Being a Sig owner made me appreciate Glocks

[Walt Sherrill]

But in the age of extended mag releases, even extended extended mag releases, that seems a bit passe. People want magical speed, even if it means using a mag release that might eject a mag when holstering (something I have personally seen ).

An extended mag release CAN be a problem; I'm not a big fan of EXTENDED mag releases -- just mag releases that are easily accessed, work cleanly, but which require conscious action by the shooter. (If your holster isn't just right, and you've got an extended release, you COULD have a problem when holstering -- particularly if the release is EASILY depressed.)

The only guns that I've owned that had factory Extended Mag Releases were a Glock 34 and 35, a custom AT-84s, and a CZ-85 Combat -- but none of those were extended so far as to be a problem with the holsters I owned. (In fact, although CZ claims the 85 Combat mag release is "extended" it was hard to see why they make that claim.)

The bigger issue, for me, is WHERE the mag release is located, and how precisely it works without being accidentally activated. On some of my guns, a quick slide of the thumb does the job -- and there's no risk that the release will be pressed inadvertently or when holstering -- it takes more than just a light press.

 

[AK103K]

People want magical speed, even if it means using a mag release that might eject a mag when holstering (something I have personally seen ).

I think the speed thing is more a by product of the games than anything else. As are a lot of the supposedly "needed" accessories.

As far as the ejecting mag thing, Ive seen it personally too, and unfortunately, it was my gun that was doing it.

My P7M13 had a nasty habit of doing it on a regular basis, more so when riding in the car than actually holstering, but it happened a couple of times when it was in the holster and I bumped into things.

More often than not, Id find the mag that was in the gun, either on the seat or clattering to the ground when I got out of the car. Seems the seat belt liked to rub the mag release. Unfortunately, at the time, there were only a couple of holster makers making holsters for them, and neither addressed the ambi mag release the HK had. The fact they were a "lever" type safety, rather than a "push" type, just aggravated things.

 

[TunnelRat]

The fact they were a "lever" type safety, rather than a "push" type, just aggravated things.

The Crossbreed holsters I own cover the levers on my HKs so I don't have that problem. In a way I like the lever because I can retract the pistol so far and release the magazine without completely removing the gun. That and it's naturally ambi, though there are button pistols (XD) that allow the same.

I get what folks are saying about accessing the magazine quickly, my comment is just that I've seen people take it too far (like anything).

 

[mnoirot64]

Okay. I'm a newbie on this forum. I've owned more pistols than I can count. Those which I haven't owned I've shot while being a RSO at my range. Currently I own four SIGs - two of which have decocking levers - a P229R and a P220R. I have no issue with a decocker and am very comfortable with them. I have shot a lot of Glocks and would never own one. Not because I'm a SIG guy, but because I can't shoot a striker fired pistol worth a darn.

 

[dgludwig]

A Sig chambers a round the same way, so again why would you decock the sig unless it's going to leave your hand?

After my agency transitioned from revolvers to semi-auto pistols (Third Generation Smiths, in my case), our training required us to decock and restore the pistol to off-safe (down and up, because the decocker and safety are integrated with the same lever) after every firing sequence. This training protocol keeps the pistol in an off-safe, da firing mode, while still being held in an "at ready" stance, after an officer may have just survived a gunfight but the potential of involvement in continued combat is still imminent. The rationale for this training regimen being that an adrenaline-charged officer has his finger positioned over the more longer and heavier da pull rather than poised over the much shorter and lighter sa trigger mode, thus posing less of a chance for a nd. Of course, this practice also helps insure that the pistol is returned to the holster while decocked.

 

[Brotherbadger]

I think Will Beararms was bored and just wanted to throw a rock at the wasp's nest.

Just time for the Bimonthly "My favorite platform/make/model is better than your favorite platform/make/model" thread. Two or three people will get into a tizzy about it, it will die down and then in about 6-8 weeks it will start up all over again.

