manco

In reply to:
I didn't realize that physics included bullet wounding factors and biology....

the concept of kinetic energy was first described in its modern sense in 1829 by Gustave-Gaspard Coriolis

we are talking about stopping power here and not vital organ damage and such, correct, Sir?


In Reply to:
That's nice, but the .38 Special FBI load does have a hollow-point bullet (as does their current .40 S&W load, for that matter)--LSWCHP stands for "lead semi-wadcutter hollow-point."

You are correct with regards to the hollow point acronym, thank you for correcting my ignorance.

I will change my statement to:
The only reason one would want to carry a 158gr .38 special + p round would be if it were to be a frequent or occasional occurence in one's line of work to for one to need to shoot through hard, solid objects such as but not limited to:
- car doors
- windows
- walls


In Reply to:
You never know when you may need to penetrate light cover.

Like what in short range with a snubby that a 110gr bullet couldn't handle?


In Reply to:
That's nice too, but physics doesn't tell us what the value of energy is in relation to other wounding factors. I think that the amount of energy in any .38 Special round is so small that it barely does any damage outside of direct contact with the bullet, making any differences between loads negligible. Penetration is far more important, and in physical terms it is momentum that largely enables penetration, with the greater inertia of heavier bullets playing a secondary role in increasing penetration potential (implying that mass and velocity are not entirely equal, despite the fact that both are directly proportional to momentum in a purely mathematical sense). Energy alone tells us nothing, and even momentum is only one of a number of parameters (along with bullet design, construction, and materials, et al.) that determine how a bullet will wound.

If one gets hit in the torso by a .38 special + p round he will do more than go down no matter the bullet weight.

And there's a good chance the round may overpenetrate the target. Have you looked at some good gel testing recently? 13" is enough to get through my fat ass and 1" into the baby being held behind me. . .

We are talking about optimal bullet engineering for personal defense.

If we mis-hit- thank goodness it will probably be enough to stop the perp, and the Fiocchi 110gr round i was speaking of would impart more energy into the perp in a mis-hit, therefore increasing the chances of an off center situation stoppage.


In Reply to:
I doubt it because statistically most shots will be misses anyway. It looks to me like they're trying to maximize expansion--which is useful for wounding but even more useful for marketing--while meeting some minimum penetration requirement, which is usually around 12", although it can vary in order to meet the requirements or preferences of different customers.

More velocity = greater energy
Maximized expansion = limited penetration = less baby killing (in the long run)

 

[chupps]

"While both the Speer and FBI loadings are excellent, if you're using a lightweight gun I think I might gravitate a bit more towards the Speer as jacketed bullets seem to resist jumping crimp more than lead ones do."

- This is why I decided against the Buffalo Bore offering. As per the manual for my 442, I loaded five rounds of the cartridge I was considering, fired four, and removed the last round to check for crimp jumping. The BB had slipped slightly forward. It was explained to me that lead bullets are more slick than jacketed bullets. Speer Gold Dot worked just fine, so that is what I carry.

 

[ThomasT]

.357mag is overkill, and you may hit a baby behind your ~0.001% chance of ever encountering a self defense situation. Moreover, your followup shots will be less rapid and less accurate.

If my chances of needing to use a gun to defend myself are so miniscule then the off chance of a woman holding a baby and standing behind the BG when I fire my gun must be monumental. Maybe Steven Hawkins could do the math on the odds of it happening but I can't. You seem to have a lot of babies in your life.

I have a steel framed 21oz snub in 38 and I do like the 158gr hollow point lead bullet. If using a lightweight allow gun I would use the lighter 130gr or less loads.

I bought a Taurus 85 in stainless steel from a friend that wanted a light weight 38. He bought a Taurus model 85UL at the gunshow. We both went shooting that afternoon and used my 158gr reloads with lead bullets. You should have seen the look on his face after the first cylinder full. He couldn't believe the difference in recoil between the two guns. He later sold the ultra light gun. And the rat didn't say a thing to me about wanting to sell it either. I would have bought it.

 

[MashieNiblick]

ratshooter,

your 158gr loads should be more than sufficient, and not overpenetrate a very unlikely human target due to their slower velocities, however if you just wing a perp the chances of stopping the situation without end of life decrease as you will not be transmitting as much energy into the target with said round.

now if you're in the FBI or LE by all means carry such rounds as you never know when you may have to go through hard, solid objects.

i was speaking solely of optimal ammunition for average joe self defense.

 

[ThomasT]

Hello Mash. The 158gr loads I carry are the ones I loaded myself. They have plenty of power and get a little over 900fps from my Taurus snubby. I like these loads and after reading "The Snubby Revolver" and how effective they were in actual shootings that was good enough for me. But like I said I don't think I would care to use them in a light weight gun. In a light weight gun I would use a Hornady 110 XTP because that hollow point will hold together a little better than some of the other HP bullets you can buy in that weight.

Ross Seyfried told about using a snub 38 to finish wounded elk. He choose CCI Gold Dots and found them to be way too soft and said they went about 1/4" into the elk and flattened out against the skull. He switched to hard cast 158gr SWC bullets and a hot powder charge and stated the bullets easily penetrated the elks skull. I like penetration.

