Annealing: Harbor Freight propane torch 3 burner + hose

RC20

New member
I used the torch/drill dull red method for a few years and in excess of 15 - 20 reloads on some Lapua Palma SRP brass I never had a case failure and shot many a .25 and .3 MOA group at 100. I might spin the .308 barrel back on my model 12 this winter and shoot some of that old Lapua Palma and see how it puts em on paper in some FTR matches just for grins

You did not have case failure because that while you over shot the anneal zone on the tip, you did not make the base soft.

Conflating the two is possibly bad for someone who does not understand this and heats up the whole case to those excessive temps.

As for your shooting, that is your take, others disagree and I go with the people that shoot that stuff in the low areas day in and day out and win matches doing so.

You continue to put people at risk that see your stuff and don't know any better.

I think that is irresponsible. I also think you have enough technical background to know that and I don't understand why you persist.

Unclenick has repeatably posted data on annealing and what temps it occurs at and what temps (and times) that it makes brass soft and you keep trying to undermine those facts.
 

hounddawg

New member
well RC I guess I am just a bad person to take the word of experts and people with close to 50 years of metallurgy experience over cracker barrel wisdom, hear say and my cousin knows a guy who....stories. Everything I post is referenced to actual scientific tests performed under laboratory conditions. I am not just pulling this stuff out of my butt

you want to cuss someone out then email this guy it is his paper I am linking. You tell him he is full of it if you want to.

http://www.georgevandervoort.com/

now maybe some on here have more experience in annealing than I do but I seriously doubt anyone has more knowledge than this guy does

edit here is the link to the paper once again, I suggest that people read it and make their own judgements or do further research and ask some experts. Me I just play it real safe and let my annealing machine gather dust. Never split a neck and get SD's in the single digits. When I miss it is me not the ammo

https://vacaero.com/information-res...rmation-and-annealing-of-cartridge-brass.html
 
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Marco Califo

New member
Conflating the two is possibly bad for someone who does not understand this and heats up the whole case to those excessive temps.
Is that a big problem in Alaska? Or anywhere? And is your unsupported arguing going to educate anyone.
Quoting myself:
Heat the shoulders of each casing in the U to desired degree.
My regard for your contribution to this thread was flat-lining at zero until it went way south. I personally would rather you post elsewhere.
Why don't you start your own thread about the perils of cooking entire cases at 2500 degrees fahrenheit. I promise I won't post there.
Have a nice day!
 

RC20

New member
And you think he knows more about this specif subject than Unclenick?

Selective information taken out of context is not the same as definitive information in a specif subject area.

What you gloss over is the transition from a properly annealed neck and shoulder to an over temp situation where the grain structure may continue to change but the proprieties are past a transition point and any change is no longer relevant. It may technically change, but its now simply soft brass (hopefully neck only)

It will not longer work harden back and stays forever soft, period. If you can argue that then you think the Sun Rises in the West.

In this case you are putting others at risk and not even yourself.

When you risk someone else with misleading information, then you tread into dangerous ground. That is not what this forum is intended to be about. Frankly for a very intelligent person I can't fathom why you are doing this. You don't anneal, decided its worthless and then continue putting out expert take on it.

You also ignore the fact that I have explained why you are where you are with your cases.

You took your necks and shoulders to soft. Of course they won't crack, they can't work harden, they are PERMANENTLY SOFT.

Short of melting the brass down and staring over, its not going to change.

I would think you would be humble in the face of trillions of rounds of ammo loaded by a wide variety of of ammunition makers for over 100 years knowing what they are doing vs some guy spouting theoretical non cartridge case specif information.

You think they spend millions of dollars a year each annealing their cases for no return?

I once had a guy who claimed election fraud and posted links. Each site was a self serving election conspiracy theorist operation.

so you can keep posting a non relevant link or post one that specifically address the situation and refutes your contention. Its called Cherry picking.

I know enough about nuclear power to know you did not pre determine what your plant chemistry was and treat it based on an assumption.

You tested it and treated it based on the results of what you got back.

You were taught that you did not assume, you might suspect but you did not assume.

Maconda in the end was an assumption that a gauge was wrong. Called prejudgmental bias.
 

RC20

New member
My regard for your contribution to this thread was flat-lining at zero until it went way south. I personally would rather you post elsewhere.
Why don't you start your own thread about the perils of cooking entire cases at 2500 degrees fahrenheit. I promise I won't post there.
Have a nice day!

