Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced?
- Thread starter pax
- Start date
I will take a different tact. Those that have competed in State, Regional or National matches and have finished in the top 1/3 or 1/2 or above should be ranked as Advanced. Those that have finished between ¼ and 2/3 may be considered Intermediate. Below that is beginner. This is a broad brush that could be refined, but for the purposes of this poll??
I think Pax is asking this community how they view themselves. Lots of tales, or lots of trophies and classifications?
Most folks never shoot a match and really do not know their skill level – in comparison with others - with a firearm. Lots of hunting stories and experience, or bragging, indicate something, but what? Good hunters are not necessarily good shooters.
There is a separate category. Those that compete on the battlefield, have shootouts with the enemy and survive, may never shoot a match – but are definitely not beginners.
Pax, this is your poll, speak up.
I think Pax is asking this community how they view themselves. Lots of tales, or lots of trophies and classifications?
Most folks never shoot a match and really do not know their skill level – in comparison with others - with a firearm. Lots of hunting stories and experience, or bragging, indicate something, but what? Good hunters are not necessarily good shooters.
There is a separate category. Those that compete on the battlefield, have shootouts with the enemy and survive, may never shoot a match – but are definitely not beginners.
Pax, this is your poll, speak up.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
And good shooters are not necessarily good hunters. So what? The question wasn't how we rate ourselves as hunters, it was how we rate ourselves as shooters.longspurr said:
Your grading system is highly arbitrary and based pretty much entirely on competition:
By your criteria, anyone who doesn't compete at least at the state level can't possibly be any better than a beginner.
What type of competition? Consider that a nationally-ranked bullseye shooter would probably not do well if thrown into an IDPA or IPSC competition. Conversely, Rob Leatham or Todd Jarret would probably do "okay" if thrown into a bullseye match, but most likely would not be really competitive at the top levels. Are Leatham and Jarret "advanced" shooters when competing in practical shooting competitions but suddenly revert to intermediate or beginner if entered in a bullseye event?
Is someone who can shoot the wings off a gnat at 50 yards with a .38 snub-nose Chief's Special but who has no interest in playing the "practical" shooting competition game automatically a "beginner" because he/she doesn't have any interest in playing those games?
I actually have no idea what Pax has in mind with this poll but, given what I described in an earlier post as the double-blind nature of it, I don't think it can be answered. Obviously, many participants in this thread do think it can be answered, but I submit that the responses provide absolutely no validity whatsoever, for the simple reason that each respondent made up his/her own criteria before deciding which classification he/she falls under.
For example, I read 10-96's response and I immediately thought "That there's an advanced shooter in my book." Yet he rated himself intermediate.
Have fun, y'all.
I was not going to reply to this, its the internet and we all know the "we can be anything on the internet".
But I'm going to be unflattering honest since this will go no where, it wont effect my pensions, my dogs will still love me.
I'm gonna say I'm a "Beginner", I think I have went full cycle. Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced and back to Beginner.
No one starts out as an advanced, or even intermediate. No one is a "born shooter' Hard work, training, more hard work, more training, more hard work added to life experience will get you too the advanced stage. But what goes around comes around, getting old and lazy will push you back to the Beginner stages.
I had to work my butt off when I coached the AK NG Rifle teams, staying proficient as a LE Sniper, and Sniper Instructor, and working toward my Distinguished Rifle Badge.
But I got the DR badge, I retired from both LE and the NG. I shoot for fun now, meaning I'm too lazy to put in the work required to stay proficient.
I still coach, I put on CMP GSM Clinics as a CMP Master Instructor. I still teach SD classes but I don't put in the effort and hard work required for my self.
I don't put in the hours upon hours of dry firing required to shoot off hand. I can put anyone in the perfect position, teach the fundamentals, and instruct on what needs to be done, but I can't shoot off hand for crap anymore because it all goes out the window.
