Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced?

Do you consider yourself a beginning, intermediate, or advanced shooter?


  • Total voters
    120
  • Poll closed .

SauerGrapes

New member
Intermediate shooter I think. Certainly not a beginner. Came to handguns late in life.

The only thing I have to compare my shooting to is local level USPSA matches.
Solid C class shooter. Hoping to move up to B this year.
Judging from what I see at our club, I'm light years ahead of 90% of the other members. OMG, I just realized how bad most of the gun owners in this country are. :eek:

Funny, I'm a C class shooter in sporting clays too.....lol.

That said, I just enjoy shooting. I'm too old to worry about any of it.
 

subhuman

New member
upper end of the middle myself.
been shooting over 35 years and I'm just 43 :D

I'm competent with just about anything i pick up, shoot everything right or left handed.

I can't shoot with the wizards, but if you point me toward a target at 5 yards I can empty the gun into it blindfolded :rolleyes: :D
 

Shoot

New member
I suspect this poll is as much about where we think we place as much as it is about where we actually place.

I also suspect more people would put themselves in the advanced category if it weren't for the fact that doing so would put them in the same category as the outlier elites. Plus there's a number of specialization tracks, and it might be hard to be advanced in all of them.

Me? More knowledgable and skilled than beginnner, so intermediate. Probably for forever.
 

Buzzcook

New member
I put intermediate down mostly because I started shooting about 50 years ago.

Since then I've put a lot of bullets down range and up until the mid 1990s they went pretty close to were I wanted them to. At about that time I started needing bifocals and my groups have increased in size by quite a bit.

As far as my current ability goes I'd rank myself as a beginner.
 
I consider my self a beginner. Even though I first got my to carry in 1970. I have just entered the World of Guns and Ammo this past year. Relearning old skills and new technology. Wow, what difference since I was 21. Then we had 1 or 2 choices of ammo and a couple of different wheels to use. Now, there are multiple wheels and multiple ammo choices. It took me 3 months of careful
education to rid myself of junk weapons and to get a really fine 357. Had I belonged to this forum before I would have never bought the Rossi or Taurus
Guns I bought. I would have gotten exactly what I have now a Ruger GP 100 4' 357 mag. tough choice between this and the S&W 686. I chose the Ruger and have never looked back.
Doc
 

BigJimP

New member
I'm in my mid 60's .....and trust me guys and gals / how well we shot 30 yrs ago is no standard for today for most of us ( with eye, shoulder, feet issues, etc..)...most of us are not better than we were 30 yrs ago.

Highest Class I ever got to in Sporting Clays or Skeet ...was class A ( to me Master Class would be way better than I ever was )...and they are more consistent. But I competed in my class...and won some tournaments / today I'm still a class B shooter for Sporting Clays / class C for skeet about a 92 average ( 92 - 94 out of 100 is the best I can do these days).... / sporting clays is harder to determine where you are..because every course is different so it depends on how you did against shooter that day - on that course. Skeet is a little easier to figure out...and in my opinion avg 92 -94's are about class C / Class B is 95 -96 avg / Class A is 97 -97 avg / 97-98 is ClassAA... so look at your averages for 100 targets...and evaluate...

I don't shoot handguns competitively ...except with my buddies...and I'm still in the upper Intermediate to low expert range.../ with solid Tactical Accuracy - and reasonable speed out of a holster. ( Draw and triple tap a target ...out to 8 yds ...in under 3 sec / is about a Class C competition shooter ) with 100% on target.../ Class B is about 2.75 sec / Class A is about 2.5 sec....so that is how I measure my handgun shooting...

So overall, upper Intermediate...is where I am....
 
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2ndsojourn

New member
Well, earlier I thought I was an intermediate shooter. From a lot of posts of other guys, maybe I'm back to beginner status. :eek::eek::)
 

Brotherbadger

New member
intermediate. I'm no gary michilek and I'm no longer the goober that was proud of grouping half a mag inside a 6x8 sheet of plywood at 20 yards.