Obviously you and HD don't care for facts nor the consequences of where it can go.

I do not care a hoot about what you think of me.

What I do care about is others who look at those temps and may then not realize what the end result of a soft case down in the base area is.

You of course are welcome to your opinion, you are not welcome to your own alternative facts no matter what KAC says.
 

RC20

New member
I will stand corrected, he specifically labels it as cartridge brass.

https://vacaero.com/information-res...rmation-and-annealing-of-cartridge-brass.html

He is also wrong according to every other expert I have read on the subject.

Why he has made those errors I have not a clue. I won't conjecture.

I will refer you to this string.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=585870&page=2

And this one with Unclenicks Chart:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=601427&highlight=anneal
 
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hounddawg

New member
@ RC I am not sure how a scientific paper on the annealing of 70/30 cartridge brass is out of context since the subject of the thread is annealing 70/30 cartridge brass. It is confusing though when you read of case manufacturers recommending using 450 Templaq 1/4 below the shoulder a indicator. Safest method is just don't mess with it. In my experience there was no upside to it

my old torch annealed Lapua Palma SRP, damn near antiques now and apologies if I am more grouchy and long winded than usual, I need some time on the range and for the last few months that has been sparse
 

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RC20

New member
Ok, I can get grouch and out of sorts, I am coming out of the flu and not being all that polite either. And I am an antique.

The point is that when we talk about temps that are high (or long term exposure to lower ones) then a caveat should be put in about softening the base.

My point was and continues to be, data without correlation is a house without a foundation.

Temps that were listed are so high as to be dangerous to someone that does not understand the context.

When all your other information says something different (and mine does) then you have to suspect a single piece of info that is out of phase.

We both have seen people who were going to put cases in an oven on 500 deg.

As for the picture, by sight I would asses case 2 and 6 about right and the other vertical ones over cooked.

I tend to go on the low side and do it more often.
 
The full answer to the discrepancy is long-winded, too. I'll try to post it tomorrow. But the short answer boils down to that author's use of 50% reduced brass while the seminal study of this subject done as part of the war effort in 1945, uses 70% and 75% cold-worked brass, coming closer to representing cartridge cases. Some researches have reduced brass as much as 90% to study the finest grain structure and annealing effects of it. This lowers the recrystallization temperature significantly. Interestingly, one Australian study found really hard brass subjected to just 250°C (482°F) for 6 hours or more was immune to ammonia-induced season cracking.
 

BBarn

New member
I looked into annealing brass a bit awhile back and I came away with:

1) The vast majority of annealing curves utilize long annealing times, with typical annealing times of several minutes to a few hours. Annealing time/temperature characteristics appear to approximately follow the Arrhenius model, so an increase of 160F would reduce the annealing time from 1 hour to about 7 seconds.

2) The copper and zinc content of brass can vary, as much as plus or minus several percent each. And the relative percentages of copper and zinc will change the annealing time/temperature requirements to achieve the same results.

3) Tempilaq is not time sensitive, so while it will indicate the approximate temperature reached, it doesn't indicate how long the material remained at that temperature.

4) The percentage of cold work on brass affects the annealing time/temperature required to restore it to a specific ductility and strength.

5) The ductility and strength curves change rather abruptly at certain annealing temperatures. Typical curves of those characteristics are very steep over a range of about 180 degrees F. As a result, achieving a precise, known level of annealing can be difficult. The annealing results may be relatively repeatable, but exactly how much re-crystallization, reduction in strength, and increase in ductility have taken place would probably require microscopic analysis and testing after annealing.
 
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hounddawg

New member
But the short answer boils down to that author's use of 50% reduced brass while the seminal study of this subject done as part of the war effort in 1945, uses 70% and 75% cold-worked brass