I shoot a lot of action style pistol matches, USPSA, ICORE, etc, but I'm not competitive. Oh I can shoot, but I'm slow, I waddle to the next target instead of run, I'm slow in reloading, in short I suck. I can't blame it all on age, I shoot with many my age and older that do quite well.
I live the CMP Vintage Sniper matches, I do fairly well there because it doesn't take much effort laying on belly resting the gun on sand bags banging away and 300-600 yards. All you need in VS matches is a Springfield and a zero. My kind of game.
I can only blame it on being lazy, during my after match nap, I plan on getting off my tail and practicing this and that................and don't.
I have come full circle.......I'm a beginner again. I can say I'm going to do this or that, but I bet if you ask the same question next year, I'll have the same answer.
But I'm going to be unflattering honest since this will go no where, it wont effect my pensions, my dogs will still love me.
I'm gonna say I'm a "Beginner", I think I have went full cycle. Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced and back to Beginner.
No one starts out as an advanced, or even intermediate. No one is a "born shooter' Hard work, training, more hard work, more training, more hard work added to life experience will get you too the advanced stage. But what goes around comes around, getting old and lazy will push you back to the Beginner stages.
I had to work my butt off when I coached the AK NG Rifle teams, staying proficient as a LE Sniper, and Sniper Instructor, and working toward my Distinguished Rifle Badge.
But I got the DR badge, I retired from both LE and the NG. I shoot for fun now, meaning I'm too lazy to put in the work required to stay proficient.
I still coach, I put on CMP GSM Clinics as a CMP Master Instructor. I still teach SD classes but I don't put in the effort and hard work required for my self.
I don't put in the hours upon hours of dry firing required to shoot off hand. I can put anyone in the perfect position, teach the fundamentals, and instruct on what needs to be done, but I can't shoot off hand for crap anymore because it all goes out the window.
I shoot a lot of action style pistol matches, USPSA, ICORE, etc, but I'm not competitive. Oh I can shoot, but I'm slow, I waddle to the next target instead of run, I'm slow in reloading, in short I suck. I can't blame it all on age, I shoot with many my age and older that do quite well.
I live the CMP Vintage Sniper matches, I do fairly well there because it doesn't take much effort laying on belly resting the gun on sand bags banging away and 300-600 yards. All you need in VS matches is a Springfield and a zero. My kind of game.
I can only blame it on being lazy, during my after match nap, I plan on getting off my tail and practicing this and that................and don't.
I have come full circle.......I'm a beginner again. I can say I'm going to do this or that, but I bet if you ask the same question next year, I'll have the same answer.
a few short years ago I was shooting pistols a lot, got pretty good at hitting what I was shooting at, even at fairly long distances. Over the last four years I have not shot much at all, even thought about getting out because of a hand injury, non-gun related. I do more pistol shooting with my .22s now, so although I would love to say I am still an intermediate, starting over and learning to shoot left handed probably puts me in beginner again.
It is strange, how we think our lives will take a certain trajectory, how we think things will go as we expect and as they have gone. We think that as we are we will always be. it is not so, little things can make a huge difference in how we have to live our lives.
But I still will find the model 28 and 58 I want and buy them, even if I do not shoot them much. it seems the sickness that is pistol acquiring is not affected by physical limitations.
David
It is strange, how we think our lives will take a certain trajectory, how we think things will go as we expect and as they have gone. We think that as we are we will always be. it is not so, little things can make a huge difference in how we have to live our lives.
But I still will find the model 28 and 58 I want and buy them, even if I do not shoot them much. it seems the sickness that is pistol acquiring is not affected by physical limitations.
