BAD situation today

[gnut]

Sir William, what the hell were you thinking? What the hell are all of you thinking? The answer to this senerio is to stand up and calmly say, boys, I think it is time for a time out.
This thread pisses me off. Not at Sir William or anybody who has posted a reply. I am pissed at our society as a whole. Because of law suits and liberal thinking, men can't be men. When I was a teen my buddies and I miss behaved on several occasions. Each time some man who we didn't even know got involved and crawled our butts. So what is the solution?
First we have to become men in our homes. That doesn't mean we have be a Hitler. Balance is the key. Balance between punishment and love, it depends on the child on which is needed most.
I could go on and on, but look at it like this.
You are wanting to destroy a town, so you invade the town quietly, you destroyed all the valient men covertly. You then can have your way with the women and children.
See any comparisons?
Look, I don't claim to have all the answers. I haven't been the perfect dad or husband. The one thing I can tell you is that I am king of my house. My queen has a lot of power and influence, and we love our subjects dearly. But my word is final.
In closing, I recall the scene from Braveheart where the nobles were going out to meet with and negotiate with the kings army. William Roberts starts to ride out, when I think Steven asks him where he is going. His reply? To pick a fight.
Thats all I have to say about that.

 

[Duxman]

Instead of rehashing some of the points already made lets talk about goals:

For the average CCW holder - my goal is to go home safe everyday.

Success for me - never having to draw my weapon - to avoid conflict.

Sir William has scored on both points.

The only possible threat is the kid reaching into his pants and saying he has a gun. The pre-teen did not actually draw or even show the butt of the gun. (Unless I am mistaken in the actual read.)

In Sir Williams situation - (I normally carry horizontal shoulder holster) - I would have reached into the jacket non chalantly and taken the thumb strap off, asking my Mother to get ready to jump below the table.

Also checking which angle would be the safest to take a shot - just in case the bullet goes through the BG. Dont forget you are in a restaurant. You dont want the bullet to go through BG and hit an innocent.

Alternative scenario #1 - if there was a nearby exit - and it is unblocked by BGs - I would take my family and exit. (If I was alone - that would be different)

Alternative scenario #2 - If one BG has gun - there is no guarantee that he is the only one armed. So if you draw and shoot him, one of the other kids could potentially draw and shoot you or get into a gunfight with you. This would make a very bad situation worse.

In my estimation - there was no IMMEDIATE threat. It could have gone either way, although I am glad it did not go bad.

 

[spacemanspiff]

I was only thinking about NOT wanting to kill a child.

I made my decision to carry because I wish to defend my life and the lives of others if possible, from those who have no respect for life. There is no set of different standards for teenagers or pre-teens.
If they pose a threat, I'll deal with that threat.

On top of all that, the mentality behind carrying is not about killing, its about stopping the threat. Yes, I know, its semantics, but if you are still talking about 'killing' people while you are lawfully carrying, maybe you should rethink carrying altogether. I don't wish to kill anyone, but if I have to, I'll shoot to stop a threat. If they die in the process, oh well.

 

[Hook686]

02-09-2006, 01:58 AM #8

Sir William wrote:

I was only thinking about NOT wanting to kill a child. Really. These were pre-teens, I was offended and angered by their actions and behaviour but, I kept recalling the words of the Washington mall CCWer who was shot down. I did place my hand on the butt of my Walther when the one unknown child said he had a gun. If he had begun drawing a Gamo pistol, I don't honestly KNOW? I requested that the owner of the coffee shop pull and review the video camera footage, I did obtain a incident report form and I am thinking of filing a beef against the shop manager inside it for non-action, inappropriate action and failure to provide a safe environment for the customers. I know that everybody cannot be a Marine but, poor ACTION is better than NOTHING. I will fill out the incident report form and see what occurs. It DID take selfcontrol to simply NOT crush the little maggots, pardon my french.

It sounds to me in this post that your concern was not your mother, but rather not killing a child. You did nothing. Why a beef against the shop manager for doing same ? Is the shop manager a LEO that might have a duty to act on an alleged lethal threat ?