you need to reread that study Nick

from the link, 3rd paragraph

Specimens of hot extruded and fully annealed cartridge brass were cold reduced 15, 30, 40, 50, 60 and 70% in thickness. Specimens were mounted and polished and etched using the commonly used B&W etchant of equal parts of ammonium hydroxide and hydrogen peroxide (3% conc.) mixed fresh and used by swabbing. Figures 3 a and b, 3 e and f, and 3 i and j show B&W images of longitudinal planes from the annealed (Fig. 3 a) and the cold worked cartridge brass specimens (30, 40, 50, 60 and 70% cold reductions). Figures 3 c and d, 3 g and h, and 3 k and l show color images using Klemm’s III tint etch and polarized light for the cold worked specimens (15, 30, 40, 50, 60 and 70% cold reductions). These images reveal that the grains are becoming elongated with cold reduction, with increasing length/width ratio with increasing cold reduction, plus greater amounts of slip deformation. Figure 4 shows the increase in Vickers hardness (100 gf load) from 57.9 ± 4.8 HV in the starting fully annealed condition to 231.9 ± 7.9 HV after a 70% cold reduction in thickness, a fourfold increase in hardness.

BTW for two or three years now I have been waiting on one of the annealing machine manufacturers to sponsor a test showing how home "annealing" does anything to improve accuracy or case life. Still crickets.

Litz did a small test in Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting Vol II but has yet to follow up with a more extensive test. His initial tests showed no improvements in either velocity SD or brass life

another study showing annealing time in minutes, not seconds

http://che.uri.edu/course/che333/Annealing of 70-30 Brass.pdf

350C = 650F
400C = 752F
450C = 842F

whats the right answer, damnifiknow. I do know this though, I have never split a case neck and I use cases into the double digits or until the primer pockets loosen and my groups are tight, my SD's low and case neck splits are non existent without any annealing and that is what counts for me

last edit - if you guys can find any scientific or technical paper or study showing where annealing brass can be accomplished in seconds, please provide a link.
 
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hounddawg

New member
Now to further confuse the issue I dug around and found this dissertation using Lapua .308 brass


https://web.archive.org/web/2016013...x_htm_files/Ryan Stevenson - Dissertation.pdf

my takeaway after slogging through all 71 pages is that to effectively anneal both time and temp needs to be precisely controlled and is completely useless otherwise. Anything involving a drill , a propane torch and human judgement is worthless. Even at best a anneal may give a slightly increased case life but the accuracy involves a million other factors and cannot be measured

I do not see anyway to accomplish a proper anneal without using some machine to get the case in the same place every anneal and control the time the case is annealed. You can probably accomplish that with a Annie (maybe, I have never actually used one) or with a AMP otherwise it is a waste of time.

As far as the temps go I am more confused than ever. This paper shows significant changes with only 750 F for a few seconds, other studies that I have read/linked say higher temps and longer times are needed.

edit - I guess I could have bought a AMP for what I just paid for a new rifle but somehow I think the new rifle will give me a lot more pleasure and entertainment. I think I am going to get ready to go to the range, to heck with this "angels dancing on the of a pin" BS I am going to go make some holes in paper and see how close together I can get then
 
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Hounddawg,

As I commented in another thread, I think we are at least partly on an apples-to-oranges comparison in a couple of ways. The shooter’s interest is in partial annealing (stress-relief) to make the brass more malleable and not in the grain growth that occurs with true annealing. In George Vander Voort’s paper, go down past the first seven rows of metallographs and look at the plot labeled Figure 10 on the right end. You will find it is not in disagreement with the other sources. It shows the Vickers hardness number for a 50% reduced area (RA) brass sample dropping dramatically when a 30-minute heat exposure starts to exceed 500°F (260°C). His text says he doesn’t see a change in the crystal structure in the metallographs until above the higher temperatures mentioned, but just because you don’t get a visible change doesn’t mean there is no measurable change. Indeed, this comports with what you found in the Matweb link. Note the Physical Properties table of grain growth (something you can see in a metallograph) starts at about 698°F at 1-hour exposure up at the top, but the Mechanical Properties table of tensile strength under it starts showing a change at just 392°F at 1-hour exposure (from the bottom up). The caveat here is these numbers only apply to the sample hardness they started the annealing with. The MatWeb sample was quite hard and past the 50% RA hardness, so the start temperature was lower. The loss of hardness and increase in malleability at these temperatures is what makes putting brass in a hot domestic oven, head and all, unsafe.

