ATF Project Gunrunner

[frick74]

I wonder how long they would allow full auto Chinese AK's and grenades, bought in Mexico to go wandering around in our country if we had groups of narco traffickers killing US citizens.

Seems to me, that we are allowing Mexican citizens to die, in an effort to charge a few bad guys with as many counts of lying on a 4473 as possible.

Once you get the first SUV load of 30 rifles, all bought by one person, going over the border, seems the case is pretty well made to me.

Also, I love how the least harmful drug, but the most profitable one, seems to be the currency used to fund all these purchases.

Makes a great case to legalize cannabis, once and for all, and take away the main money stream for the cartels.

If you didn't have to watch for the TONS of weed coming in, it would make the search for heroin, cocaine, and meth a hell of alot easier.

 

[Al Norris]

The topic is ATF gunrunning. Drugs and drug trafficking are peripheral issues. Let's keep them there.

Grassley wants the current DOJ appointed IG to recuse herself and wants an independent IG to investigate. Sends letter to Kevin Perkins, Chairman of the Integrity Committee: http://grassley.senate.gov/about/up...sk-for-DOJ-IG-to-be-removed-from-ATF-case.pdf

Foxnews had front page coverage earlier today. Now at: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/09/project-gun-runner-scandal-border/

Grassley questions DHS Sec. Napolitano: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20041150-10391695.html?tag=stack

 

[Falcon642]

I just don't get the logic of the whole sting. Let the guns walk in hopes of nabbing someone higher up, but the higher ups are all in Mexico where the ATF has no jurisdiction.

There has to be a more devious explanation because the logic of their sting just doesn't pan out.

 

[Tom Servo]

I don't know if the WaPo's journalistic integrity has been compromised by this

They wrote about it today, although through some fairly dim lenses:

Because of weak gun laws and investigative limitations imposed at the urging of the gun lobby, many gunrunning cases end with little more than paperwork violations against buyers who procure guns for others.

The folks who initially brought this matter forward are referred to as, "Anti-ATF bloggers sympathetic to the militia movement." Go figure.

USA Today has also picked up on the story.

I'm not sure if there's a causal relationship, but the ATF's request for emergency funding to track multiple sales of long guns in border states has been denied.

 

[KyJim]

A side issue that may never be addressed . . .

The Washington Post article mentioned:

The undercover operation's goal, Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich said in a letter to Grassley, was "to dismantle the entire trafficking organization, not merely to arrest straw purchasers."

Weich added: "The allegation - that ATF 'sanctioned' or otherwise knowingly allowed the sale of assault weapons to a straw purchaser who then transported them into Mexico - is false."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/09/AR2011030901985.html

The latter assertion is now demonstrably false. A side issue is whether AAG Weich was aware of Project Gunrunner when he made this assertion. Some members here will remember that one of the charges against Oliver North was lying to Congress, though not under oath.

 

[jimpeel]

I wonder about their infatuation with the 5.7 pistols

There has been an ongoing effort by anti-firearms groups to demonize the Five-seveN since its civilian inception. Perhaps that effort goes to this scandal.

SOURCE

In early 2005, the pistol was subject to intense controversy after the Brady Campaign stated that commercially available 5.7x28mm SS192 ammunition penetrated a Level IIA Kevlar vest in testing.[18][44] The National Rifle Association shortly countered the Brady Campaign's claim by pointing out that the gun control group may not have adhered to standard testing procedures, and that FN only offers armor-piercing varieties of the 5.7x28mm cartridge to military and law enforcement customers.[44][45] Varieties offered to civilians are classified by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) as not armor-piercing, and it was claimed that the SS192 and SS196 cartridge variations were unable to penetrate various types of Kevlar vests in tests conducted by FNH USA.[46]

[MORE]

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

They wrote about it today, although through some fairly dim lenses:

True, although there is some interesting information in there if you supplement your reading with other sources - did you catch the part where ATF had initiated a criminal investigation against Carter's Country for doing what ATF told them to do? Apparently now that the cat is out of the bag, they dropped the criminal investigation; but how scary is that if you are an FFL? I wonder if Carter's Country tried to stop cooperating and ATF leaned on them?

And as usualy, WaPo carries water for the ATF: "many gunrunning cases end with little more than paperwork violations against buyers who procure guns for others. Such so-called straw purchaser cases rarely amount to more than charges of lying on federal documents."

Last time I looked, that was a crime that could land you up to TEN YEARS in a federal prison. That isn't exactly a walk in the park. If 10 years in a federal prison isn't deterrent enough, then what is? And all you have to prove is that the guy lied on the paperwork. Way to unconditionally whitewash the story WaPo.

Plus as KyJim notes, Weich's statement is clearly false. They have video of the ATF watching these guys buy the weapons and drive off. They have logs showing the date and time the weapons crossed into Mexico. If ATF didn't allow the sales of weapons to a straw purchaser who took them into Mexico, then how did that happen?

 

[Tom Servo]

According to a letter [pdf] sent to Attorney General Holder from 13 members of the Judiciary committee:

We find it ironic that the government allowed guns to be trafficked into Mexico as part of a program designed to stop guns from being trafficked into Mexico.

The letter quotes from a DOJ review [pdf] from 11/2010, in which the ATF was found to be "not responsive" to their recommendations.

 

[KyJim]

The letter quotes from a DOJ review [pdf] from 11/2010, in which the ATF was found to be "not responsive" to their recommendations.