David
there have been studies done, where pollsters ask people how they are doing and the common majority answer is 'we're doing ok', and then they ask about how they neighbors are doing, and the common majority answer is 'we're worried about them, they seem to be struggling'.
point is, how you view yourself, relative to others, is highly subjective.
i'll let my targets speak for themselves. if you can shoot better, great for you, if you care to offer help, i'll listen. if you shoot worse, please don't be afraid to ask me for help. i may not know it all, but i know a few things.
point is, how you view yourself, relative to others, is highly subjective.
i'll let my targets speak for themselves. if you can shoot better, great for you, if you care to offer help, i'll listen. if you shoot worse, please don't be afraid to ask me for help. i may not know it all, but i know a few things.
Yup.
Don't want to be rude by starting a thread I'm not participating in, but I still don't want to skew the results. I can say this much, though: I am reading every post, and grateful for all of them. Lots of things to think about in what people have posted so far.
Now for phase two. I'm very, very interested in why people rank themselves where they do.
So here's the followup question: What criteria did you use when you chose your category? Why or how did you choose those factors?
pax
"What criteria did you use when you chose your category? Why or how did you choose those factors?"
i'll chime in.
i know i'm a better shot than others, but not as good as others i've met and watched.
i aim for practical accuracy. if deer hunting, can i hit the vital areas on the first shot? if shooting IDPA, can i hold zero down (this needs work). life does not give you unlimited time to make the shot like bullseye competition or like high power rifle shooting.
you must aim and decide, or you will lose your chance.
competition hones our skills, gives us an objective measure of where we stand compared to others over the same course of fire. custom guns allow us to explore the limits of technology, and some of these lessons get transferred to practical arms.
in the end, what matters is can you hit the target when it matters.
i'll chime in.
i know i'm a better shot than others, but not as good as others i've met and watched.
i aim for practical accuracy. if deer hunting, can i hit the vital areas on the first shot? if shooting IDPA, can i hold zero down (this needs work). life does not give you unlimited time to make the shot like bullseye competition or like high power rifle shooting.
you must aim and decide, or you will lose your chance.
competition hones our skills, gives us an objective measure of where we stand compared to others over the same course of fire. custom guns allow us to explore the limits of technology, and some of these lessons get transferred to practical arms.
in the end, what matters is can you hit the target when it matters.
2ndsojourn
New member
Long ago, when rifle teams were allowed in high school, I usually scored 100's. Sometimes 5x, sometimes even a 7 or 8x.
In the military, I shot expert with both a 45 and M16.
But that was a long time ago, and I don't consider myself an expert. Not anymore, anyway. And not compared to most of the competition shooters you see today. At best, I'd be considered an intermediate shooter. Once in awhile I'll have a bad range day and you'd think I was a beginner.
My shooting friends say I'm a good shooter, so overall I'd put myself in the intermediate category.
In the military, I shot expert with both a 45 and M16.
But that was a long time ago, and I don't consider myself an expert. Not anymore, anyway. And not compared to most of the competition shooters you see today. At best, I'd be considered an intermediate shooter. Once in awhile I'll have a bad range day and you'd think I was a beginner.
My shooting friends say I'm a good shooter, so overall I'd put myself in the intermediate category.
buck460XVR
New member
I basically said intermediate because I am far from being a beginner, and far from being an expert/advanced. As I said, I have shot firearms for 50 some years and am quite proficient with my own. I also have helped teach Hunter's safety classes for many years. While I know my firearms well, and know the basics of most other firearms. I am not highly proficient with all firearms, nor am I knowledgeable with the parts of all other firearms, which I think is needed for an advanced level. This would not only be by shooting them, but being able disassemble and reassemble easily and quickly. Also knowing what is probably the cause of any and all malfunctions with those firearms and how to make field or home repairs on them. I shoot approximately 500 rounds of my handloaded ammo a month from my handguns and have been doing so for years. I think this is what makes me more than a beginner. But I believe that would be a weekly allotment for anyone that considers themselves advanced.
Performance: I can consistently hit center mass of a silhouette target at 15 yards.
Comparison: After observing other shooters I tend to shoot better than many, but by no means better than all.
Experience: I’ve been shooting fairly frequently for 25 years.