I can see Vander Voort used 50% reduction in area (RA) and 70% RA, but H. L. Walker used 70% cold-worked (CW) brass, which means 70% of the volume of the sample was cold-worked grains. The two correlate pretty well, but I am not clear exactly how well as the numbers get above 50%. Obviously, you cannot have 100% RA as that would be zero area leaving you with no sample to test. Below 50% RA % CW lags % RA, as your last paper illustrates. The author reports using samples that are 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50% RA. His last graph reports these samples as being 7.4, 15.7, 25.9, 33.8, and 47.2% CW. So, logically, you have to go beyond 70% RA to get to 70% CW, but I don’t know for sure nor how far. The cracking problem would make this difficult to do with rollers, but I’ve found one paper that goes to 90% RA by roller², albeit with some unusual treatment.

Here’s why what Walker found matters to recrystallization:

"In accordance with recrystallization law"…"—which states that increased strain on the metal decreases the annealing temperature—the time to reach complete recrystallization at 450°C {for} 21% CW {brass} was 4 hours whereas at 42% CW at {that} same annealing temperature it only took 15 seconds to reach complete recrystallization."¹​

Those are not the CW’s or temperature we are concerned with, but you can see the principle at work. Merely doubling the CW produced a nearly 1000:1 reduction in the required exposure time to achieve recrystallization at that temperature. Obviously, if you wanted the 42% CW sample to take 4 hours to recrystallize like the 21% CW sample did, you would have to use a lower temperature. This is why comparisons hold either the temperature or the exposure time constant. By the time you get to 70% CW, the drop is greater³.

So, brass doesn’t have just one annealing temperature. How hot you have to get and for how long varies with how hard the brass is to start with. Ditto for stress-relief, based on the different tables. I suspect this may be one reason Litz didn’t find performance differences in cases annealed every load cycle. The brass wasn’t getting hard enough in one load cycle for the annealing temperature he had for it to make any difference. It needed to be hotter or longer.

The other reason Litz didn’t find a change is evident on the MatWeb page of properties. Note the Modulus of Elasticity (Young’s Modulus) has just one number for all of it. Look up MatWeb’s pages for different brass tempers and you will find it is the same number for all of them. It doesn’t change with hardness. This number describes the elastic stiffness of the material within its elastic (no permanent deformation) range. It is how hard you would have to pull on a unit length of it to stretch it a unit length. That’s not physically possible to do with metals without exceeding their elastic range (exceeding their yield point), but it is projected from smaller amounts of stretching because the number is used in engineering calculations. The fact this number is constant means that when you seat a bullet into a case with interference-fit, as long as you stretch the case mouth the same amount and it doesn’t exceed the yield of the brass, you will get the same amount of hoop strain (circumferential tension) and stress in the neck. That means you will get the same amount of force applied to the bullet to create friction in the grip on it no matter what hardness the brass has unless it is so extremely soft that insertion exceeds its yield, a number that gets lower as hardness drops and malleability increases. Short of that extreme, it leaves you with nothing different to affect start pressure or powder burn.

As to amateur annealing, if a case neck work-hardens to the point its cohorts are splitting, it will have its life extended by partial annealing (stress-relief). Splitting happens because the small percentage of stretch that occurs expanding it during sizing and seating and firing it becomes great enough to exceed its elongation-at-break limit, and a few percents of elongation can do it only if the brass is very hard. So If you can just get the neck and throat up past the 392°F point for any length of time, it will start to take the edge off the stress and reduce hardness. If you don’t get it hot enough long enough for complete stress-relief you will have to do it again more often, but incomplete stress-relief still lengthens the elongation before break number. This is why something like candle flame annealing works at all.

I don’t think exact partial annealing is critical because Young’s Modulus stays the same. The drop in hardness increases rapidly with temperature past its threshold. You can over-anneal a case to the point you weaken the brass and exceed the elastic range by seating a bullet, but other than that extreme, it’s going to be hard to tell from load performance. Just as with under-annealing, you wind up having to re-stress-relieve very soft cases more often to keep them from splitting because their elastic range gets too short. Elongation-before-break is the limiter at the low end and loss of elastic range (too low a yield point) is the limiter at the high end and are the brass life enemies produced by under and over annealing. Manufacturers aim to land between those extremes, and that seems to have a range to it that keeps the process from being too critical. Most people would like to achieve an ideal complete stress-relief without grain-growth because then they don’t have to do it so often to preserve their brass.

Note, too, that if you minimize case working and have a chamber with a fairly tight neck that doesn’t let the brass expand much, you may never have to anneal. If you can keep the neck expansion down to a percent or less, you may never exceed the elongation-before-break of the brass even when it is work-hardened.