I applaud your self control, as well as the shop manager's. Why blow up the incident, as both of you acted pretty much the same.

 

[junkpile]

Depending on where I was sitting, I'd have my hand on my firearm and on Defcon 2, I can tell you that much. (Of course, it depends on whether or not they seemed drunk, high, drugged-out, dangerous, or what).

 

[Ac1d0v3r1d3]

frankly,

i think that everyone who is able has a duty to protect the life or any person. But thats just me, other people have their own opinions and thats fine by me.
It kind of sadens me to see a police officer say that he dosent feel like he has a duty to protect when hes not at work. But i suppose that for an officer of the law standards and expections are higher. And repercussions may be larger.

 

[BikerRN]

Yes, repercussions are very high, and I don't care to go through the investigations in to my actions again.

Also, I said I was an LEO, Fed in fact. I never said I was a Police Officer, you made that assumption. I will protect myself and my family, no more when I am on my own time. The situation will dictate what my response is.

If you feel that you have a "duty" to protect others then good luck, you're going to need it. All I will say is, if the person you are protecting, a third party you don't even know, is so irresponsible as to not take precautions for their own safety why pray tell should you concern yourself with their safety?

There are exceptions to the above, but I better make darn sure I know what's occurring and who all the players are before I go jumping in to "save the day".

Biker

 

[CyberSEAL]

BG tells me aloud he has a gun all the while reaching into his pants? C'mon...it's draw time...no doubt. I don't need to "see" the gun...what I need is to have the drop on him.

 

[Jeffenwulf]

I see that this is a very old thread, but I thought I'd add my $.02. Foul language and being obnoxious are certainly irritating, but certainly not crimes. If they were, just about everyone teen and pre-teen in the U.S. would be in jail, along with many adults. Children stealing silverware is a crime, but not one where deadly force should be used. A child reaching into his pants and claiming to have a gun is a problem, both of stupidity and of legality.

You didn't see a gun nor did the gun print, so it would be difficult to tell if he did in fact have a firearm. Had he drawn the weapon, I feel you would have been justified in drawing and pointing your weapon at him. The problem with this situation is that the child could have had nothing more than a pellet gun that looked like a real weapon. Unless it were pointed at an individual, I wouldn't have fired but rather demanded that he release the weapon and get on the floor. At the earliest opportunity I would have asked that someone call 911.

As the event happened, I would have done nothing until the "gang" of children had gone. At that point I would have called 911 with a description of the kids and the information that one of them had acted in a threatening manner and claimed to have a gun. Though some may feel justified in shooting someone because they claim to have a gun and act threatening, I certainly wouldn't. Had he been merely posturing, a dead child probably wouldn't sway a jury in your favor. On the other hand, a pre-teen walking around with a handgun is certainly a problem for the police. He couldn't purchase such a weapon nor have a CCW. If there were any failings in responsibility, it was that nobody informed the police of this immediately, which endangers others in the community.

As far as suing a shop owner for failing to provide a safe environment, that's simply ludicrous. He asked them to leave and escorted them from the store. He demonstrated intent and action in providing a safe environment for customers. The only way I could see his actions causing an unsafe environment would be had he asked the child to "prove it" by drawing his weapon. So basically:
#1 Be aware
#2 Be prepared
#3 Act if necessary

You did #1 and #2, but failed in #3. Rather than just thinking about shooting the child or blaming the shop manager, you should have acted in a manner that would have removed this firearm from a child's possession by informing the police immediately. Someone spoke of the shop's customers as immediately becoming their problem once a threat was insinuated. What about the surrounding population? If this child did in fact have a gun and the intent to use it, they became endangered by this inaction.

 

[jimpeel]

At that point I would have called 911 with a description of the kids and the information that one of them had acted in a threatening manner and claimed to have a gun.

Yep, and there are few things that will get the cops there quicker than a "man with a gun" call.