Knowledge: While knowledge doesn’t necessarily make you an expert I do believe having a good theoretical understanding of shooting, firearms, ammunition, etc makes me more than a beginner.
So, based on these criteria I rated myself as an intermediate, but as I mentioned earlier that’s simply my opinion. Comparing individuals over different shooting disciplines is very difficult. For example although I consider myself an intermediate shooter if I went to some Special Operations training I might not even qualify as a beginner.
2damnold4this
New member
Given the forum, I'm gonna stick to handguns.
I have taken a few handgun classes but would have a difficult time choosing between an intermediate class and a beginner class. I'm comfortable with safety and marksmanship but I don't think my gun handling skills are up to an intermediate level for the 642 I carry and I haven't been practicing them for my G26 like I should. I think I would benefit a lot from taking a snubby course for beginners. I would probably take an intermediate class with the Glock but I'd practice the gun handling techniques I was taught before I signed up.
I have taken a few handgun classes but would have a difficult time choosing between an intermediate class and a beginner class. I'm comfortable with safety and marksmanship but I don't think my gun handling skills are up to an intermediate level for the 642 I carry and I haven't been practicing them for my G26 like I should. I think I would benefit a lot from taking a snubby course for beginners. I would probably take an intermediate class with the Glock but I'd practice the gun handling techniques I was taught before I signed up.
I consider myself an "advanced" shooter, but then, my primary criteria is my age!
I think you should have included another category, "expert", because I feel that the top match shooters and their performance is beyond "advanced".
I think I'm "advanced" because I have a broad range of skill and experience with a broad range of handgun types and calibers. Not because I have world class shooting skills with any of them.
I can ring the 200yd rifle gong offhand, slow fire, and I can get a fist size group at speed with a bellygun at spitting distance. But I'm not at the level that wins combat matches, and never will be.
On the other hand, I know guns, and cartridges, and have personal hands on experience with a wide variety of types and calibers. From a pocket .32 to a magnum autopistol. DA and SA revolvers and autos, and also some single shots (Contender, XP-100).
I load for these handgun cartridges:
.32ACP, 9mm Luger, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .357 AMP, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .44 AMP, .45ACP, .45 Colt, & .45 Win Mag. Also for .22 Hornet, .221 Fireball, .222Rem, .30-30 Win, and .45-70 in single shot handguns.
I think I'm "advanced", but on the bottom end of the range. Some might consider me "intermediate", but I think I'm just beyond that. And, of course, its my opinion that matters.
I think you should have included another category, "expert", because I feel that the top match shooters and their performance is beyond "advanced".
I think I'm "advanced" because I have a broad range of skill and experience with a broad range of handgun types and calibers. Not because I have world class shooting skills with any of them.
I can ring the 200yd rifle gong offhand, slow fire, and I can get a fist size group at speed with a bellygun at spitting distance. But I'm not at the level that wins combat matches, and never will be.
On the other hand, I know guns, and cartridges, and have personal hands on experience with a wide variety of types and calibers. From a pocket .32 to a magnum autopistol. DA and SA revolvers and autos, and also some single shots (Contender, XP-100).
I load for these handgun cartridges:
.32ACP, 9mm Luger, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .357 AMP, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .44 AMP, .45ACP, .45 Colt, & .45 Win Mag. Also for .22 Hornet, .221 Fireball, .222Rem, .30-30 Win, and .45-70 in single shot handguns.
I think I'm "advanced", but on the bottom end of the range. Some might consider me "intermediate", but I think I'm just beyond that. And, of course, its my opinion that matters.
Son of Liberty
New member
I would call myself experienced and competent...making the adjectives in the poll irrelevant.
I took a lot of different things in to consideration when trying to determine which of the three categories I would rank myself in...