¹ H. L. Walker. "Grain Sizes Produced by Recrystallization
and Coalescence in Cold-rolled Cartridge Brass,"
Eng. Exp. Station, 1945, vol. 43., p.7.


² David S. Saunders, Report MRL-R-778, “The Low-temperature Annealing of 7.62 Cartridge Brass Cases: Stress Corrosion Susceptibility”, Defence Science and Technology Oganisation, Materials Research Laboratories, Melbourne, Australia, June 1980.

³ John Kline, The University of Illinois at Chicago, Department of Civil Engineering and Materials, paper CME 470, Recrystallization Behavior of 70/30 Brass, 2016, p 13.¶ 1.
 

hounddawg

New member
well Nick the bottom line for me is

1) I will not get consistent annealing results without dropping major bucks for a AMP

2) annealing needs to be done after every firing for consistency

3) annealing may give me one or two more reloadings per case but has no measurable effect on accuracy

3) buy new brass every barrel change out and have had no necks splits with brass double digit firings the savings would only be a couple of cents per case use it would take a long time (20 years?) to see any cost savings

4) it just ain't worth arguing over, people will believe whatever they want to believe even when confronted by facts and studies and reloaders will always be looking for that magic tool or procedure to get better groups when the best tool for that was invented a long time ago. That tool is the humble wind flag
 

Marco Califo

New member
Thanks Unclenick

Thanks Unclenick, I truly appreciate your knowledge and thorough explanation of the research and literature, and for moderating this forum.

But, for reloaders, and the tasks at hand, annealing LC 7.62 for these purposes:
--What is the target temp and duration for annealing LC 7.62 for converting to 7mm-08?
--What is the target temp and duration for annealing machine gun fired 7.62 in prep for sizing back to 308 SAAMI specs?
--What is the never exceed too hot temp that has to be avoided?

Granted the process, and home methods, are not an exact science, and results will vary. But, rules of thumb are better than ignorance. Would heading shoulder and neck until Templaq 700 f. reacts, and then immediately dropping, into water, or not water, be a sound home plan? Would Templaq 750 f be better stop point? I think duration by these methods should not exceed 2 - 5 seconds.

FWIW, I am not a competition shooter, and for me hitting a steel plate at 500 yards somewhat reliably is my definition of very good accuracy.
 

RC20

New member
HD:

I have a different take and I think Unclenicks (wow, now that is a writeup I can be in awe of) says it.

IE, the partial anneal does not have to be perfect though you have to anneal more often.

So, I hold mine down in the 750 area and have had no split necks since. Frankly that is all I want, shame to see good brass go because of something that over time can pay for itself .

The other issue was that bullets were getting really hard to insert and set. That seems to be a not good thing for a lot of reason and the anneal keeps that to normal.

I am using the Annie which is not tuned like the AMP is. It cost a lot less and the results are what I wanted.

I make no claims for accuracy improvements, I can't shoot that good to start with let alone consistently. You could not see that if its there for my noise level.
 

RC20

New member
Marco:

I am going to throw in and you can discount it of course. I am not anywhere close to Unclenick but I have worked out methods that do work consistently for my setup.

Each method involves different temps and time lines so no one pat answer. Also equipment (Annie in my case, pun intended) has variables of power supply and output, how it gets held in the induction zone, room temp and brass itself and how clean it is inside.

My working area for the Annie is 750 degrees. I don't want to get my brass permanently soft so I do an anneal ever 5 rounds (some bench rest do it each round)

I use a jig to set up the case and have a consistent height. I runs around 2.5 seconds of heat application. I use a templestick crayon and test temps as the induction stops.

I also look at the color change, make sure no orange shows (in the dark) and I make sure the color polishes off.

No single item in the work is definitive. All of them are used to try to get 750 or so for a short time and I am not after perfect, a small variable and you can go too soft.

The paint on does not work in the induction area. Its consistent interferes and you get bad data. Its fine for ensuring down below you did not get to hot.

You do not need water, Done right the heat does not go down to the base. That does not mean you should not check that. I have and satisfied no variable up top will do that with my method.

As I do not use a torch I will make no claims or methods for that application. Mine is purely on induction and Annie specifically with its noted possible variations.

AMP looks to be a good if costly machine and maybe more precise, not having used one I don't have anything other than a detached take on it.
 
