BAD situation today

WhyteP38

New member
In reading through this thread, I see the following nearly polar-opposite responses:

kennybs plbg (western NY)
Enough for crying out loud, these were Pre-teens(10-11-12yo). Wasen't there a man or two (or even a woman) in the place responsible enough that would stand up, grab them by the collar and drag them outside one by one(pre-teens huh), what they needed was a swift boot in the butt.
and BillCA (Kalifornia)
Let's suppose we decide that 5 pre-teens running amok have pissed you off enough to get up and grab one or two by the collar. You manage to pull the little punks out the door while avoiding flailing arms and feet aimed at your knees or groin. Yell at the others and with luck they scamper out, worried about your threat to call the cops. But your day is only beginning. Even if you call the cops then, they'll claim they were just being noisy when you manhandled them, assaulted them and dragged them outside. You'll be lucky if one of them doesn't accuse you of trying to grope them too. That's the way some of these smart-a** kids work. Expect parents may sue you for "emotional trauma" to their little darlings and psych treatments at $200/hr.
Seems like our responses are conditioned by our environments. I grew up in Indiana, and if I still lived there, Kenny's response would probably work. I also lived in the PRK for 16 years, and if I still lived there, Bill's response would probably be the right response. (In the PRK, self-defense of any kind is considered an infringement on the delicate psyches of criminals, which makes YOU the bad guy.)

So it seems that the right response depends in large part on where you live.
 

stephen426

New member
I think these punks need a hard lesson before they become hardcore. If they think they can get away with this type of behavior without any repurcussions, what will keep them from continuing on the same track or get even worse? I hate little punks like that and would have told them to STFU and leave. If they got stupid, I would pepper spray them. These little hyenas think they are bad as*ses since no one really stands up to them. Its time for a few lions to show these punks their place on the food chain before they become hardened. I'll bet you could probably even smack a few of them around and "nobody" would have seen a thing! ;)
 
Last edited:

WhyteP38

New member
I think these punks need a hard lesson before they become hardcore. If they think they can get away with this tyoe of behavior without any repurcussions, what will keep them from continuing on the same track or get even worse?
I agree with you because I've seen it happen, several times. It's a pattern of pushing the envelope until the envelope breaks. Plus the process of nurturing a conscience in a kid, which is easiest when they're young but which a lot of parents fail to do. Parents and others who allow or enable this kind of behavior and attitude are doing the kids a disservice, sometimes literally a grave disservice.
These little hyenas think they are bad as*ses since no one really stands up to them. Its time for a few lions to show these punks their place on the totem pole before they become hardened. I'll bet you could probably even smack a few of them around and "nobody" would have seen a thing!;)
In places like Indiana, Virginia, or Florida, you're probably right. In places like the PRK, probably not. The PRK didn't get that way by accident.
 

invention_45

New member
Despite the new laws, I think I'd still be a little careful what I did in Florida.

Just because there's a statute that says you can't be arrested or sued, doesn't mean somebody won't screw up and create a great headache for you anyway. For example:

Law says that, upon being served with a Final (not Temporary) restraining order you must surrender all guns and ammunition.

But the judges or whoever have decided to put, on the face of the TEMPORARY restraining order, the command that you surrender them.

Since you don't go before the judge until the hearing that makes the RO final, you never get heard on the issue of surrendering your hardware during the temporary RO.

So, it's good that we have laws that try to give victims a chance to survive. But it can take years for all the judges, cops, and state attorneys to make them work. In the meantime, I'd try to err on the side of caution.
 

Michigan Mason

New member
Just a question on the cell phone thing...Lots of people have them with the camera built in snap a few pics of the group and when police are called let them know the gun referance was made and tell the police you have some pics of the group in the shop at the time. With all the noise they were making as long as a flash didn't go off they would be none the wiser that a pic was taken and wouldn't hear the sound of the shutter either. Just the new guys 2cents.
 

nscale

New member
I think these punks need a hard lesson before they become hardcore. If they think they can get away with this tyoe of behavior without any repurcussions, what will keep them from continuing on the same track or get even worse? I hate little punks like that and would have told them to STFU and leave. If they got stupid, I would pepper spray them. These little hyenas think they are bad as*ses since no one really stands up to them. Its time for a few lions to show these punks their place on the totem pole before they become hardened. I'll bet you could probably even smack a few of them around and "nobody" would have seen a thing!