Same. I am always trying to better myself, and keep finding ways to do so. I do decent groups, but I doubt I'm good enough to call myself anything other than average.
 

.45 Vet

New member
I think I'm just destined to be a beginning shooter. Every range session over the last 40 years, same thing always happens. Just as I Begin to get better, something happens and it all Begins to get worse... :eek:
 

pax

New member
At what point do we get to find out the reason for the inquiry?

That would be now. :)

A friend of mine and I were talking on the phone last week. She'd been interviewing women shooters about another topic entirely, and came across something weird: when she asked her interviewees about their shooting skills and experience with firearms, every woman she talked to identified herself as an intermediate shooter.

We thought that was weird. How could every single one of these folks be intermediate? No beginners, no advanced. Everyone in the middle.

Some of the theories we played around with included:

  • 1) A woman thing versus a man thing.
    .
  • 2) Not a real thing, just an odd blip in the stats among people she was talking to.
Looking at the poll responses here, I think we can rule out the first two possibilities. Intermediate is almost certainly over-represented and the other two categories under-represented in this mixed group of respondents. (Given the nature of the membership in a discussion forum dedicated specifically to shooting, the responses should skew toward the advanced column.)


  • 3) Non-anonymous responses and social pressure. Embarrassed to claim to be advanced, embarrassed to admit beginner, voila, everyone is intermediate.
That one is still on the table, I think. In any case, I chose to make the poll public, even though I knew it would reduce the number of responses and perhaps discourage blatant honesty, because our initial results came from people whom we knew. So I wanted to compare our initial non-anonymous results that came only from women with these non-anonymous responses from a mixed group.

Other theories that crossed my mind:


  • 4) Dunning Kruger Effect at work.
Named after Prof. David Dunning and his (at the time) grad student Justin Kruger, this describes a cognitive bias where people who are bad at a thing think of themselves as being better than they are.

The flip side of the same phenomena is that very experienced and knowledgeable people tend to think of themselves as worse than they are.

It brings up the old saw of “The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.” There's a reason old cliches exist.

The people here who've been shooting for 30 years, or who have achieved a high level of skill in some particular shooting discipline, but still consider themselves as being, at best, intermediate shooters because they know how little they can do with the gun compared to all that could be done with a gun -- that's where we see the Dunning Kruger Effect at work.


  • 5) When my friend asked some follow up questions of her people, the answers she got were along the lines of, "I can load and unload my gun, and I know how it works, and I can shoot it okay." Further probing revealed that none of her respondents had ever drawn from a holster, or shot moving targets, or timed their own reloads, or any of the other skills that a competitor or a defensive handgun instructor might expect.
That's why I steadfastly refused to define the terms for you. Speaking for myself, I see the shooting world through the lens of a self-defense mindset, and specifically through the mindset of someone who has had professional training in those particular skills. That sure as heck doesn't mean that's all there is to shooting.

Although it made the data gathering a little more sloppy, it also allowed me to see what factors people consider important or not-important when they think about their shooting abilities. Are you comparing yourself to everyone around you standing in a booth at a bench on an indoor range? Are you comparing yourself to USPSA shooters in your local club, or to the ones you see on television? What skills are you looking at as important and which ones do you disregard?

And finally, several people noticed that as the OP, I myself hadn't participated in the poll. That brings up my last theory, which I think may fill in one more piece of the puzzle of why everyone seems to be intermediate:


  • 6) If you were to ask me, I too am an intermediate shooter -- because I shoot near the middle of the pack among the people I shoot with. Never mind which skill sets we value or how we measure "intermediate"; by the shooting skills that my peer group uses, I'm near the middle of the pack.
My very, very tentative theory on this last factor is that (with obvious outliers at the very top of the game), anyone who is improving as a shooter will always consider themselves -- at best! -- as being either below average or near the middle of the pack when compared with their peers.

As far as I can tell, as soon as we decide to improve, we either find better shooters to learn from and shoot with, or we bring our current group of friends up in skill along with us as we all push each other to get better. In either case, it's rarely long before we stop comparing our skills against absolutely everyone standing in a booth on a Saturday morning, and use a different scale that's specifically matched to the people we shoot with.

