Armed strangers: Good or bad?

Thumper

New member
A CHL license in this state is proof of at least minimal safety training. I'll accept that on a provisional basis until I get to know you better.

That's just it, John...a basic human right isn't dependent on your approval.

I think you and I basically agree on a lot of this, but we disagree here:

If you don't approve of others (yes, even those you don't happen to know) being armed, then by definition, you are anti Second Amendment.
 

OF

New member
A CHL license in this state is proof of at least minimal safety training. I'll accept that on a provisional basis until I get to know you better.
Now were separating the men from the boys (no offense intended). The 'Training Requirement' vs. the 'No Training Requirement' crowds. This has been discussed here (TFL) at length many times before.

johninaustin: I didn't have a training requirement for my CCW. Where does that put me? If I felt like giving my (never-touched-a-gun) Grandmother a .38 tomorrow to protect herself, how would you be with that?

The fact of the matter is that I do not ask for nor do I require your (or anyone else's) leave to carry my weapon. You can deny me my weapon on your property, of course. But the question remains:

How is that not exactly the anti- position on gun rights?

Can someone please answer the question?

Kantuc has bowed out with his 'eye of the beholder' relatavistic response (or non-response as the case may be).

- Gabe
 

Tamara

Moderator Emeritus
You know, "proper training" to prove you don't do anything boneheaded with a gun, kind of like what the military and police get... ;)
 

johninaustin

New member
Ah, Thumper, I might see the problem. Self preservation is a basic human right. This may or not involve guns. Everyone has this right.

RKBA is a enumerated right. This does not necessarily involve self defense/self preservation. Lots of people own guns for more than self defense. Everyone has this right also.

My contention is that in my presence, where you came up to me a stranger, my right to self preservation is a greater concern to me than your 2nd amendment rights are at that time.

Am I infringing on your rights by wanting to see if you have your act together? No, I don't think so. I'm not depriving you of anything. You are quite free to do anything you want outside of my presence.

I'm sorry guys, but just blindly trusting someone for no other reason than he's carrying a gun just goes against the grain.

I suppose I'm going to have to live with the knowledge that I'm an anti-gunner. This is going to be a lot of work, since I have to tell all those students I'm starting paperwork to revoke their carry permits, and I'm going to have to put a lot of ad's in the paper to sell off all these guns, gun safes, and reloading stuff. Granted, it will open up two rooms in the house, and maybe I can get a refund on all those donations to the NRA, SAS, and SAF. Maybe TSRA will reimburse me for all the volunteer work. :D :D
 

Thumper

New member
No refund, John...like I said: We agree on a lot here.

Fine...you don't trust someone without proof. Hey, I can understand that point of view.

BUT: Would you deny people the right to carry? Simply because you don't know them? I don't think you would. Some here have made it plain that they would.
 

Red Label

New member
You blindly trust people every time you get on the road, or fly on an airline, or... All just because they are licensed (as far as you TRUST them to be).

No, that's not just like someone in your home packing. But it's these blanket statements about not trusting ANYONE you don't know with a gun that are frustrating (and scaring) me.
 

jwise

New member
Regarding:

"I'm sorry guys, but just blindly trusting someone..."

Like I said, it's a trust issue, not a gun issue.
 

johninaustin

New member
No, anybody can carry.

Maybe I'm just a product of my own paranoid existence. :D :D

To use your road example, I ride a bike. 94 BMW. (You Harley guys don't start) :D I fully expect the other drivers to run me down any second. Trust them right off? Heck no. After I get to know them? Sure.

Edited because I keep getting kicked offline.:p
 

Red Label

New member
BTW... I tust ALL of YOU. I figure that if you are passionate about firearms enough to be here, then you are most probably safe and competant shooters. The gangsta wanna-be's ain't hangin out here. So does my trust of you (who I have not even seen) make be foolish and stupid? I'd bet that it does to some of you. So be it. I believe that it takes a certain amount of faith in people and trust to make the free world go round. And without that, it's a police state...
 

kantuc2

New member
Nah, I didn't bow out Gabe, the electricity went off and I have been to lazy to crawl under the table and plug my computer into the APC. Fixed that so am ready to proceed.
After 50 plus years on this planet better than thirty of them packing I have developed a set of rules. Among them are:
Leave your muddy boots on the mat by the door and hang your dripping wet poncho on the hook. If you bring your dog, put him in the back yard. You may walk on my lawn, but don't park your car on it. I am in charge of the grill unless I give you permission and you don't drink alcohol or do drugs at my house. Don't insult my wife or attempt to grope her. I have my reasons for these rules and none of them are based on being anti anything. The same with your weapon. When you leave my house I don't care what you do what you carry or how you carry it, what your dog does or the condition of your shoes. Because I have these rules for my house, I will live by yours and more than likely apply my own as well. When and where I grew up polite company did not walk into a house armed, weapons were left at the door in a rack or hanging by a hook. That included my two uncles who were police officers, service belts hung on pegs by the door until it was time to go. I don't impose my rules on you while you are in public. Keep in mind trust is earned and the earning comes by following the rules. If that makes me anti then so be it.
 

scorn

New member
The fact is, if you want to uphold our Rights, you have to do your part to uphold everyone's and to be an example to the community. Just like any other Right, you have to uphold everyone's all the time or else it diminishes. Fact is, if you don't trust others around you to carry guns, then why should anyone trust you to carry one anywhere?
Ever heard of "leading by example"?


What kind of message does it send to the community if gun owners won't even trust each other to carry guns!?!