I had not seen this review, nor have I read the entire contents. I did look at the Executive Summary and the Results portion in the first part of the report. I found the following excerpt from page 9 to be interesting:

A June 2009 Government Accountability Office report estimated that trace data was submitted to ATF on less than a quarter of the guns seized in Mexico. Further, most trace requests that are submitted to ATF from Mexico are considered “unsuccessful” because of missing or improperly entered gun data. Although ATF has provided Mexican law enforcement with training in firearms identification, we found the percentage of total trace requests that succeed has declined since the start of Project Gunrunner. Moreover, few of the traces that do succeed generate usable investigative leads because guns submitted for tracing often were seized by Mexican officials years before the trace requests were submitted. In such cases, the time at which a gun was transferred illegally may be outside the statute of limitations and charges cannot be brought against those responsible.

We determined that Mexican law enforcement authorities do not view gun tracing as an important investigative tool for them.

(footnote 5 omitted)

Basically, the review is stating that from Mexico's viewpoint, Project Gunrunner and the trace of firearms seized in Mexico is a waste of time! That certainly shoots a lot of holes into positions taken by the mainstream media and certain segments of our political leadership.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

This should be interesting... apparently at least one Mexican politician is announcing he will ask the United States to extradite the ATF agents responsible for Fast and Furious to Mexico to stand charges:

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/03/ay-caramba-gunwalker-bill-declared.html

 

[frick74]

Interesting, the O admin isn't sticking up for the citizen/spy in Pakistan claiming diplomatic immunity, so the precedent has been set for a non defense of US citizens in other countries already.

And, the article link posted mirrors my thoughts, in the derision the Mexican gov. for allowing mexican blood to flow for the benefit of our firearms investigation.

I find it unlikely that the ATF had Mexico's best interests in mind, when conducting this sting

 

[Tom Servo]

This should be interesting... apparently at least one Mexican politician is announcing he will ask the United States to extradite the ATF agents responsible for Fast and Furious to Mexico to stand charges

The US Embassy, oddly enough, released a statement today.

The alleged transfer of arms to Mexican territory at this point is exactly that - an allegation.

...albeit one with some pretty substantial evidence.

There is no contradiction between the statement of the Mexican government and the information provided by the United States concerning an operation that dismantled a major arms trafficking ring that has been called Fast and Furious. The operation took place on U.S. territory and arrested 20 defendants on January 25, 2011.

Considering the cost and scope of the operation, I wouldn't consider the arrest of a few low-level folk "dismantling a major arms ring."

In any case, the collateral damage will continue to be felt for years.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

25 ATF agents write a letter to the House Judiciary Committee detailing scandals involving Gunwalker, whistleblower retaliation, AND even more scandlas such as false testimony, willful disregard of statute, etc.

Even better? This letter was also sent to the Senate Judiciary Committee (Schumer, Pelosi and Boxer) TWO YEARS AGO.

Details here:
http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2011/03/25_atf_agents_w.php

It is so bad that ATF Deputy Director Edgar Domenech has even filed a whistleblower complaint against ATF. This is the second most powerful manager in the ATF filing a complaint against the agency he is supposed to manage.

When you read the letter and the crimes that are alleged in it, it is just amazing that a federal law enforcement agency could get away with this for so long.

 

[Crosshair]

This should be interesting... apparently at least one Mexican politician is announcing he will ask the United States to extradite the ATF agents responsible for Fast and Furious to Mexico to stand charges:

Hopefully the right people get sent across and spend a little time in a Mexican prison for pulling that kind of stuff.

 

[frick74]

It will never happen, we send them billions in aid, they are our pet neighbor to the south.

No way will the corrupt politicians chance losing the money.

 

[Loupgarou]

It seems to be morphing legally into something more than an allegation, and fast. Of course, let us not rule out imaginative spin doctoring, even now. That is probably the one bureaucratic talent that should not be underestimated.

I just found it on the CBS News site, of all places. It was broadcast earlier tonight. I searched other major national news media and found nothing. Maybe Fox has it too, I don't know. It's beginning to look like a wide-ranging criminal conspiracy this thing.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/21/eveningnews/main20045609.shtml

 

[MTT TL]

It's beginning to look like a wide-ranging criminal conspiracy this thing.

In the bustle we are forgetting the golden rule of all government scandals. "Follow the Money"

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Holder says "Gunwalking is wrong"; yet the latests CBS News story alleges that in addition to ATF, DHS, the U.S. Marshals, ICE, and DEA knew about Fast and Furious. The story also says that an Assistant United States Attorney was overseeing the entire operation.

So if that is the case, I'm wondering how the hell Holder didn't know about this or know what was going on? It is also interesting that he has changed his tune from "That never happened" to "That never should have happened."

 

[Tom Servo]

I just found it on the CBS News site, of all places.

CBS has been at the forefront of investigating and publicizing this in the mainstream media. They were the ones to whom agents John Dodson and Rene Jaquez came forward on the public record.'

IIRC, Fox was a few days later in picking up the story.

 

[USAFNoDak]

I just found it on the CBS News site, of all places.

Has anyone seen it on the major TV news outlets during their 5:30 p.m. broadcasts? If hits there, you'll know it's spinning out of control for the BATFE and the Justice Dept. We still have a lot of folks, particularly those over the age of 50 or so, who get their daily news from ABC, CBS, and NBC nightly news coverage via TV.