I did shoot some hot 357 loads from a friends SP101 and while not pleasant they were not uncontrollable. I actully shot a pretty good group with them double action. I have shot double action so much that I rarely ever shoot a revolver single action. It never occurs to me.

 

[MashieNiblick]

okay, then 158gr, 900fps- you are risking overpenetration

the baby response was emotional i realize, real nonetheless, but there are in fact infinite possibilities for secondary overpenetration wounds and possible death

no law against such ammo, just realize you may be held liable if overpenetration were to ever occur

if you are okay with it, so am i- i was just deriving the optimal round for nominal self defense situations

 

[MashieNiblick]

one more thing, rs,

a 110gr power load has about the same kick (read energy) as your 158 reload (even from a heavy frame), risks overpenetration as well, but here's an important (and often overlooked) additional benefit.

my load will be much louder (read scarier) with more bystander or other perp wind sucking potential.



best regards,
MN

 

[Sarge]

The fear of over-penetration is a misconception, which was created back when law enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public resistance to the use of hollowpoint ammunition. In the process, we began to believe it ourselves. First, our lawyers are unaware of any sucessful legal action resulting from the injury of a bystander due to a round over-penetrating the subject. We are aware of numerous incidents of Agents/officers being killed because their round did not penetrate enough (Grogan and Dove, for example). Further, if you examine shooting statistics you will see that officers hit the subject somewhere around 20-30% of the time. Thus 70-80% of shots fired never hit their intended target, and nobody ever worries about them – only the ones that might “over-penetrate” the bad guy. Third, as our testing shows, even the most frangible bullets designed specifically for shallow penetration will plug up when striking wood or wallboard and then penetrate like full metal jacket ammunition. We are aware of successful legal actions where an innocent party has been struck by a shot passing through a wall, but as we have proven, ALL of them will do that.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

 

[michael t]

my load will be much louder (read scarier) with more bystander or other perp wind sucking potential.

MashieNiblick , please enlighten all of us . As to what training you have had Military actual combat or SF training , Police, Gun training sites , Mall ninja classes .
Where does this vast knowledge of yours come from .
That the sound of a Ruger revolver ,Cocking ,will stop the BG.
Your remove one round of a loaded revolver and dry fire firing pin check . Do you look down barrel when you do this or hold looking in from side.
If one gets hit in the torso by a .38 special + p round he will do more than go down no matter the bullet weight.
38 special + p in upper (and probably mid to lower as well) torso will do more than stop any human. (Really!!!! what else will it do )
The above quote at top and all the other wisdom you have brought forth in last couple days is really enlightening .
You know ALL OF THE ANSWERS EXCEPT WHAT 45 G.A.P. MEANS
My self I think you just need to go and get some proper training and around here might want to read more and post less.
Many here ,in fact in you case. I would say majority of members have more knowledge and experience than you can hope to have for many years .
Some times better to keep mouth shut and let people think your dumb Rather than open it and prover them right.

Sorry people But I have read all his other posts and had enough of his miss information.

 

[ThomasT]

Thank you Sarge for posting that. I have never seen it before but for years have wondered about that very thing.

If you buy the nastiest hollow point designed to do the most damage in a short amout of distance and you completely miss your intended target now you have just shot an innocent person with the best killer bullet you could find. Maybe a baby to boot. (thats for mashieNiblick)

I don't by in to the reason we buy hollow points is to minimize penetration. We do it for the same reason hunters use soft points on deer. They just kill better. I use what I use because I want to blow the biggest hole in the BG I can with whatever I am using.

And how do you know how one round is louder than the other? My dad shot at a guy with a 22 revolver. One on each side of his head to run him off. The guy told the police that he heard the bullets go by his ears but didn't say anything about how loud the bang was with a gun fired 3 feet from his face.

And Michael T I can't fogure out mash's sig line either.

 

[Sarge]

You're welcome, Rat. the part I should have bold-typed is ;

The fear of over-penetration is a misconception, which was created back when law enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public resistance to the use of hollowpoint ammunition. In the process, we began to believe it ourselves.

Generally, my standard is that my carry load must be able to do significant damage to the vertebral column/spine on a frontal shot; or at the least, punch through muscular arms and drive on into the chest to the major organs. Such a load will routinely exit, or so you would think.

But in recent history I've had to shoot two vicious dogs and one injured deer with .40/165 grain Golden Sabers or Federal HST, and some of that shooting was pouring them on at spitting distance. Critter weight was roughly 105-120 pounds in all cases and they were all running either directly at me or at 90 degrees crossing. I fired 7 shots total, didn't miss and one round (across the chest) exited.

No babies were killed in the making of this documentary.

 

[ThomasT]

No babies were killed in the making of this documentary.

I don't care who you are, thats funny.

 

[langenc]

As to shooting w/out hearing protection-DONT even for a LITTLE 22..

I read about a fellow that shot a 357 in a small apt. He said the shot, vibrated/jarred?? pictures right off the wall!!

What about the ears of those present?? yuk.

 

[Laz]

Some people think an English Bulldog looks great... many more people can't tell one end from the other, even by smell.

ratshooter, I have to admit that I do understand your signature line perfectly well.