I don't think this is an accurate reading of these paragraphs. Paragraph 8 refers to a number of firearms with obliterated serial numbers being seized including "12 Romarm 7.62 pistols, Model Draco C (oblieterated serial numbers)." Paragraph 9 refers to three firearms used in the assault of Zapata including a "Romarm-Cugir, model Draco, 7.62 pistol, with an obliterated serial number." There is no express or implied statement that this was one of the pistols seized earlier.
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ATF Project Gunrunner
- Thread starter Al Norris
- Start date
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Apparently the Mexican government is hearing about the Gunwalker allegations as well and officially requested information on the program yesterday. That is going to be an awkward diplomatic conversation.
So that is two federal agents murdered with Gunwalker firearms so far?
So that is two federal agents murdered with Gunwalker firearms so far?
Zapata's partner was injured.So that is two federal agents murdered with Gunwalker firearms so far?
There's no telling how many Mexican lives have been taken with them.
New here, but Tom Servo, you are voicing a number of my concerns as an FFL, specifically about allowing a crime to be committed with the approval of the ATF.
Frankly, for that to happen, after a sit down with me, and my attorney, whose fee's they would have to be paying, I figured I would need a document clarifying the fact they were insisting on it, and a letter from someone very high up, like the AG of the US himself, giving me blanket immunity for all actions involved.
As well as a nice fee for me, for taking the chance that these gun running criminals may not forget who it was that helped bufu their operations, WITH A MEXICAN DRUG CARTEL!
And that fee BETTER include a spot in the witness protection program, with income guaranteed for life, if needed.
Seriously, do they expect us dealers to be a part of law enforcement?
Frankly, for that to happen, after a sit down with me, and my attorney, whose fee's they would have to be paying, I figured I would need a document clarifying the fact they were insisting on it, and a letter from someone very high up, like the AG of the US himself, giving me blanket immunity for all actions involved.
As well as a nice fee for me, for taking the chance that these gun running criminals may not forget who it was that helped bufu their operations, WITH A MEXICAN DRUG CARTEL!
And that fee BETTER include a spot in the witness protection program, with income guaranteed for life, if needed.
Seriously, do they expect us dealers to be a part of law enforcement?
Wow, I just read the entire 44 page indictment.
It answered one of my questions, and that was the Dealers profits on the sales, seem to average about 300 dollars per item, with the exception of the Barretts and 50 caliber belt fed semi's.
I wonder if they let lone wolf keep the money, or if it was all seized as evidence.
I can understand the desire for the AK's but, if I wonder about their infatuation with the 5.7 pistols, unless they have a source for factory armor piercing ammo, thats unavailable in the US through normal sources.
If nothing else, its an interesting look into the mind of the cartels, and their shooters.
And, I know this, the distributor who was selling the AK's to Lone Wolf, must have sent him one hell of a fruit basket at Christmas time.
It answered one of my questions, and that was the Dealers profits on the sales, seem to average about 300 dollars per item, with the exception of the Barretts and 50 caliber belt fed semi's.
I wonder if they let lone wolf keep the money, or if it was all seized as evidence.
I can understand the desire for the AK's but, if I wonder about their infatuation with the 5.7 pistols, unless they have a source for factory armor piercing ammo, thats unavailable in the US through normal sources.
If nothing else, its an interesting look into the mind of the cartels, and their shooters.
And, I know this, the distributor who was selling the AK's to Lone Wolf, must have sent him one hell of a fruit basket at Christmas time.
Cooperation with law enforcement is in everyone's best interest. I'll be the first to pick up the phone and call them if I think something's amiss, but I will not break the law. Promises and agreements are likely to be quickly and conveniently forgotten when something goes sideways like this.Seriously, do they expect us dealers to be a part of law enforcement?
I'd lay odds that Lone Wolf is going to end up being the scapegoat in this whole thing to some extent.
In other news,
The Office of Management and Budget notified the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives last week that its request to require gun stores in four border states to report the multiple sales of certain long guns favored by Mexican cartels did not constitute an emergency under the law.
There are rumors of a $160 million cut coming out of the ATF's budget next session, which will likely shut down Project Gunrunner.
I really don't want to go off bashing the ATF out of hand. The guys in my field division are a good bunch, and they're working hard to do good and preserve credibility. But the guys in the Phoenix division are obviously pretty far off the reservation.
I'm not so sure it's the guys in the field office that headed off the reservation. The reads more like they were directed off by what would be called "competent authority".
The "competent" part is what I question.
And as a general rule, I don't bash the BATFE either. But one has to question what going on when ops like this appear.
The "competent" part is what I question.
And as a general rule, I don't bash the BATFE either. But one has to question what going on when ops like this appear.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
But the guys in the Phoenix division are obviously pretty far off the reservation.
Well, to be fair, it was several agents from the Phoenix division who blew the lid off of this, at great personal risk. And it also seems from the Carter Country story that the gunwalking thing isn't confined just to the Phoenix ATF office. Clearly, there are some serious institutional problems at ATF though.
