9mm vs 7.62x39

keithdog

New member
I'm a fan of the PCC trend. I really like slinging 9mm out of a carbine because it's just a lot of fun and it's cheap. More important, the local range doesn't allow for centerfire rifle rounds. Anyway, I liked the way my AR performed at 50-100 yards. Although I'm not so experienced/talented, I liked the way I could perform with it out to 200 yards just fine too.
Never have I shot my 9mm PCC out past 25 yards or so. It's fine at that range. Some forums I see suggest that that is the outer limits of PCC effectiveness. Other online-warriors suggest 200 yards should be easy with a 9mm carbine and a half decent scope, and that the round should still be able to cause serious harm out to that range. My question really boils down to the effectiveness of a 9mm vs a 7.62 at ranges beyond the hundred yard line. I've never fired 7.62x39 but I really want an AK chambered in it- unfortunately, forum warriors consistently preach that the standard AKM is not accurate, even with scopes, much past 100 yards or so. If that's so, I'm not sure why I would ever want to get a 7.62 AK if it can't even hang with the 9mm round- is that true, or have I been reading too much on forums? Surely the AKM, firing its centerfire rifle round, has an advantage when it comes to accurately putting rounds on target at extended ranges over the 9mm luger? Since I have no experience trying at longer ranges with these rounds, I hope someone here can set the issue straight.
Like, seriously, how can 7.62 not outperform 9mm at the 200 yard/meter line? Understand I am concerned less about power and more about the ability to reach out and touch my target. With that said, am I truly not better off with an AKM than a 9mm carbine for effective range?
 

keithdog

New member
Hang on I want to clarify a second. I want to reach out to 200+ yards accurately. 300 would be ideal. I don't want to hear about AR-15's or AR-10's or AR-who-gives-a-s$!ts. I know they have more range. I want a reliable rifle with cheap ammo that can ostensibly run with as little maintenance as possible under the worst conditions imaginable. That suggests AKM or the more robust 9mm carbines. AKM is more accurate in 7.62 than 9mm cabrine, yes?
 

Sharkbite

New member
A AK47 is GTG on a man sized tgt to at least 350. With a good sighting system and good ammo, even further then that.

A 9mm PCC is about done at 100-150ish. Hits “can” be made further, but that little pistol round is running out of steam and starting to drop pretty fast.

115gn bullet at 1300fps vs 123gn bullet at 2300fps. You decide.
 

T. O'Heir

New member
There is no 'VS' between 'em. The 7.62 x 39 is an assault rifle round. The 9mm is a pistol round.
The ballistics pretty much say everything. A 123 grain 7.62 x 39 FMJ runs at about 2430 FPS with about 1653 ft-lbs. of energy. A 124 grain FMJ 9mm runs at about 1150 FPS with 364 ft-lbs. of energy.
Sighted in at 100 yards, that 7.62 x 39 will drop ~ 7" at 200. That 9mm drops about 12" at 100, never mind 200. No data for that distance. Mind you, an AK isn't accurate enough to bother with shooting at 200 yards.
 

Fishbed77

New member
I've never fired 7.62x39 but I really want an AK chambered in it- unfortunately, forum warriors consistently preach that the standard AKM is not accurate, even with scopes, much past 100 yards or so. If that's so, I'm not sure why I would ever want to get a 7.62 AK if it can't even hang with the 9mm round- is that true, or have I been reading too much on forums?

You are learning that anyone can say anything on the internet, and you need to base your decisions on published facts rather than forum hearsay.

You also don't appear to currently have a strong grasp of the term "accuracy" when referring to rifle. If a rifle round is accurate (say, a 1 minute-of-angle dispersion) at 100 yards, it will typically be as accurate at 200, 300, 400, or greater yards, outside of external influences such as wind (as least until the bullet goes subsonic). Granted, this is a VERY simplified explanation.

That said, the 7.62x39mm cartridge deposits significantly more energy downrange than any 9x19mm loading. See T O'HEIR's explanation above. So it has that going for it.

Just like ARs, the accuracy of a 7.62x39mm rifle can vary considerably, depending on the quality of the rifle. Don't be surprised if a quality foreign factory-produced AK shoots better than a cobbled-together parts kit rifle. I own a 7.62x39mm Russian Izhmash Saiga that is easily 2 - 2.5 MOA accurate, which puts it on par with a typical issued M4. The typical notch sights of an AK, however, do not make shooting accurately as easy for many as the aperture sights of an AR.