AMEN Brother :)

SirWilliam, I am sure you did everything right my friend.
As already mentioned, everyone went home alive.

Personnally I would have been in jail and my sweet mother would have to come bail me out. Because as soon as I heard "I Have A Gun" I would have grabbed the kid by the collar, pulled my weapon and gently (yea right) placed it against his neck. His friends would all be crouched in the corner as we waited for the law to arrive. While waiting, I would explain how dangerous it is to say you have a gun if you dont...bla..bla..
When the law arrives, and before I get shot, I surrender the weapon and release the kid to the officer.
I would be handcuffed and escorted to a place of rest (jail) for a couple of hours and the sweet darling children will be taken home by the officers. I believe at least one will need a change of undies.
I would then use my one phone call to my Mom and ask her to be kind enough to bail me out. Oh yea, she would have been the witness that was yelling the entire time. Shoot Em Sonny!
 

CyberSEAL

New member
If someone announced to me they had a gun, after behaving in that manner publicly, I would have had my hand on my piece, safety on, hammer down, ready to draw. That's all...
 

Mastrogiacomo

New member
I would have done the same...my hand on my gun and ready to shoot if someone made an announcement "I have a gun!" I don't care how old, read the newspapers these days? "Kids" no more....
 

aspen1964

New member
...such a situation is not easy to handle since the system protects brats too...at first sign of bad behaviour the owner tells the brats to behave or get out...if they raise the ante..he immeadiately gets the phone and calls the police..at the same one or two customers should get up from the table to show the brats that the owner isn't alone...most punks don't like multiple opposition(one is easier for them to taunt)...although many of us wish we had the liberty to chunk them onto the sidewalk, the law can work against us if we man-handle them without just cause(in the law's eyes)...personally I don't automatically think a kid is packing a gun(the odds are far against it)..they want people to fear them..so the guy who minds his own business is guaranteeing that they will continue to raise hell...you make social-trash back down by making them feel outnumbered...I have my fair share of kid-trash who try to walk me off a sidewalk or make me step aside...if I know he is trying to do so..he bounces off my shoulder(the teeny wenches are often the worst)...I never treat anyone (including kids) disrespectfully for no reason..nor will I let any kid buffalo me...one more thing..if a kid pulls a gun he is just as likely to get shot by me as any adult...I wouldn't feel any more remorse because of it..

my tongue-in-cheek alternative is that every time a punk acts like that you go to his parent's house and beat the crap out of the father and mother until they get tired of it and start to parent their kids...
 

jimpeel

New member
Sir William

I was only thinking about NOT wanting to kill a child.

A "child" with a firearm, and threatening to use it, is no longer a child. He is fair game. You seem to think that a child cannot kill you as dead as an adult can.
 

WhyteP38

New member
It seems to me that the use of deadly force in self-defense consists of two stages. For purposes of clarity, let’s define the second stage first, which is the decision to pull the trigger.

I submit that this second stage decision to pull the trigger is relatively simple and should be made before you get into a lethal-force-decision situation. In fact, you should make it before you decide to own a gun for self-defense. Fundamentally, it breaks down this way:

If (x), then (y).

In other words, if you judge a BG is committing or about to commit sexual assault, serious bodily injury, or death against you or someone else (x), then pull the trigger (y).

For me, it is illogical to say, If (x)—unless the BG is a child, grandmother, vegan, etc.—then (y). If someone is going to commit sexual assault, serious bodily injury, or death against you or someone else, these extraneous factors are irrelevant. You are equally as sexually assaulted, seriously injured, or dead by the hands of an ex-felon as you are by a wild child, insane grandmother, or a nutritionally deprived vegan. If these factors are going to stop you, you are better off financially, legal, and physically by not carrying a weapon.

Now let’s examine the first stage decision:

Is this (x)?

Here is where the difficulty lies. How certain are you that you are seeing (x)? A neighbor standing in his yard and yelling at you that he’s going to kick-in your teeth—a verbal threat—is easily distinguished from that same neighbor storming into your yard, his fists clenched, yelling at you that he’s going to kick-in your teeth—an imminent threat. Unfortunately, many situations are ambiguous or begin one way and turn into something else. You will most likely not have all the data that you would want, and not likely have all the time to respond that you would want. You will need to trust your judgment based on partial information and time pressure, which is much easier said then done.

You can improve your judgment various ways, such as reading incident reports and the experiences of others and then mentally running through them to see where you might have judged the situation to be (x), or to see factors that will help you determine if (x) exists.