At any given place and time we could have CCW on the voters ballot, meanwhile citizens driving by a gun shop see a sign on the front saying "no loaded guns allowed", conveying that gun owners don't trust others to carry guns around them...then how do you think these voters are going to feel about people carrying loaded guns everywhere else?

(Pardon me if I reposted part of my post in the other thread, but I feel it is the crux of the matter).
 

Thumper

New member
Hey, Kantuc2...

Would you rather we talk about property rights?

Maybe rules of YOUR house and whether property rights apply?

How 'bout we talk about whether or not you have the right to dictate rules on your property?

Or maybe you'd rather talk about property rights.

Have you read any of this?

You see, some have continued to wave the "property rights" non issue around after I have personally agreed at least 8 times.

This post is nine.

The title of the post is: Armed strangers: Good or bad?

We are NOT talking about your living room.
 

El Rojo

New member
Ah, I guess I will be late to work! I think JohninAustin really sees the light, I just think like he says, he is overly paranoid, just like many of us.

There is a contradiction here though JohninAustin. You believe your right to self-preservation supercedes other people's own right to self-preservation. Why do I say this? Well if I come over to your house, I know you are going to have guns around. Why should I leave myself defenseless against you? Why should I trust you to be reliable and safe around your own firearms in your house? What if you get a hold of a 12 gauge and suddenly its evil power takes hold of you and you decide to off the red-headed guest?

I don't think you would ever do this. However! You are not willing to trust me initially with a firearm in your home. Your distrust of me would require me to trust you. That makes no sense. I would have to trust you enough to not be armed while you are armed. You are expecting me to do the very same thing you would not do with me.

Does your contradiction make sense now? I don't necessarily blame you for your position. Everyone wants to be safe. The anti's want to be safe. They attempt to disarm everyone but the elite in an attempt to do so. When everyone is disarmed, no one except the armed are safe. So a smart politician like Diane Fientstein not only disarms everyone, she finds a loophole to arm herself. That gives her all of the power. You seek that same power with a policy of disarmament. Again, that is your right in your home, but I find it so very condradicting.

As has been said numerous times. It comes down to trust. I trust my fellow gun owners with a watchful and cautious eye. If they start to do something that is not safe, I am going to tell them about it in a very nice and compasionate way. I will make them aware of the bad things they are doing in an attempt to keep them from doing it again. I would never tell them that they must trust me when I don't trust them. I don't know if that is so much hypocritical as it is contradictory. It depends if you do it knowing you are asking them to do something you wouldn't do or if you do it because you just want to be safe and don't realize what an impossible task you are asking of them.

When I walked over to a friends house for bible study Sunday, I was armed. I walked into his house, went straight to the bedroom closet and placed the Glock on the top shelf. Is that his policy? No. I just do it because I don't need it on his living room floor. Him or his wife never say anything about it. One time I was over at a well respected friend's father's house. I was joking about something and I drew my Glock and pointed it at the wall for some reason. He being a range master chewed me out right then and there. "I deal with idiots all day long with guns. If you are going to have that keep it holstered or take it out to the car." I started thinking about that situation last night and now I feel pretty stupid about it. That was in my young days of concealed carry. It was an important lesson. He didn't implement a ban on concealed carry in his house, he simply told me the rules and expected me to abide by them.

Again this has nothing to do with property rights!!! You have the right to tell people not to bring guns to your house. There is no arguing about it, so why bother stating the obvious.
 

scorn

New member
Would any of you ask a Police Officer to set his gun on the mantle as he came into your home?
Do you think a business like Wal Mart should demand that Police Officers check their guns in at the front?

Why not? And why is this an "absurd" statement? <----Rhetorical quesions

Answer: simply becasue we are used to seeing police officers with guns so we are okay with it. ]

But the fact is, police officers have scary little training with their guns. They are no more skilled with their guns nor no more able to judge when to use it than anyone else. But for some reason no one gets jumpy when cops ("strangers" to us) walk around with guns, simply because we are used to it.
 

kantuc2

New member
Thumper, for the second or third or maybe the fourth time, I have no feeling what so ever one way or another about anyone stranger or otherwise when they are not on my property. If you (who are a stranger by the way since we have never met) want to carry, run around naked, dance down the street or what ever turns your crank please feel free to do so. In fact I give you my blessing. :p
 

OF

New member
My contention is that in my presence, where you came up to me a stranger, my right to self preservation is a greater concern to me than your 2nd amendment rights are at that time.
How is this not prior restraint? I have done nothing to cause you to believe that I pose a threat to you. The fact that I am armed makes you uneasy, so you disarm me when you have the power to do so.

Again, how is that not the anti- position? Show me the difference.
Leave your muddy boots on the mat by the door..
Kantuc, we have been over and over this. You are well within your rights to deny me my weapon on your property. I do not believe there is any confusion on that issue. Your house, your rules.

I guess I won't be at any BBQ's at your place, though. I come armed, as is my right as a free man. I will not be disarmed for no good reason, and your uneasiness with my being armed does not constitute a good reason, in my book.

It's a regrettable situation.

- Gabe
 

Red Label

New member
... (Sound of applause)...

Ahhh... Now that's better. I see that we are finally getting the point that this is NOT about property rights. Good. You have finally answered Thumper's question. You (kantuc2)
support his or my right to carry in public. This is good. That makes you PRO and NOT Anti. See? Now why was that so hard? ;)
 

Leatherneck

New member
As far as I can see, your rights do not depend on my agreeing with them. Your rights are your rights. Same as mine. Simple. Now take a deep breath and shift topics to "house rules" or "threat management" or something, but put it in a different thread, please.:rolleyes:
 
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