A thought on Euro police mouse guns

[manta49]

Most European police forces carry 9mm handguns as for the UK the police in Scotland England and Wales most police don't carry firearms. They rely on armed response units but as the name implies (response) they usually arrive to late after the event. In N Ireland which is part of the UK all police are armed. Its also the only part of the UK that the police will in certain circumstances alloy a firearm for self defence. I know in America .45 is popular but in Europe i don't know any countries police or army use .45. How do they manage.

 

[jaughtman]

More.....

Not only do European police NOT carry .32's anymore, half the time over there you see them patrolling/walking with either a SMG or an assault rifle slung over their shoulder.

J

 

[BlueTrain]

Well, just how many police agencies in the United States use a handgun in .45 ACP for regular issue? This may have been covered in the thread about why they didn't use the .45 Colt in revolvers.

At this point in time, however, it is difficult to believe that the 9mm was not always so common, nor the .45 so old. The .45 auto was used just about as much as the 9mm before WWII. If I am remembering everything, the 9mm was standard only in Germany, Poland, Belgium and probably Austria. It was also standard in one or two other places. Italy, Hungary and Yugoslavia used the .380 while France was still getting by on .32 automatics. Finland used the .30 Luger. But the .45 was used in Norway, Mexico and some other odd countries. Even Great Britain used large numbers of .45 autos, though not all were in .45 ACP.

While I use the word "standard," it does not follow that any given standard weapon was used exclusively and following WWII, some countries like France (again) used whatever they could find.

The German police forces, always the most interesting, attempted to upgrade to something more powerful than .32 but still not a 9mm by adopting something called the 9mm Police, if I'm remembering the correct designation. It was about like the 9mm Makarov but not interchangeable. Pistols were made by Walther and Sig and they are something rare today.

I might also note here that in trying to find out a little more information about those 9mm Police autos (which I didn't find where I expected to find it), I did run across many references to Lugers, mostly, as used by Germany police as far back as the early 1930s as well as their use post war as well in both East and West Germany. So while German police did in fact use .32 automatics, their use of 9mm pistols goes back a long ways.

 

[Scouse]

My bad Manta49 - forgot our dear cousins in Nor'n Iron!

 

[Navy joe]

Well the serious reasons are covered save one.

If you're in France they're gonna give up if you just point a gun at them, might as well be a water pistol. Hmm, what if the criminal has a gun too? What's the protocol, who surrenders to whom?

 

[peacefulgary]

But,why are the European police OK with small calibers like a 32ACP?

Are there any police agencies in Europe today still using the .32 ACP?

I think most have been using the 9mm NATO since the late 1980's.

 

[Doyle]

Are there any police agencies in Europe today still using the .32 ACP?

I think most have been using the 9mm NATO since the late 1980's.

I think you are correct. All the old .32ACPs being imported are a couple of generations old.

 

[Mike Irwin]

When I was in France in 1980 and 1983 the police in Paris were still carrying MAB-style single action .32s.

But...

Just about every one of them had either a MAS 36 rifle or a MAT 49 submachine gun slung over their shoulder.

 

[jimbob86]

Question for ya:

At the time the Euro Policemen were carrying .32 Autos and the like, what was the average height and weight of the average european?

IIRC, the average height and weight of Americans was much greater form the mid 19th century on, due to an abundance of food..... though to look at the average weight of Americans today is proof that there can be too much of a good thing!

 

[BlueTrain]

The first .32 auto was a Browning and was introduced around 1900. They quickly became popular as you no doubt know. I don't think Americans during the first half of the last century were as heavy as they are now, judging from what I've read about the results of medical exams of draftees during WWI. They were far more likely to be underweight and that was also true in other countries. But that can be a little misleading since the average draftee is a young man. But it's still a good question. Don't forget there were large numbers of immigrants from Europe during the same period, too. That's where most of us came from, you know.

 

[m&p45acp10+1]

Mike hit the nail on the head. They carried small pistols due to the fact that it was a back up weapon. Most of them carried rifles, or sub machine guns.

 

[tdrizzle]

My first metro trip in Paris in 1998, World Cup time, I got on, dropped my pack and turned around to see a squad of CRS riot coppers in their navy jumpsuits with FAMAS 5.56 rifles chained to their harnesses. I suppose it was so someone couldn't steal their weapons if they were down, but if you'd seen one before and wanted to take a rifle, wouldn't you have brought something to kill the copper AND some bolt cutters? Don't remember what their sidearms were, but I do remember seeing some GIGN commandos storming an airliner in Marseilles, a few years later with their Korth .357s

I also remember a gorgeous Dutch cop, a tall blonde that looked like a biker fantasy wearing a jumpsuit, body armor, a Glock and carrying an MP5 at the airport when I was flying home. Still with I'd taken a picture of her.

And, there were the bobbies outside Buckingham Palace I did ask and receive permission to take snaps of. They all had four inch Smiths (this was all in 1998).

 

[bedbugbilly]

Geeze . . . when I read the caption of this thread I was hoping for some pictures!

 

[RUT]

>>9mm is just fine, Nato uses it.<<

Oh yeah, that makes me feel better.

 

[Mrgunsngear]

Geeze . . . when I read the caption of this thread I was hoping for some pictures!

Here's a couple of my blowback Euro guns:

 

[plom]

well, I think I might share here... When I started as Police Officer in 1992, there was only few Unique pistols chambered for the 32ACP issued to almost retired LEO, but the standard issued duty weapon was the manurhin mr 88 (some were lucky and got a MR 73) with a 3" barrel. We had 38 SP 158grs TMJ ammo issued.
in 2003 we got the Sig Sauer SP 2022 in 9mm.
The French Gendarmerie have been issued 9mm pistol for many years. They had the MAC 50, switched to the Beretta 92 FS (a french made one named MAS G1 pistol) and then ended with the SIG SP2022.

The last police in europe that used 32 ACP was the Danish Police, they droped their walther 32 ACP for the HK USP compact 9mm few years ago.

Violent crime in Europe is a sad reality, money transport are regulary attacked by gangs armed with RPG an AK coming from balkans.
Try to google the crime rate from a town like marseille and you'll understand why we had to switch issued weapons. In marseille, gangs members are shooting each others with AK on the street.

 

[BlueTrain]

No offence but we always thought Marseille was always like that. You know, like Chicago.

 

[plom]

yep I've been on some Police cooperations trough the International Police Association in the LAPD and they knew already then about our sad situation in France. I learned a lot from my US brothers.

 

[2damnold4this]

Thanks for your service, Plom. What ammunition are you issued for your Sigs?

 

[Scorch]

This is a complex cultural issue, not simply a weapons choice issue.

Pre-WW2, many European countries supplied their military officers with 32 ACP pistols, and a 9mm was considered a big gun, fit only for the brutish needs of the military. Small caliber handguns are quite effective against people who are not very determined, and the populace is trained to obey the man with the gun and to give up if they are wounded. In this light, it becomes easier to understand the photos from the World Wars where a relatively small number of soldiers is seen herding thousands of POWs.

Another consideration in the pre-antibiotic days was the likelihood of infection and death if you were shot (kind of the same reasoning with Japanese ninjas and shuriken). With the extensive documentation and record-keeping of European government agencies, it would have been virtually impossible to obtain medical treatment for a wound inflicted by one of these firearms.

Besides, a pistol is more of a symbol of authority in Europe, not a weapon to be used against determined assailants. If there were to be open rebellion or mayhem in the streets, the military would intervene (most European nations do not have the posse comitatis laws we included in our Constitution). Since the populace was trained to be compliant with the authorities, there was no need to arm the police with a serious weapon.