If its any indicator, when I renewed my FFL in 08, as part of directive from the Philly ATF, they wanted to do an on premise inspection of any dealer renewing their license.
Some 6 months or so later, operating under a LOC, I was finally inspected, looking at the last years 4473's, for errors, etc.
This past Month, I renewed, had my new license in about two weeks, with no mention, nor hide nor hair of any inspection.
So it appears at least in this area, the budget isn't allowing renewal inspections, etc, of existing licensees.
Cooperating with the ATF is one thing, being part of a 100 plus firearm sales sting, with some bad folks, is not what I would consider simple cooperation, you are an integral part of the entire sting, in fact, probably the MOST important part.
You are acting as an informant basically, and a salesman, and if it was in the drug world, you would be selling the drugs, instead of "Just" a firearm.
Not to mention time spent during the stings, what about time spent in court, if you are needed to testify? There could be a lot of pro bono work on your part just for wanting to be a "Good guy". If I wanted to be part of the criminal justice system, I would have gone to college for it.
Just look at the liability, on the face of it right now, the shop ID'd with providing the guns that killed the agent, MUST be expecting a civil suit from the survivors.
I sure as hell would be.
And lets face it, if this all comes tumbling down, with the agents trying to save their own butts, how much assistance do you think is going to be given to people outside the agency?
Without being rude, having lived through the Clinton years, where I was treated poorly by the ATF, just for being an FFL holder, they wanted all of us shut down, if they could justify it, I hold no great fondness for them now.
Would I help them, of course, but to a degree, and what they asked of these businesses in AZ and Texas goes far beyond what an FFL should ever be asked to do.
Some 6 months or so later, operating under a LOC, I was finally inspected, looking at the last years 4473's, for errors, etc.
This past Month, I renewed, had my new license in about two weeks, with no mention, nor hide nor hair of any inspection.
So it appears at least in this area, the budget isn't allowing renewal inspections, etc, of existing licensees.
Cooperating with the ATF is one thing, being part of a 100 plus firearm sales sting, with some bad folks, is not what I would consider simple cooperation, you are an integral part of the entire sting, in fact, probably the MOST important part.
You are acting as an informant basically, and a salesman, and if it was in the drug world, you would be selling the drugs, instead of "Just" a firearm.
Not to mention time spent during the stings, what about time spent in court, if you are needed to testify? There could be a lot of pro bono work on your part just for wanting to be a "Good guy". If I wanted to be part of the criminal justice system, I would have gone to college for it.
Just look at the liability, on the face of it right now, the shop ID'd with providing the guns that killed the agent, MUST be expecting a civil suit from the survivors.
I sure as hell would be.
And lets face it, if this all comes tumbling down, with the agents trying to save their own butts, how much assistance do you think is going to be given to people outside the agency?
Without being rude, having lived through the Clinton years, where I was treated poorly by the ATF, just for being an FFL holder, they wanted all of us shut down, if they could justify it, I hold no great fondness for them now.
Would I help them, of course, but to a degree, and what they asked of these businesses in AZ and Texas goes far beyond what an FFL should ever be asked to do.
Frick74:
Not to mention the potential to be involved in multiple deaths, including, maybe, innocent people. Guns and drugs can both kill. I wouldn't feel comfortable selling either to known criminals, even if it was under the blessing of the DEA or BATFE. I couldn't sleep at night, wondering what was being done with the merchandize I was selling.
You are acting as an informant basically, and a salesman, and if it was in the drug world, you would be selling the drugs, instead of "Just" a firearm.
Not to mention time spent during the stings, what about time spent in court, if you are needed to testify? There could be a lot of pro bono work on your part just for wanting to be a "Good guy". If I wanted to be part of the criminal justice system, I would have gone to college for it.
Just look at the liability, on the face of it right now, the shop ID'd with providing the guns that killed the agent, MUST be expecting a civil suit from the survivors.
Not to mention the potential to be involved in multiple deaths, including, maybe, innocent people. Guns and drugs can both kill. I wouldn't feel comfortable selling either to known criminals, even if it was under the blessing of the DEA or BATFE. I couldn't sleep at night, wondering what was being done with the merchandize I was selling.
It's my understanding that the Mexican Ministry of Foreign Affairs directed its inquiry to the US Dept. of State.
While I really don't want to get into the politics of this, you just have to be thinking if Hillary will jump ship and throw the Obama Administration under the bus, for a sure shot at 2012.
As far as that affidavit I mentioned, yes, I was wrong in reading it the exact way I did.
But you have to wonder why out of the blue, the affidavit mentions that the same traffickers were able to move the same make gun (Draco) that was involved in the Zapata murder. Prior movement?
Why is that information even germane to the affidavit? Why did the ATF allow known traffickers to continue to "walk" the guns?
While I really don't want to get into the politics of this, you just have to be thinking if Hillary will jump ship and throw the Obama Administration under the bus, for a sure shot at 2012.
As far as that affidavit I mentioned, yes, I was wrong in reading it the exact way I did.