At this point, Hounddawg and I agree pretty well on how to better spend our time and money, at least during good weather. I have enough cases not to need to shoot any of them more than once in a season anyway, so annealing and the like is an "it's-winter-and-I'm-bored” activity for me. And he is right, for the reasons I described and maybe for some I missed, that it doesn't affect interior ballistics or resulting POI precision as far as anyone can tell. So, it really is just about increasing case neck life or for improving formability. If I were competing in benchrest, I'd probably feel differently about regular annealing as I'd likely have a couple of dozen carefully selected and prepped and lovingly nursed cases that I used over and over again and wanted to get 50 reloads out of.


Marco,

If you followed the effect of hardness, you need to know how hard the brass is to figure out an optimal stress-relief time and temperature. It's not something most of us are equipped to measure (though a couple of amateur testers have shown up along the way). The shooter mostly just has to aim at a good temperature for reasonably worked brass and figure softer brass won't be much affected by it and doesn’t need to be anyway. If they are hard enough, it will significantly improve them.

Fred Barker's article in Precision Shooting Magazine in July 1996 covers the practical bases well. He reports the first metallurgically sound article he ever saw on the topic was William Dresser's in the December 1962 issue of the American Rifleman. Dresser pointed out a neck hard enough to be in danger of splitting saw sluggish annealing by 500°F but it was getting quick at about 700°F. He dotted 700°F Tempilaq on several locations on a case, including the neck and shoulder, and then used a propane torch to heat them and he quenched them in the water (probably unnecessary) when the dots on the neck melted. Those on the shoulder were to be sure he didn’t overheat. The neck heated with a torch can easily overshoot to 750°F using 700°F Tempilaq because it has a temperature pause while it thaws at the melting point just like ice does, but the brass not covered by it keeps heating.

Barker next pointed to an article by the late Bob Milek. Writing in the June 1972 issue of Shooting Times, Milek wrote that he and the late Steve Herrett were having trouble forming .30/44 Herrett cases by necking down .44 Remington Magnum brass. Herrett was using the old eyeball method of heating brass to a dull red in a pan of water that kept the heads from overheating and then quenching (probably by knocking the cases over in the pan). But the cases still cracked after two or three loadings. Herrett was getting the grains too large and making the brass weak. Milek figured out that if they used the dip-in-molten-lead method and cut the temperature down well below red to about 750°F, the premature splitting stopped.

Based on Milek and Herrett’s experience, I would say 750°F is your upper limit. The dip-in-molten bullet alloy method is the one handloaders can most easily keep tight control of temperature with anyway. You get the melt to your desired temperature and dip the cases in graphite (to prevent the metal soldering to them) and then submerge the portion you are annealing in the metal. An Arrhenius function I worked out based on data from various sources suggests 10 seconds at 725°F should do it. At 750°F, it is just 3.7 seconds. Both assume the metal is up to temperature at the start of the count, so you want to allow another second for that. Anywhere in there should do, and you’ll find modern casting pots with PID controllers will make this easy to do. Both Lyman and RCBS market them now. You can make your own with an eBay PID controller and solid-state relay (SSR) kit if you like electronics projects, and apply them to the most basic Lee pot if you don't have a lead pot already.
 

hounddawg

New member
I must say this was a informative thread. Still the one thing that bugs me is the time thing. When I annealed the cases were in the flame for only a few seconds. In all of these links and papers changes to the hardness take minutes or hours. Not 15 seconds
 

RC20

New member
Seems odd.

You can anneal at 500 degrees and take (what 30 minute or an hour?) Issue is you are also heating up the rest of the case. Bad Bad Bad. So if you had a tray WITH FLOWING WATER water in it and holes that you put up into an oven you could do it (lot of caveat do not put cases in an oven in a tray of water, BAD BAD BAD)

So its nothing more simple than your Torch is HOTTER. Ergo, time in heat is shorter as its down into the second range at 750-800. Keep in mind heat TO the case is not the same as heat output.

An air-only torch will burn at around 1,995 °C (3,623 °F)
Its both temperature and time, not one or the other.

On the other hand, inductive heats UP fast, so it to is in the 750 -800 as long as you keep the time short (otherwise it keeps heating and MELTS down the end (yes I have pushed it to see)

Microwave oven heat is different than a Natural Gas oven, its more efficient. Inductive is more efficient (not enough to be a major cost difference)
 
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