You can also run mental games throughout your daily affairs, such as “What if?” scenarios based on the activities around you. And then ask yourself:

Is this (x)?

How your situational judgment answers that question leads to one and only one of the following:

If (x), then (y).

or

If not (x), then … does the scenario require simply extra vigilance (a) or a preparatory response (b) such as leaving, moving to a better spot, readying to draw (putting your hand on the grip of your gun), etc.?

To my way of thinking, the first stage decision is the hard part. It does not always lead to the second stage decision. But if it does, the second stage decision should have been already made; an (x) situation always forces the (y) reaction.
 

riverrat66

New member
Sir William,
I think you did the right thing except for dialing 911. Having your hand on your handgun was I think the best thing you could do under those circumstances. After all, these were "pre-teens" but this smart azz kid could might very well have had a handgun or a "look a like". God forbid you ever had to shoot a child because he had a "look-a-like" handgun. Where in the hell are these children's parents? The problem is, the way society is today is that if you clip one of these punk kids, you're the bad guy! This whole deal in my opinion was a lose - lose situation. You did good by letting it move outside away from the other patrons of the restaurant.

A "child" with a firearm, and threatening to use it, is no longer a child. He is fair game. You seem to think that a child cannot kill you as dead as an adult can.
I agree 100% but I'll bet most of the time that child is just showing off and can be talked out of that handgun. Also how many children think about the consequences of using that handgun?

aspen1964,
Those types of kids are called "bullies" and they need a good azz whooping and probably so do their parents but unfortunately that's against the law!
 

jimpeel

New member
Also how many children think about the consequences of using that handgun?
That's the problem. Kids these days are trained in firearms usage by the likes of Swartzenegger, Stallone, and Willis. You point this, you pull this, and someone falls down. You change the channel and the guy who fell down is alive again.

Teacher Barry Grunow tried to talk Nathaniel Brazill out of his firearm http://www.courttv.com/trials/brazill/

His widow blamed the firearm manufacturer http://www.local10.com/news/1786880/detail.html The award against Valor was later overturned and they sued the estate for reimbursement of their costs http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=32806. As usual the Brady Bunch was celebratory http://www.bradycampaign.org/press/release.php?release=398 but didn't have much to say when the case was overturned.

It isn't the consequences that are at issue but the reality of those consequences. If they don't believe that it really hurts, or that the person they shoot will never walk the Earth again, then there is no reality for them. Television and movies have numbed kids to those facts.

If I have a grown man point a firearm at me I have some hope for survival -- 50-50 as it were. If a kid points a firearm at me I assume a 100% chance that I am going to be killed.
 

WhyteP38

New member
The problem, as I have actually seen it happen, is that kids don't know exactly what they're doing, but they know exactly what they want to do at that moment. They don't have the maturity to understand all of the consequences--the big picture view--of their actions. Consequences expand out from the moment, and often in unpredictable ways. Most adults understand this. I've never seen a kid--let's say under the age of 24--who does. (Ever notice that auto insurance rates drop when you turn 24?)

Kids usually understand the moment they are in, and they will act in a manner consistent with what they want at that moment. The non-immediate consequences almost always surprise them. As a result, if they are angry and want to harm you and feel there will be no immediate consequences, they are more likely to attempt to harm you than would an adult. This is one of the major reasons why the military recruits young adults. That is also why you will often need to tell them something that would be obvious to an adult. (Having spent 8 years after college as a naval flight officer, I have seen this countless times.)

I have seen a lot of angry, pumped-up kids suddenly show hints of fear when you mention non-immediate consequences. It's as if you've suddenly thrust them into an environment they've never experienced before, and that lack of familiarity unnerves them, at least to some degree.
 

riverrat66

New member
It isn't the consequences that are at issue but the reality of those consequences. If they don't believe that it really hurts, or that the person they shoot will never walk the Earth again, then there is no reality for them. Television and movies have numbed kids to those facts.
I agree and I know teacher Barry Grunow tried to talk Nathaniel Brazill out of his firearm but Brazill was in my opinion an altogether different case then a bunch of trouble makers showing off in restaurant.
I'm not arguing with you as I know what Sir William is talking about. I take my 84 year old mother to lunch several times a week and have no idea what I would have done in that situation.