To compile all the bits of "evidence" to place yourself in "advanced", you are pretty much attempting to build some manner of a resume and to spew it all out in a post ends up looking like braggadocio. At the same time, you have to also try to pick as many examples as you can find that you either are not good at or cannot claim, to use as evidence to push yourself down from the top. "I can't shoot like Jerry Miculek, thus, how could I choose the top choice of three choices?" This is a very difficult thing to do, as many have stated.
For myself, the easiest bit of evidence to rank myself in the top of only three choices is quite simply how I have witnessed myself and my abilities compared to the literally countless other folks I have shot with, nearby, in the same place/time, in the same event, etc etc etc. Over a quarter century, we're talking about many dozens of range days, range trips, competitions, practice sessions, get-togethers, and, well, you name it. Live fire shooting with guns. Friends, complete strangers, folks who are obviously quite new and enough times -- the "experienced" person "attempting" to "teach" them that truly needed more help than the poor student. But of course -- incredibly experienced and professional trainers who not only have physical abilities that easily surpass my own, but also have the ability to impart that wisdom in small, concise bits that most anyone can instantly gain from. **--see note
I have also had an interesting view of the rise of the abilities of a shooter, and that has been a lot of fun for me. I began shooting with a work acquaintance roughly six years ago and I had a couple decades of shooting under my belt when we shared our first range trip. He was not a brand new shooter and he handled firearms safely and properly but his ability was basic and unpolished and I have watched him over time get better and better and better. I can still edge him in small group shooting on paper. But he has absolutely eclipsed me in drawing and presentation, fast shooting, target transitions, double and triple taps and other handgun drills where speed and movement are a big part of it. We are still close enough in most of our abilities that it is a -LOT- of fun to shoot "against" each other, but I believe that he is still improving and I am starting to fight age and physical limitations -- and I can admit that I don't have the drive to practice "the little things" that improve many of my weaknesses the way that he will.
To put it another way and be completely honest, I much prefer to spend my range sessions enjoying what I like to do most, and being very happy and confident with that decision, where he prefers to work on skills that improve his abilities with drawing, moving, transitioning, reloads, etc.
-OOPS- forgot my **story
**story
I have twice had the chance to be around David Bowie in a casual/formal setting. It wasn't a full paid course that he was running, but it is an annual shoot that is run in a professional fashion at TDI for the purpose of fund-raising for political grassroots gun organizations. As such, Bowie has a small area that he is in charge of and ALL of the shooters present at that event get a chance to shoot steel plates in his area.
Let me tell you...
This part of the day is 100% different than every other part of the day. He runs his own RULES, he runs his own COURSE and he is present and mere inches from you if you WANT him to be and he stands back and out of your way if you don't want him there. He will assess what he sees if you ask him to do so, he will make suggestions if you want or he will leave you alone if you don't care for them.
I have gotten a short burst of sentences out of him given to me so clearly and easy to digest that it made an immediate and direct instant impact on what I was doing. I watched him take a buddy of mine (a novice at the time) and try to explain to him a better way to hold his handgun. My buddy takes the advice, shoots better that moment (with half a dozen people listening to every word and eyes glued on him) and a moment later when he cannot seem to recapture the positive hold Bowie demonstrated for him... Bowie whips out a ball point pen, rearranges the shooter's hands, draws helpful ink lines for him to later "line up" and his shooting for the entire day improves. This was less than two minutes of demonstrated instruction and when you WATCH this being delivered (to you or to another subject), you almost feel like you are watching something happen in slo-mo that you simply aren't going to find everywhere. I hesitate to describe it as something more than it is, but it is one thing to be able to do something (every single time) at an elite level, but there is a whole other skill set when that person can deliver those instructions in a clear, concise and demonstrable way and see INSTANT results on the subject.
And David Bowie was absolutely not the only one there with that ability. Some of the folks I have met, shot with and taken instruction from at TDI would impress most any hobbyist shooter with their ability as an instructor.
And when I see those folks work their magic, it makes me want to change my answer to "intermediate" in a hurry. But then, I see dozens and dozens of other shooters in every setting over the entire rest of the year that, simply by the numbers/odds makes me feel that I was correct in assessing myself the first time.