 

[Jim567]

I feel so off balance and confused
I like both Sigs and Glocks.
It must be some sort of Whishy Washy character flaw.
I lean slightly toward the Sigs as for me, in my situation, and being raised with a hammer weapon, I feel safer.
Love the Glocks low bore axis.

 

[mavracer]

After my agency transitioned from revolvers to semi-auto pistols (Third Generation Smiths, in my case), our training required us to decock and restore the pistol to off-safe (down and up, because the decocker and safety are integrated with the same lever) after every firing sequence. This training protocol keeps the pistol in an off-safe, da firing mode, while still being held in an "at ready" stance, after an officer may have just survived a gunfight but the potential of involvement in continued combat is still imminent. The rationale for this training regimen being that an adrenaline-charged officer has his finger positioned over the more longer and heavier da pull rather than poised over the much shorter and lighter sa trigger mode, thus posing less of a chance for a nd. Of course, this practice also helps insure that the pistol is returned to the holster while decocked.

And then when you transitioned to Glocks the training changed right? So it's a training issue right? It's was because the powers that be didn't feel you're competent enough to have a gun with a light trigger in your hand until Glock gives guns to LE. Now they have to train the masses to keep their booger hook off the bang switch, which of course should have been done all along.
So instead of taking my quote out of context answer my original question.

If you're comfortable using a Glock, why would you need to decock a Sig unless the gun was going to leave your hand?

 

[AK103K]

If you're comfortable using a Glock, why would you need to decock a Sig unless the gun was going to leave your hand?

Its simply a matter of safety protocol with the SIG. Its the guns manual of arms, as it is with any DA gun. If the gun has been fired, you decock at the first "safe" opportunity to do so, and put it back in the "ready" position.

And youre right, it is just a training issue. What ever you choose, or are told to carry/use, you train with it to thoroughly learn it, and you do so until you can safely handle it without conscious thought.

 

[mavracer]

Its simply a matter of safety protocol with the SIG. Its the guns manual of arms, as it is with any DA gun. If the gun has been fired, you decock at the first "safe" opportunity to do so, and put it back in the "ready" position.

So you have to because you can? How is a cocked Sig not in the "ready" position?

 

[AK103K]

So you have to because you can?

No, because its the prudent and safe thing to do.

How is a cocked Sig not in the "ready" position?

It is if you intend to shoot again immediately, its not if you stop. When "safe" to do so, you decock. That puts the gun in the condition it came out of the holster, and in the condition you normally expect the gun to be when its handled. Unless its been fired, it wont be in SA.

Again, the issue with DA guns is, they have more than one mode of operation, and you need to establish in training, how the gun will "always" be manipulated, safely, so that under stress, it will be done without thought.

Its not that SA is unsafe, its not, if thats how you trained to handle the gun. Its just not as safe, with a DA gun, if you arent willing to follow protocol, and learn to make it safer.

 

[mavracer]

No, because its the prudent and safe thing to do.

Then you obviously agree that a Glock is an unsafe design.

You can't have it both ways.

Its just not as safe, with a DA gun, if you arent willing to follow protocol, and learn to make it safer.

Keep your finger off the trigger until target is identafied is safe with a Glock but somehow unsafe with a Sig.

 

[45_auto]

If you're comfortable using a Glock, why would you need to decock a Sig unless the gun was going to leave your hand?

Because a DA/SA action (Sig) that has not been decocked is in single action mode. In other words, a short, light trigger pull will fire the weapon as opposed to the Glock "safe action" long, heavy trigger pull that is required.

Same reason that you re-apply the safety on a 1911 or decock a single action revolver if there's no reason to use it immediately.

 

[AK103K]

Then you obviously agree that a Glock is an unsafe design.

You can't have it both ways.

You can have it both ways, if youre practiced with what it is youre using.

