AK47...? M16....? AR15...? Urban tactical

[Art Eatman]

Conformer, you have some good points, and some errors. For instance, yes, I'm predominantly a hunter and a bolt-action guy.

My grump about the SKS/AK stuff is not the guns, themselves. Most anything that shoots can be fun, and can be useful for hunting or self-defense. HEck, I've had an M1A Match Target, an HK 91, several AR-15s--and now have a Bushmaster Match Target. Garands. GI Carbines. Lotsa suchlike stuff. I've played with Mac10s and Mac9s and most every kind of pistol known to mankind. Turned a fair amount of money into fully-automatic noise.

My real gripe is with those who seem to believe deep down in their heart of hearts that ONLY a black gun is NECESSARY for "urban defense" and nothing else would work. Further, there is an attitude of absolute certainty that "when the SHTF" WILL occur.

I've read the NRA's "Armed Citizen" since it first started. I've been reading newspapers since WW II. I watched the TV coverage of the Watts riots and the LA riots. I've lived through the era of "Survivalism" and done a lot of reading; like all of us, I gave thought to Y2K. And that's why I made my shotgun comment--it has been true since before I was born in 1934.

So it's less the "black guns" bit than it is the mindset of some of their advocates.

, Art

 

[USMCsilver]

Conformer, I'll agree. You get some mud in it, and caughs as to where a AK will keep running.

Who cares.

I am not slopping through the mud with my AR-15's. I just like to shoot and I have one decked out for those SHTF reasons. And even then, mud will most likely not be too involved.

As if those of you cannot tell by my member name, I have had extensive training as an infantry Marine and I know what the AR15/M15 can handle. Been there, done that.

Those of you who don't like 'em, then don't shoot 'em. Those of you who do like them -- good, they are great rifles for practical use. I mean, who out there takes their AR-15 or AK47 out to battle every weekend? Exacly -- NOBODY!

 

[twoblink]

It's racism on the part of law makers. They want to oppress the "blacks". Hmm, wooden stock, oh, must be a "hunting gun". But you make it "black" and it's a "mall ninja" EVVVVIIILLL we must ban it, type of gun. It's pure racism on the part of our law makers. We all know it!

All kidding aside, I don't see the point either of all the accessories which weigh the gun down, and actually probably detracts it from it's primary goal, delivery of a bullet to the mo-fo down range.

My very very very stock M1A does it's job, does it well, and while I can make it mall ninja black, I think those who saw my gun would agree, it's beautiful and shouldn't be changed.

But of course, as a libertarian, if you want to put $3000 worth of accessories on you Ninja Gun, then not only shouldn't there be a law against it, if it makes you happy, I HIGHLY encourage you to do it. We are about, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happieness aren't we?

So do whatever you want to your gun that makes you happy.

Truth be told, I'm not a fan of scopes on a tactical rifle, I think scopes are meant for bolt actions. If you go iron sights, you only have about 300 yards range (unless you are some eagle eye) then you might have 500 yards, which I seriously doubt. So anything from AK to SKS, to mini-14, to AR15 will do just fine. Don't fall into the "7.62x39 vs .223" debate, because the range you will cover, it becomes very insignificant. And if you don't feel this is true, ask yourself this, "which would you rather be shot by, 7.62x39 or a .223"? Of course the correct answer is, neither. Both will ruin your day. I think the 308 is still a better round, and would recommend that, but I can tell you this, my SKS with 100 rounds on 10 stripper clips, I can carry without problems, i can carry all 100 rounds in 1 pocket. I don't feel I am under equipted if that is all I've got in hand when the **** hits the fan.

So before you dump $1600 on a gun, THINK first. If you still want to, then by all means do it. But $1600 will buy you 10 SKS's. Or 1 SKS and about 24000 rounds of ammo.

Albert

 

[Foxy]

I have yet to read of an instance in the last half-century or so where anything more than some handgun or most any kind of shotgun didn't prove sufficient for a homeowner to deal with Urban Bad Guys.

Korean shopkeepers during the LA riots? (Ok, they're not homeowners in that context, but still)

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

Art, Foxy made the point before I could but I know two people who will certainly disagree with you. One little Korean lady and her husband I know who owned a shop in south central LA, they kept theirs during the riots when their neighbors lost theirs because they had "assault" rifles at hand when their neighbors didn't. The second case I have direct knowledge was an Air Force couple down in Homestead Florida during hurricane Andrew. Their AR kept her safe during the rioting when he couldn't make it home for a week. I think either of those would scoff at your idea of a singleshot shotgun being equally suitable. The light carbine can do a lot the shotgun (even a repeater) can't.