**story
I have twice had the chance to be around David Bowie in a casual/formal setting. It wasn't a full paid course that he was running, but it is an annual shoot that is run in a professional fashion at TDI for the purpose of fund-raising for political grassroots gun organizations. As such, Bowie has a small area that he is in charge of and ALL of the shooters present at that event get a chance to shoot steel plates in his area.
Let me tell you...
This part of the day is 100% different than every other part of the day. He runs his own RULES, he runs his own COURSE and he is present and mere inches from you if you WANT him to be and he stands back and out of your way if you don't want him there. He will assess what he sees if you ask him to do so, he will make suggestions if you want or he will leave you alone if you don't care for them.
I have gotten a short burst of sentences out of him given to me so clearly and easy to digest that it made an immediate and direct instant impact on what I was doing. I watched him take a buddy of mine (a novice at the time) and try to explain to him a better way to hold his handgun. My buddy takes the advice, shoots better that moment (with half a dozen people listening to every word and eyes glued on him) and a moment later when he cannot seem to recapture the positive hold Bowie demonstrated for him... Bowie whips out a ball point pen, rearranges the shooter's hands, draws helpful ink lines for him to later "line up" and his shooting for the entire day improves. This was less than two minutes of demonstrated instruction and when you WATCH this being delivered (to you or to another subject), you almost feel like you are watching something happen in slo-mo that you simply aren't going to find everywhere. I hesitate to describe it as something more than it is, but it is one thing to be able to do something (every single time) at an elite level, but there is a whole other skill set when that person can deliver those instructions in a clear, concise and demonstrable way and see INSTANT results on the subject.
And David Bowie was absolutely not the only one there with that ability. Some of the folks I have met, shot with and taken instruction from at TDI would impress most any hobbyist shooter with their ability as an instructor.
And when I see those folks work their magic, it makes me want to change my answer to "intermediate" in a hurry. But then, I see dozens and dozens of other shooters in every setting over the entire rest of the year that, simply by the numbers/odds makes me feel that I was correct in assessing myself the first time.
I said advanced because I've competed and officiated at well over 500 USPSA and IDPA matches over a seventeen-year period.
I don't consider myself some steely-eyed, deadly pistolero, but shooting every weekend, under the pressure of time, and peer evaluation can make you a pretty good gunhandler.
I don't consider myself some steely-eyed, deadly pistolero, but shooting every weekend, under the pressure of time, and peer evaluation can make you a pretty good gunhandler.
Television and YouTube always show the good shots some of these "Top notch" shooters hit their target. Like Byron Ferguson shooting an arrow through a ring, great shot. But did you see the backboard? It looked like three rounds of buck shot. I wasn't there to see but they didn't just turn the camera on, and Byron shot "that's a rap". Let's go home.
Why did I claim "advance".
I've been to many ranges and haven't seen anything close to my groupings.
I've been around guns all my life.
Beginner- we all start new at everything we do.
Intermediate - been doing it awhile. Can handle things just fine.
Advanced- know exactly what and how you are doing.
extraterrestrial- that's the people that spend their life doing one thing.
Why did I claim "advance".
I've been to many ranges and haven't seen anything close to my groupings.
I've been around guns all my life.
Beginner- we all start new at everything we do.
Intermediate - been doing it awhile. Can handle things just fine.
Advanced- know exactly what and how you are doing.
extraterrestrial- that's the people that spend their life doing one thing.
4runnerman
New member
Rifle- Advanced-- Pistol- Is there one lower than beginner.
Why- Pistol is self explanatory, As for rifle, I can and do hold my own at extreme range. I see what others shoot and while I am not a pro, I see that I am far surpassing what they do.
Why- Pistol is self explanatory, As for rifle, I can and do hold my own at extreme range. I see what others shoot and while I am not a pro, I see that I am far surpassing what they do.