 

[MacGille]

Lets get back to basics. First, don't draw unless you see a deadly weapon. Thats the first question you will be asked on the witness stand. Second if you draw, focus on the front sight and pull the trigger. Leave it to the hollywood types to Yell "Freeze" or "hands up" or anything.

Third know that you will be arrested, arraigned and probably lose your job, your gun, maybe even your family before all the dust settles. You may be exonerated but only after a lot of trouble, expense and heartache. You also may have to live with the fact of taking another's life. Don't listen to the internet heroes, they will not have to remember what it is like to kill another. Those of us who do can't tell you how it feels, you have to have been there.

Never, never use a gun to force anyone to do anything. If they call your bluff you are out of options. Carry a gun if you feel you have to , but pray that you never have to draw it. If you look for an excuse, it is gonna bite you.

 

[BikerRN]

CyberSeal

Congratulations! You have just escalated a "verbal" situation in to an "Armed Conflict". In many jurisdictions across this fine land of our's you would be answering to the Judge for Aggravated Assault. That "answering" would of course be after, "booking" at the local County Jail.

No, wait, you live in a "Gun Friendly" State, right? Tell that to Harold Fish, he lives in Arizona, one of the "Gun Friendliest" according to the Brady Bunch. In my opinion there is no "Gun Friendly" State.

As I said before, and will say again; "If it isn't to protect me and mine while Off-Duty, I'm doing nothing more than calling 911 and being a good witness."

Biker

 

[Trip20]

Congratulations! You have just escalated a "verbal" situation in to an "Armed Conflict".

I believe the person responsible for escalating a situation from verbal to "Armed Conflict" is the person who yells aloud, "I've got a gun" and who then reaches for what a reasonable person should assume is... a gun.

"If it isn't to protect me and mine while Off-Duty, I'm doing nothing more than calling 911 and being a good witness."

That's your choice, but not everyone makes the decision in advance that they'll sit by and watch another person get executed, especially while they carry the means to intervene.

Different strokes and all that.

 

[Jason607]

I didn't read much of the responces but I'll say this:

The situation was more than mishandled by the store manager. What you did was right. Those kids belong in juvinile detention, the one who threatened to pull a gun needs to spend the rest of his childhood there, and his parents need to spend some time in the iron bar hotel as well.

I was in a Burger King one day ordering food. Some little punk was asked to leave so on his way out he sprayed pepper spray into the air. The people working there as well as other customers were discusted and when I went and called 911 they looked at me shocked and suddenly I was evil because it was somebody's cousin or something that had emotional problems. Well after that he had legal problems.

 

[JoshB]

There is no good reason for anyone to go around causing trouble like those kids did. Any good American should have gotten up and politely asked them to leave. If they continued to act like that [considering you were legally armed], pulled your shirt up over your pistol, grab the grip, and say something to the effect of, "I think it's in everyone's best interest for you to calm down and leave." If they persist [especially after their comment about their gun], it would be time to draw and demand that they leave.
Fortunatly this situation worked out even though it was handled this way. Even so, I do what I have to do to protect myself, my family, and others.

 

[djturnz]

STOP! Or my mom will shoot.

 

[Rangefinder]

STOP! Or my mom will shoot.

True statement there! And she's a regular Annie Okley with her Ruger GP-100 6"... Fear the mother!

 

[CyberSEAL]

...such a situation is not easy to handle since the system protects brats too...

Understandable...however in the face of a real threat, "the system" is the last thing on my mind.

 

[CyberSEAL]

First, don't draw unless you see a deadly weapon.

Incorrect advice that could get someone killed.

 

[deerslayer79]

Damn kids these days,I woulda let the parents sue me,I don't have anything they want anyway.If I was in your shoes,I woulda felt threatened and comenced to whippin me some hind end,Let the law do what they thought was right to my actions.I believe if I was going to jail I would probably whip their parents behinds for lettin their snot nosed bratty kids be that way..75% of kids these days have no upbringing what so ever,they look up to the trash thats on T.V. instead of their own family members,and their parents let them do whatever they want,totally sickening IMHO.