As for my PROBABLE needs, I probably will never have need of the fire extingusher I keep in the kitchen but I don't figure I will get rid of that either. I will likely spend more on insurance I will never use than my thousands of dollars of guns I will never use, but I will enjoy the guns far more.

 

[uzi4me]

i like both the ar and ak.. i own an ak, and have fired my very good friends preban colt ALOT... as well as other friends' ar's..
and i will hands down, for my lifes sake, take an ak FIRST any day...
dont get me wrong, the ar is a superb firearm.. but i have seen to many jams in ar's.......and NEVER, EVER in my life saw an ak jam..
so lets review ..

the ar has the ak in the coolness factor BY FAR ... ... BUT .. you can literally run a handful of mud or sand in an ak and STILL after all that, fire the weapon with literally NO jams .. plus, they are so cheap ! .. i got the romanian a few months ago for $350 .. i got it in 7.62.. I LOVE IT ! .. DIRT cheap mags, fairly cheap 7.62, i mean .. what else can you ask for ?... not much ..
BUT .. i will STILL be purchasing a preban ar in the VERY NEAR FUTURE .. i have to .. ITS MY DESTINY ........

 

[Art Eatman]

Jake, Foxy: The LA riot scene where groups were involved were around stores, from what I read. Those stores I've ever been in, in high crime areas, commonly had more than one armed person around. (Other than those chains which IMO foolishly disallow armed clerks.) I never read of multi-BadGuy attacks on homes during that time.

I never read of group attacks after hurricane Andrew; I had friends there and followed the news accounts fairly closely. (I once worked where understanding hurricanes was important, so that also had me following the aftermath reports.) There were numerous reports of would-be looters passing by those houses where an owner was sitting on a front porch with pistol or shotgun. Jake, did your friend have to present her weapon to any group of potential looters?

Again, I'm not saying DON'T get an AR or AK clone or something of similar capability; I'm saying don't think that's the ONLY sort of thing that will work. And not everybody lives in areas where widespread rioting is probable, nor widespread disaster from natural phenomena--they got tornadoes in Kansas, not hurricanes.

As to probabilities, I, too, have insurance for home and car--and no fires, lawsuits nor wrecks. I also have quite a few guns which are truly anti-social to groups of Bad Guys, but they were later add-ons and I never have seen them as absolute necessities.

FWIW, Art

 

[CrociJA]

Hmmm...My "tactical rifles", number exactly two:
1. Bushmaster AR-15
2. DSArms SA-58 Medium Contour FN-FAL
I humped a 16' in the brush to know that it didn't like blanks, and I usually kept a barber brush in a decon kit box to wipe away sand and grit. I also learned not to over-oil.
Other than that when I did my part, the rifle did it's part. However I did prefer the SAW!
Especially when I could get ammo drums.
However as far as "penetration" goes, maybe that's why they issue SS109 to the troops?
Don't get me wrong I'm sure the AK is a great weapon (it would have to be considering its history and the number of continent/countries its used on). The AK was made specificially with the Soviet soldier and tactics in mind. Mass use of mechanized infantry, artillery and soldiers rapidly firing the AK's and than popping in a fresh magazine. The AK does not lend itself to a 300 meter shot (U.S. Army) or 500 meter shot (USMC). I'm sure there are exceptions but the M-16 (AR-15) is/was designed to fire a light round at high velocities with better accuracy than an AK. In retrospect, I'm sure the M96 would make an excellent replacement.
U.S. Military training, especially in the last few years (at least in my corner of the woods) also stressed making every shot count, in a MOUT environment this of course differs.
IMHO the only thing they have to do to the 16' series is design a HEAP round.
As far as urban combat goes a lot of it has to do more with sheer volume of firepower, coordinated movements, proper use of cover and concealment and lots of luck. Each room, street corner and window is an ambush waiting to happen.

Jon

 

[Conformer]

USMCsilver,
You are so right, like I said you don't have to worry about it your useing those guns for what I said they were for pictures. Now if you only knew some one in the movie industry lol

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

Art, the lady in Florida (hurricane Andrew) was not a group attack. It may not have been a group attack because of the guns present. The short version follows.