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jmr40

New member
At 25 yards there isn't much real world difference in the ability to stop a threat. Energy never killed anything, bullet placement and penetration do. The 9mm bullet is 35 caliber vs 30 caliber and bullet weight is either the same or heavier with 9mm. From a carbine length barrel 9mm speeds will be much faster than the ballistics charts say, and a 7.62 will be slower than stated.

Beyond 25 yards the 7.62 has the edge, but it still isn't a long range cartridge.

115gn bullet at 1300fps vs 123gn bullet at 2300fps. You decide.

From a carbine length barrel try 124 gr at about 1500 fps or 147 gr at 1300 fps vs 123 at about 2000 fps.
 

keithdog

New member
This is all very helpful. If money was no issue I'd just run some .308 battle rifle if I want something powerful with some range. Where I live, were the S to HTF, it is unlikely I would ever need to push shots out past 200. I know for a fact 9mm can land out there pretty easily with a scope, but the power is of course not ideal if I want to take a deer or drop a man-threat. What you guys are saying reinforces my previous assumption that 7.62 must have superior accuracy- Fishbed, not to be a dick, but to say I have a poor grasp on the meaning of accuracy is disregarding my question altogether. I have a very poor grasp on the accuracy of AK's or PCC's out past 100 yards, true enough. My question wasn't about accuracy in general, it was a question as to whether or not the standard AKM (think wasr-10, arsenal, I'm not going fancy and I don't care if anyone thinks me a fool for not doing so) will be likely to put out (meaningfully) tighter groups than 9mm. Some folks say AK's can't do better than 6" groups at a hundred. We all know 9mm carbines with good ammo and optics are within that ballpark. So, if we're talking close range generally, not 400 500 or 600 yard shots, is it even worth getting the AK when I already have a decent 9mm carbine? If I want accuracy and range I'll run 5.56. I already know 7.62 will drop pretty hard at those ranges.
 

keithdog

New member
PS Nobody needs to tell me 7.62 is more powerful and therefore better. That isn't the question I asked.
 

keithdog

New member
I'm wanting to get wasr 10 with side mount and the primary arms 3x acss reticle for 7.62/.300 blk. When I look at charts and listen to anecdotal stories I just keep doubting that the wasr 10 will really put rounds down with any significant advantage in terms of close range (100-200 meter) accuracy.
 

keithdog

New member
T O Heir said:
Sighted in at 100 yards, that 7.62 x 39 will drop ~ 7" at 200. That 9mm drops about 12" at 100, never mind 200. No data for that distance. Mind you, an AK isn't accurate enough to bother with shooting at 200 yards.

Fishbed said:
If a rifle round is accurate (say, a 1 minute-of-angle dispersion) at 100 yards, it will typically be as accurate at 200, 300, 400, or greater yards

Those statements appear to contradict, or do I not understand?

You said, I own a 7.62x39mm Russian Izhmash Saiga that is easily 2 - 2.5 MOA accurate, which puts it on par with a typical issued M4
Based upon your own argument, that same AK should be shooting similarly at 200-300. You also suggested I look at T'O'Heir's explanation, but he says an AK isn't accurate enough to both at 200 yards. Well, a spread of 2-4 inches at 2-300 yards seems perfectly accurate to me. If these statements don't contradict each other, I am just too thick to understand how. Sorry to be difficult. I'm just confused about it.
 

Mobuck

Moderator
"Well, a spread of 2-4 inches at 2-300 yards seems perfectly accurate to me. If these statements don't contradict each other, I am just too thick to understand how. "

A 2-4" "spread" @ 100 yards equals 4-8" @ 200 and 6-12" @300. The 7.62 bullet has a higher sectional density than a 9mm bullet, shoots flatter , and hits harder at longer range. A 6-12" 300 yard group is still "minute of man" if the hold is perfect.
 

stagpanther

New member
I would say go find a ballistics calculator and compare realistic loads and BC's for the respective weapon's cartridges and you'll figure it out for yourself.
 

xandi

New member
IMO unless you have a sub gun (mp5 or something, full auto) or it’s a fun plinker go 7.62x39. It has better range a power.
They do make ARs in that flavor btw
Edit: there is a reason that no one(countries) issues sub machineguns anymore(post ww2), the Immediate rifle cartages Will do most of what a pistol cal smg can do and outside of 150/200 meters everything better.
 