But you have to wonder why out of the blue, the affidavit mentions that the same traffickers were able to move the same make gun (Draco) that was involved in the Zapata murder. Prior movement?
Why is that information even germane to the affidavit? Why did the ATF allow known traffickers to continue to "walk" the guns?
kilimanjaro
New member
We're all supposed to be law-abiding gun owners and licensees.....no one has any business aiding and abetting some lawless political scheme, immunity or not, that results in trafficking arms to criminals. The parties to the scheme should have to literally steal the arms in order to further their goals, whatever they are. Let 'em get caught doing that, even the jackleg media can't ignore it.
CBS ran an update on "Gunwalker" tonite. Looks like ATF may have a problem seeing they've tracked this deal back to 2007 now. The ATF tried to flood the news with positive spin after CBS ran this a couple of weeks ago hoping it would die of neglect but just like Jack in the "Shining".....it's back!
kilimanjaro:
I wonder if this violates any "international laws" since they apparently did NOT have the permission of the Mexican Government to do this.
I'm encouraged to see multiple media outlets, including CBS and the LA Times covering this. When you get the anti-gun/pro-gun-control media beating up a big government agency in charge of gun control, you know the excrement is hitting the rotating air movement device.
I wouldn't mind seeing this go right to Eric Holder and seeing that wimpy little AG taken down, maybe even tossed into the federal pen. He's a big time gun banner. I don't take kindly to people who want to take away my civil rights which he's supposed to protect according the the 2nd A.
We're all supposed to be law-abiding gun owners and licensees.....no one has any business aiding and abetting some lawless political scheme, immunity or not, that results in trafficking arms to criminals. The parties to the scheme should have to literally steal the arms in order to further their goals, whatever they are. Let 'em get caught doing that, even the jackleg media can't ignore it.
I wonder if this violates any "international laws" since they apparently did NOT have the permission of the Mexican Government to do this.
I'm encouraged to see multiple media outlets, including CBS and the LA Times covering this. When you get the anti-gun/pro-gun-control media beating up a big government agency in charge of gun control, you know the excrement is hitting the rotating air movement device.
I wouldn't mind seeing this go right to Eric Holder and seeing that wimpy little AG taken down, maybe even tossed into the federal pen. He's a big time gun banner. I don't take kindly to people who want to take away my civil rights which he's supposed to protect according the the 2nd A.
Mac11:
Apparently, they're going to have their hands full with this problem. When the anti gun media from your own side is the pet Yorkie nipping at your heels, you know the pit bull is going to come after you eventually, and it'll go for the throat. I bet some of these BATFE folks involved are shaking in their jackboots (as Wayne Lappierre referred to some of the worst of them a few years back).
CBS ran an update on "Gunwalker" tonite. Looks like ATF may have a problem seeing they've tracked this deal back to 2007 now. The ATF tried to flood the news with positive spin after CBS ran this a couple of weeks ago hoping it would die of neglect but just like Jack in the "Shining".....it's back!
Apparently, they're going to have their hands full with this problem. When the anti gun media from your own side is the pet Yorkie nipping at your heels, you know the pit bull is going to come after you eventually, and it'll go for the throat. I bet some of these BATFE folks involved are shaking in their jackboots (as Wayne Lappierre referred to some of the worst of them a few years back).
I know that David Codrea has been wondering how long (and what) it will take to get the MSM to acknowledge this thing. It's now appearing that the media is waking up... Except perhaps the most influential newspaper of them all - The Washington Post. They appear to be dead, in respect to this story.
Except perhaps the most influential newspaper of them all - The Washington Post. They appear to be dead, in respect to this story.
I have hope that George Will or Charles Krauthammer will write an editorial about this. Seems to be right up their alley.
I agree. However, this is a pretty extraordinary situation. To a journalist (or any skeptic), such strong accusations demand equally strong evidence. I'd want to be sure before I went writing on this in a national news outlet.I have hope that George Will or Charles Krauthammer will write an editorial about this. Seems to be right up their alley.
Until a couple of weeks ago, the only evidence was hearsay. Heck, I initially wrote it off as wishful alarmism. Now that it's concrete, things will likely accelerate.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Except perhaps the most influential newspaper of them all - The Washington Post. They appear to be dead, in respect to this story.
The Washington Post Company owns Kaplan, Inc. - the for-profit educational group that brought in $2.3 billion to the Post in 2008 (accounting for 58% of the revenue of the WaPo Co.) and is currently being "scrutinized" by the Department of Education.
I don't know if the WaPo's journalistic integrity has been compromised by this; but I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that the WaPo doesn't want to press too hard on the Administration when the part of its business that brings in 58% of the revenue is on the table.
CBS has found that this practice has been going on since at least 2008. Back then, it was called "Wide Receiver."
From another indictment dated 12/08:
From another indictment dated 12/08:
ATF Special Agents conducted surveillance, recorded firearms transactions, and identified the dates and times that the conspirators herein cross the international border.