There are probably more potential explanations for this, and I'd love to hear your theories. What do you think is going on here?

pax

The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” but, “That's funny...” —Isaac Asimov
 

BarryLee

New member
The people here who've been shooting for 30 years, or who have achieved a high level of skill in some particular shooting discipline, but still consider themselves as being, at best, intermediate shooters because they know how little they can do with the gun compared to all that could be done with a gun -- that's where we see the Dunning Kruger Effect at work.

I agree it does seem odd that people who send time each day discussing firearms on this forum would tend to rate themselves as intermediate. I believe some of it is humility and as you stated above the more you learn the more there is to learn.
 

RickB

New member
And, if you are a USPSA or IDPA shooter, or are involved in any shooting sport that keeps score, you don't have to really have an opinion about your abilities, since your scores, classification, or standings allow you to report a verifiable skill level.
You can take your ego, or insecurities, out of the equation.
 

1-DAB

New member
thanks for the feedback to your lab rats (that's us).

i blame also Lake Wobegon: '...where all the children are above average'

well, none of us live there, so we can't all be 'above average' like those fine children up in minnesota.

heck, you can even find videos of Jerry Miculek (sp?) practicing, lots, trying to improve. and he's pretty darn good at what he does.

sorry, no videos of me exist.

all that said, if you learn how to effectively, and safely, use a firearm, you are way ahead of the great masses that just stare at a gun and freeze, convinced it will leap across the room all on its own and cause carnage.
 

WVsig

New member
I rated myself as intermediate. I did not do it because of any sort of embarrassment public or private. I did not do it because I am a man vs being a woman. Those who know me well know that the Dunning Kruger Effect does not apply to self assessments of my skills at shooting or other endeavors. I am brutally honest about most things and approach them in an analytical and reasoned manner.

What I did was attempt to look at shooting a pistol in a holistic way. I read the original question, “Do you consider yourself a beginning, intermediate, or advanced shooter?” as pretty straight forward. My answer took into account multiple factors and considerations. I broke it down into 3 categories. Being and expert with a handgun is not just about shooting accurately any more than it is about just shooting fast. It does not just about knowing about handguns in general. It is a combination of all 3. I rated myself in each category on a scale of 1 to 10. 1 being a complete novice to 10 being a world class expert. Think of never shot a gun =1. Todd Jarrett=10.

General handgun knowledge:
You have to know your tool in order to be an advanced shooter IMHO. I know how to field strip, detail strip, and do simple repairs and modifications on most of my guns. I know how they work. I know their history. I understand the different types of actions and their effects on the gun and the shooter. I can have a meaningful conversation about most handguns. I know the trends in the industry and have shot a wide variety of guns enough so that I can speak about them in a meaningful way. I am better on Semi-autos vs revolvers. I am not a gunsmith, armourer or a gun historian but I have a well rounded knowledge. I would put my general handgun knowledge at an 8.

Accuracy:
I am not a bulleye shooter. I do 99% of my shooting offhand. I do not shoot from a rest unless I am testing a gun which I believe has accuracy problems. 90% of my shooting is done at 25 yards and under. I would say that 80% of my shooting is done at 15 or less. I can make holes that touch each other most days with most of my guns at 5-7 yards slow fired. I can keep nice tight groups out to 15 yards which IMHO on a good day is 3” groups. At 20 things expand quite a bit often doubling in size by 25 yards. I can keep it on a 8” paper plate most of the time. I can hit a steel IDPA style target measuring 12" X 20" 9 out of 10 shots at 25 yards. Once you get me past 25 yards it gets sketchy. I can hit a man sized steel target but not what I would consider consistently and I am more dependent on the gun at this range.

Now if you speed me up my accuracy goes down. If I am shooting from the draw my at speed multiple rounds a second then my groups double in size but most of the shooting I do at speed is 15 yards and under. I hit that 2/3 IDPA target 95% of the time but the groups are larger.