Theres nothing wrong with the Glocks. Theres nothing wrong with the SIG's. Ive carried both on a daily basis, and have shot both extensively. Im also perfectly comfortable with either

They each have their own manual of arms, and a proper way with how you handle them. Nothing magical about it. Nothing scary about it, as long as you are familiar with the guns, and what needs to be done to be safe with them.

Keeping your finger out of the trigger is a given with any of them. What happens when you put your finger in the trigger is where the difference is. I know youre not supposed to put your finger in the trigger until you are ready to shoot, but you know how things go in the real world, and things usually arent that black and white. There are times your going to be on the trigger when by the rules, you shouldnt be, and thats just the way it is. What may happen when that occurs, is the crux of whats being addressed here, and how to reduce the likelihood, of the gun going off unintentionally if and when it occurs.

General handling and holstering are also issues.

With the Glock, its pretty simple, and what you do, is always the same.

With the SIG, it isnt, and that can be a problem. The point of decocking, is to put the gun back in its "normal" mode, so there is less confusion and chance of an error. The gun is meant to be fired DA on the first shot, and normally it is, be it from a holster or ready position. Successive shots SA are fine and easy, but when you stop, the gun should be decocked, and placed back into its "normal" mode. Normally, youre not expecting to fire the first shot, from SA.

The difference here is simply what happens when you go to put your finger in the trigger and what youre expecting when you do. If youre conditioned to fire that first round DA, and you start your finger into the trigger expecting that, and the gun is in SA, what do you suppose is likely to happen?

 

[TunnelRat]

Keep your finger off the trigger until target is identafied is safe with a Glock but somehow unsafe with a Sig.

Just come out and say what it is you're trying to say instead of dancing around the issue.

Are you saying you consider Glocks unsafe?

 

[jr24]

I've liked my SIG's fine over the years, only have the p220 left (which isn't leaving ever) and I'd like to get a 229 in the future, probably in 9mm.

That said, I always get annoyed with where in the pull the triggers break, it always feels too far back for me. That and I don't love the whole DA/SA thing. I'd like to try the DAK trigger system some time, might be my cup of tea.

My Ruger SR series (and Glock) have triggers I am more comfortable with, so I tend to shoot/carry them more if I'm not going with a SAO on a 1911 or something.

 

[mavracer]

Are you saying you consider Glocks unsafe?

It's not really what I concider safe that I'm questioning.
I'm questioning the hypocracy.

 

[TunnelRat]

I'm questioning the hypocracy.

Do you have a manual transmission on your car? If so do you put the parking break on when you stop and leave the vehicle? Do you do the same on cars with automatic transmissions? Standard operating procedures.

I don't know anyone that considers it hypocrisy. If you do personally you're free to do so, but don't take a personal belief and turn it into something that applies to anyone.

 

[mavracer]

Do you have a manual transmission on your car? If so do you put the parking break on when you stop and leave the vehicle? Do you do the same on cars with automatic transmissions? Standard operating procedures.

Standard procedure if on a hill turn downhill end of front tires into curb apply parking brake (it's not broken) and put auto in park and manual in reverse.
If it's not on a hill I usually don't bother with the parking brake.

I mean seriously do you decock your Sig every time you make a mag change?
Do you decock it evey time you move between shooting positions?
If you don't how many NDs have you had, because you always expect the first shot to be DA?
Surely this is a real problem right?

 

[mavracer]

Keeping your finger out of the trigger is a given with any of them. What happens when you put your finger in the trigger is where the difference is. I know youre not supposed to put your finger in the trigger until you are ready to shoot, but you know how things go in the real world, and things usually arent that black and white. There are times your going to be on the trigger when by the rules, you shouldnt be, and thats just the way it is. What may happen when that occurs, is the crux of whats being addressed here, and how to reduce the likelihood, of the gun going off unintentionally if and when it occurs.

If the real "crux" of the issue is that you really can't keep your finger off the trigger, then you really don't yourself believe that a Glock is a safe design right?