I posted this last week in another thread about a similar situation although there was no mention of a weapon.
A few years ago I was in the local Mickey D's one morning and these two BG scumbags come in, looking like they had been up all night, they were dirty, smelly and looked like trouble right from the get-go. They started MFng the counter girl and one hit her in the face with a sandwich because he didn't like it, then one guy started harassing some guy with his wife and small kid telling him he was going to Fng kill him while the other threw stuff all over the restaurant. I was standing at the other end of the counter with a large black coffee with the lid off, and we all know how hot McDonald's coffee is! I told the other counter girl to quickly give me another large black coffee minus the lid. Mind you now I walk with a cane but I was carrying my Glock 27, but figured when these guys approached me a hot coffee in the face would work better then shooting these a-holes in a crowded restaurant. Also, if you know how to use it, the cane can be a great weapon! Well, as it turned out a few seconds later the cops were there and not so politely escorted those punks out and I went quietly on my way and I never did pay for the coffee!

But what are we to do when our society, especially our children are so influenced and numbed by what they see on TV and in the movies. Should we revert back to the days of the "Old West" , where everyone just strapped on the ole' six shooter and settled everything out in the street? Back in my day it was a fist fight, now it's a gun fight! Surely we can't just blame TV and movies. The parents have some responsibility to bear here but how do we start correcting what has been done wrong? Boy, I wish I had the answers but in the mean time I'm scared to death. Scared that some stupid kid may not give me a choice.
 

jimpeel

New member
The parents have some responsibility to bear here but how do we start correcting what has been done wrong?
The only time that parents have full control of their kids these days is from conception to birth; and then they have but two options -- keep or kill. At the moment of birth their kids are taken from them figuratively. They are told what they can and cannot do with their kids; and when those same kids later end up crosswise to the system the same people who prevent them from structuring those kids blame the parents they prevented from that structure for bad parenting skills.

Parents are told not to spank their kids because it gives them low esteem. They insist that parents instead give them a time out. Time outs are merely conditioning and preparation for jail time in later life. I'm sure that those who currently reside in jail are proud of their self esteem and are oh-so-happy about how their parents failed to structure them prior to their turn onto the path to prison.

The cure for this mess is to let parents start structuring their kids with a belt before they take the wrong path. Nearly every poster on this board had his butt whipped with a belt and grew up none the worse for it. If these same posters had been left to their own devices to become feral animals they very well might be posting here from the prison library internet connection.
 

Don P

New member
What to do.

:mad: Shoot them all and let God sort them out. Piss on them they do not deserve to suck up air that I could be using or eating food that I could eat.
 

Ac1d0v3r1d3

New member
I know this thread is old, but i'd just like to continue the conversaton some more

If i was in your situation, Since i dont carry i'd just have to tackle and stomp whoever it was that said they had a gun. Its for everyones safety. If it turns out that whoever didnt actaully have a gun, then it just teaches them a lesson. You cant going around threatening people with guns. Weather you actaully have one or not.
Seems like it might be cinsidered brandishing. I mean since you can be arrested for armed robbery even if you use a toy gun or no gun at all, you should beable to be arrested for saying that you have a gun in this situation.
Just my two cents
 

BikerRN

New member
OK, here's my take on the original situation and some of how I would've reacted; BTDT

Sit in a more tacticaly advantageous position
Not get involved (You are NOT LEO and only have a duty to protect yourself)
I am LEO and will not get involved off-duty, except to summon help
I would be a very good witness and would've called 911
If he had pulled a gun then all bets are off, I would be protecting Mom if I can do this by not moving then so be it

It sounds to me like you are looking for a chance to use your weapon. If you want to do that, pass the test and join the local Constabulary.

Biker
 

nbk2000

New member
Chances are if someone stood up to them they would of ran like the kids they really are, nice message we're sending to our youth that we accept this type of garbage.

Problem is that the same parents who let their kids run wild in the streets are the same parents who get self-rightously aggressive when anyone else takes care in correcting their spawns misbehaviour. I've seen this happen countless times.

So let the little punks run around now. In 5 years you'll be able to shoot them in the back with their own gun as they attempt to flee when they finally get around to armed robbery of a convenience store...like the one I worked at. :)

Sgt. Nathan Chapman, a Green Beret, was the first American soldier killed in combat in Afghanistan, and the fatal shot was fired by a 14-year-old boy armed with an AK-47.

So a child with a gun has the means to kill even one of the most highly trained warriors America can produce.

What are the odds for a civvie facing a pack of gun-toting thug-wannabe's? All it takes is one snot-nose with a gun to kill you.
 
Top