Husband is in the Air Force as an SP (security police), after the hurricane he is on shift 12-16 hours a day and often sleeps at the base. Being new to the area they were still on the list for base housing so they lived in a trailer court that was inhabited primarily by retired folks. Two older guys, retired servicemen, lived in the same trailer court and during the looting they both decided to provide security at the trailer court. They took two lawn chairs and sat out by the long entrance drive to their community (apparently it had only the one entrance). The wife would go out to visit and bring sandwiches and, following the husbands advice, carried his AR when she went. On day three a kid (14 yrs or so) carrying a box of wooden matches walks up to the entrance and turns down the drive. On seeing two older gentlemen, one with a .30 paratrooper carbine the other with a military marked Winchester mod 12 trench gun with bayonet, and a younger lady with an AR he stopped, turned and went back to the main road. Waving his hands briefly, a car cramed full of people puls up and a brief conversation takes place, the kid points back toward the armed three. The kid is pulled half into the open window and, with his legs still out the window, the car speeds down the road. Can you tell me the sight of three well armed people didn't convince them to go elsewhere? If the three were armed only with singleshot shotguns do you think they would have been willing to stand guard over their community? I don't doubt they would have been able to guard their home but they would not likely been motivated to guard the community as a whole. While I don't think two or three people with a single shot shotgun are of no deterrent value, it is nothing to the same number of people armed with high capacity military arms. The story was related to me by the husband so I can't claim it to be absolute fact, but I did see a picture of the three on the porch of a trailer, as I understand it the picture was taken a week or so after things calmed down. The three were armed with the guns mentioned, the short stocky guy on one end was wearing a korean war vertans cap. Makes sense to me.

There have been articles of a gunshop owner in Florida (I believe) who has used his privately owned M16 (not AR15) and S&W76 sub gun to defend his shop more than once. A home owner in Nevada used his AC556 to deal with a home invasion break in. Read Ayoobs articles and you will find a few more. I will certainly agree that these things are rare, possibly statistically irrelevent to all except those involved. If/when the search feature is on line again you will see that I have said more than once that I take a military view of things, I admit that. I will also agree that more mundane firearms will often do but if a military style firearm provides greater comfort to the owner that should not be discounted. I also believe the argument of the perception of the black gun in court hurting you is primarily crap. If the gun is similar to what the police use you can always say that you chose a gun you saw being the weapon of choice of your local police. For me, being in the service, I shoot my AR to maintain skill at arms so I keep mine handy at home. Good enough for the cops it must be the tool to use right. Besides if we (shooters) are heard to say that these are not needed for home defense then how can we justify keeping our rights?

 

[Art Eatman]

Jake, I dunno about thugs, but if I see three people "merely" armed with single-shot shotguns, I'm leaving...

Again, my main gripe is against the mindset that one MUST have semi-auto, etc. I don't question the efficacy.

Which raises a question: Which is truly safer, a complacent guy with his legal M16 who's sitting around waiting for something to happen, or a nervous guy with his handgun and some uncertainty if it's "enough gun"? (Assume equal skill.)

I read back in the 1980s, sometime or another, where a bunch of what might be called the "Seyfried Gang" did a funhouse run with pistols, against the clock for score. They repeated the run, only with Uzi-like full-auto guns. They scored higher with the pistols.

Which gets me back to what I so often post: Scenario, planning, alertness and skill-development with whatever weapon you own...

, Art

 

[CrociJA]

"There have been articles of a gunshop owner in Florida (I believe) who has used his privately owned M16 (not AR15) and S&W76 sub gun to defend his shop more than once."

I believe you are talking about Harry Beckwith's Guns on 441 outside of Micanopy, FL.

Not to throw any fuel on the flame, but I think that "event" with the kid has more to do with the fact that the citizens in question were armed. I should also stress that 99% of people cannot tell the difference if a "black rifle" is semi or not especially if they aren't close enough to see the selector lever.
So just because it's "full-auto" doesn't me a lot to me. In Andrew and Opal, ALL FLARNG who were issued M-16A1's had an aluminum restrictor plate mounted on the side, that prevented us from switching it to anything but "SAFE" and "SEMI".
It would be considered a court-martial offense to take it off.
Think the fact that an individual has a firearm and knows how to use it and has ammo (unlike the Federal troops) is really all you need to deter "badguys".

Jon

 

[CrociJA]

"There have been articles of a gunshop owner in Florida (I believe) who has used his privately owned M16 (not AR15) and S&W76 sub gun to defend his shop more than once."

I believe you are talking about Harry Beckwith's Guns on 441 outside of Micanopy, FL.

Not to throw any fuel on the flame, but I think that "event" with the kid has more to do with the fact that the citizens in question were armed. I should also stress that 99% of people cannot tell the difference if a "black rifle" is semi or not especially if they aren't close enough to see the selector lever.
So just because it's "full-auto" doesn't me a lot to me. In Andrew and Opal, ALL FLARNG who were issued M-16A1's had an aluminum restrictor plate mounted on the side, that prevented us from switching it to anything but "SAFE" and "SEMI".
It would be considered a court-martial offense to take it off.
Think the fact that an individual has a firearm and knows how to use it and has ammo (unlike the Federal troops) is really all you need to deter "badguys".