I would rate my accuracy at a 7 on a good day. I am better than avg but far from an expert or advanced shooter. I am nowhere near a seasoned bulleye shooter or Olympic shooter but outshoot most people see and shoot with at the range.

Speed, Action Shooting & Defensive Tactics:
This leads into the next category which is shooting at speed while on the move in gun games or defensive shooting scenarios. I do not shoot in competition. I have shot some in competition formats but in a completely informal manner. I have attended defensive handgun training and do skill drill training so that I can draw and shoot with some degree of speed and proficiency.

I can shoot reasonably well on the move. I can keep shots on target from cover etc. I am in no way advance at these techniques. At times I am downright slow. My draw is clean and mag changes are decent but not stellar. I would say I am slightly above avg. Not having somewhere to shoot where you can move, not restrained to a firing line, has historically hindered this type of training and skill development for me.

That said I can still shoot with reasonable accuracy at speed from the draw. For example I can run the “Bill Drill” 6 shots at 7 yards from the draw in about 4 seconds. This is good but not great. 3 seconds would be better. As a result I would rate myself a 7 maybe even a 6. I am going to shoot better than most people at the range but just about anyone who shoots competition on a regular basis is going to be better than me.

As a result I rate myself 7.33 to 7 on a scale of 1 to 10. I am not Bill Wilson in his day or Todd Jarrett etc… but I can shoot with some proficiency. I do not compete but if I did I would not embarrass myself too much. I think the upper end of intermediate fits me nicely. With a little work I would feel more comfortable with lower advanced.

One thing you have to consider is that the high up the food chain you move the difference between a7 moving to an 8 or a 9 moving to a 10 is very small. It is tightening groups by the smallest of margins. Lowering split times by fractions of a second. I think what you are seeing here, you might call it the Dunning Kruger Effect, is that once you reach a certain level of knowledge and skill you understand that to move from intermediate to advanced will take more time, effort and money then it took you to get from beginner to intermediate. When you start out you have no idea what a split time is. You do not know how much you don’t know but as you learn and acquire more skill your eyes are opened up to the fact that there is a world of professional shooters or semi-professional shooters who are better than most of us could ever be. It is not just in the world of shooting. It is the same in Football, chess, sailing, race car driving etc….. If you take the professional level into account anyone not doing it for a living can’t be considered a 10 IMHO so that is why I put myself where I did and maybe that is even a little too high.
 

lee n. field

New member
That would be now.

I myself hadn't participated in the poll.

I suspected something like this. And I'm not surprised if you didn't want to skew the results.

Dunning Kruger Effect

It brings up the old saw of “The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.”

I'll be 60 in (good Lord!) a couple months. This is true for everything.

I shoot handgun better than anyone I know well. But, I know that's not saying much. I don't, and most likely won't ever, compete. I plink for amusement, work on gun related personal defence skills to the extent I can, and hope I never have to use them.

There are probably more potential explanations for this, and I'd love to hear your theories. What do you think is going on here?

Multiple scales. Gun gamers have the target, and the timer and the guy that gives him his score, and the people they compete against. Target shooters have their target, and the people they compete against.

For a defensively oriented shooter, the scale is going to be completely different. "If it works, it's not wrong", and shooting per se isn't going to be the only relevant skill. And most people will never know where they are on that scale, because most will manage to simply avoid the need.
 

Sevens

New member
One thing that "seems" different about me than what I tend to see on this forum (or what I *think* I see, and/or what I think I just read...) is that I just don't remember a time -- either in the distant past or even from a 2.5 hour range session today... where my top goal was "to improve."

It happens. It has gotten me this far. It is a tangible benefit of shooting, and especially of quality shooting.

It simply hasn't ever been my goal. Since day one or earlier, I have done this because I enjoy it. Not because I wanted to get better and not because I believe I will find myself in a defensive shooting.

I love handguns, loading for them and shooting them. Love the feel of a trigger reset and the smell of burnt smokeless. Have always loved watching holes appear, steel plates fall or a golf ball go flying from a bullet.

I don't shoot to improve, it just has seemed to happen over many years and hundreds of thousands of rounds.
 
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