Jon

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

CrociJA, I think you missed my point. I don't believe those people would have ventured out of their houses to defend their neighborhood if they only had singleshot guns. I do agree with Art in that a single shot shotgun will do the job if YOU are up to the task but would you be as comfortable in doing so? The question remains, would a gang of 6 armed predatory criminals fear the three people mentioned as much if they were armed with break action rifles and shotguns? Would you be more willing to defend your neighbors with a Contender pistol or an M1 carbine? I would not feal underarmed with a leveraction .357 (for home defense) but would be happier with an autoloader with its higher capacity and faster reload. Not likely to need either feature but who wants to be the statistical anomoly.

I am with you Art, I don't want to face a decent shooter with a quality pellet gun but if you were to pull three average people at random, arm them each with a single shot and turn me loose with my carry gun it would be an even bet. I am only an above average shooter but most people suck. Study the psychology behind gangs and you will have reason to expect the irrational.

If the auto gives the shooter a greater level of comfort I believe that is half the battle. Since 95%+ of all defensive uses of a firearm don't involve a shot being fired, it is the appearance of the armed defender WHO APPEARS WILLING AND CAPABLE of using the firearm that wins the day. If an auto provides greater comfort to the defender and a more intimidating appearance to the attacker, wouldnt you agree that is good?

 

[M1911]

Jake:

I don't think the average criminal would know that someone was carrying only a single shot shotgun. All they'd likely see is a big f*ckin gun. They're not firearms aficianados, like we are. Personally, I'd much prefer having a pump or semi shotgun over any breakopen gun in such situations. But a single shot shotgun would sure beat strong words.

M1911

 

[Art Eatman]

Psychology plays a very large part in all this stuff. Looter-types aren't looking for a gunfight; they're looking for easy pickings. Hard to sit and watch TV with a bunch of birdshot in your butt.

The looter-type ain't gonna show up and compete in your next IDPA match, either. That's part of why I tend not to worry much about the particular type of weapon I have, so long as I have some amount of skill with it...

Art

 

[Grinch]

Art has a good point-

If we really want to address the primary threat to our lives, we would spend far more time working out and much less time eating junk food than sitting around on our rapidly growing arses debating which accessories are required on a defensive rifle.

Frankly, the chances of my life ending by a heart attack are far greater than my dying at the hands of a criminal or rioting mob.

And yes, I have and excercise a CHL, run 6-8 miles per week and am a strong proponent of the right to self defense. Just considering the odds, all things considered.

BTW, there isn't much blade protruding beyond the muzzle on that AR, not that an AR is much of a bayonet platform to begin with...

Grinch

 

[brionic]

Hi Art,

Agree with your points. Who cares what color the weapon system is...

I'm here in El Lay, and was armed to the teeth during the civil unrest in '92. Didn't have the need to use any force, thank God. But MANY people here were armed, at work, etc., and were comfortable knowing that NOBODY was busting into our place and walking out. Of course, none of us had a long gun slung over our shoulders, but this was early, before we realized that some REALLY BAD STUFF was happening all around us.

On the other hand, I remember several instances of home invasion during those riots in which citizens were bound and beaten or raped while their possessions were looted. Matter of fact, one such cased occured less than a mile from my (then) location in the Santa Monica/Venice area, which really struck home! In another case, one poor guy was shot through the head while waiting at a freeway offramp, pro'lly humming along to some pop ditty... Let me point out that I had used the same offramp only hours earlier, before the stuff started getting thick.

My point is that this stuff DID happen and, by extension, WILL happen again at some point, somewhere. What got most of us through was luck, attitude, planning, and avoidance. The rifle/shotgun/handgun was nice, too, "just in case".

Regards,
--
Brian

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Urban Assualt

Why waste your money on a new weapon? Kill the enemy with your 30-30 and take his combat weapon. Much cheaper.

Ernest T. Bass
Mayor Mayberry

 

[Art Eatman]

Brionic, we had a thread here a year or two ago about home-invasion robberies; they weren't riot-connected.

For a while in Houston, it was common for Bad Guys to follow well-dressed women home from one of the fancier malls and rob them as they drove up to their house.

In either scenario, the only solution is alertness and the possession of a very handy weapon. The odds are high--IMO--that anything but a handgun is essentially worthless: There's just no time!

Condition Yellow is important as a normal routine, but there are those moments--which one can commonly foresee--when Condition Very Yellow makes a difference.

, Art