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amd6547

New member
I was on a 9mm Carbine binge for a few years. Having owned different models (UZI, Hipoint, Marlin), I consider the platform to be a useful weapon out to 100yds...at that range, I could easily keep all rounds on a paper dinner plate.
As for the AK, a good example will hold a 2.5” group at 100yds with irons, in my hands.
They serve different purposes and have different capabilities and strengths.

Eventually, I sold off my semi UZI to fund a CMP GI M1 Carbine, which replaced it in the HD role for me...I just love the Carbine and it’s round.

I am, however tempted by the Ruger takedown 9, and the Hipoint 10mm.
 

stagpanther

New member
OR In the "just to be different and cool" category--take a look at a mini carbine/pistol chambered in 7.62 x 25 tokarev instead of a 9mm.:D
 

Model12Win

Moderator
The AK is a 300 yard MAX range rifle. After that and the round plummet like a rock, making them virtually impossible to compensate for the incredible drop after that distance.

It is best at 100 yards on in, but only for defensive purposes. For hunting on deer-sized game, I wouldn't use one past 25-50 yards.
 

marine6680

New member
I am going to get into the weeds a bit in this post, as you seem confused on some specifics of what the others were talking about. As such, I don't know what knowledge you have or concepts you are familiar with... So I am breaking it down to basics here.


An AK... They can be reasonably accurate, or horrible depending on the quality of the individual rifle.

From what I have seen... A lower end AK may be capable of groups of 4-6in at 100yds. If you get a more mid-range rifle at around the $1000 price point, I see people's reporting between 2-4in at 100yds as an average. The really nice AKs that run $1500 and up, they can get 1-2in on average. This is all just a rough average, and some rifles may do better or worse. This is also basically pure mechanical accuracy. The skill of the shooter and their chosen aiming device will come into play. (AK iron sights are not as precise or easy to use as other options)

In contrast, the average accuracy for an AR in the $600-800 price range is 1.5-2in at 100yds. I have seen worse though, and some low end ones may be 2-4in... Spending $1000- 1500 on an AR is no guarantee it will shoot significantly better than 1.5-2in, but the higher end ones usually do 1in at 100yds on average from my experience and repots online.

Ammo quality plays a part here... Cheap ammo results in lower performance, which is why AKs can get a bad wrap on accuracy, and the fact that a lot of guys just get lower end rifles too. So between a mediocre rifle and crap ammo, good results are not to be expected.

That being said, a decent AK will be able to hit a man size target at 300yds, using milspec ammo, without much difficulty if you have the skill to use it.


Bullet energy and capabilities are very important for a SHTF situation... If you are truly in a direction situation, you want your chosen weapon to be effective. Any weapon can be better than no weapon, but if you have the choice, you want to make a good one.

A 9mm even from a PCC is a poor performer at stopping threats. (Basically all pistol calibers are poor performers) Pistol calibers are easier to suppress, which is why they were popular in small sub guns for so long. And the only reason sub guns where created in the first place is to make a small and easy to control full auto weapon for relatively close range work, to supplement the rifle teams using full sized rifles... Being full auto helped make up for the lower effectiveness of the pistol calibers, due to being able to put several rounds into the target very quickly.

Back in the early 1900s the concept of an intermediate caliber wasn't a thing. So they had full power rifle rounds like 30-06 and pistol rounds like 45acp. 30-06 did not make for an easy to control short range full auto weapon. So the subgun was born. The sub gun concept remained popular for decades after, but have relatively recently gone out of favor for small and light SBRs for the units that used to use sub guns. Modern advances have pushed the subgun into a smaller niche.


Rifle bullets have more velocity and energy. And yes energy is important, as the energies and velocities of rifle rounds are high enough that you see secondary wounding capabilities that pistols do not have. So a rifle round can be effective even if shot placement isn't perfect.

They also have higher sectional density and more aerodynamic shapes, which means they lose less velocity and energy as they travel, which gives them even more advantage over pistol bullets at longer ranges.

And a PCC isn't a subgun... It can not make up for it's lack of power with volume of fire.

This is a very important consideration if SHTF, or simple home defense, is a role your weapon is to fill.


Here are the basics on accuracy, aiming, and distance...

There is bullet drop... This is how much the bullet falls (drops) from the line of sight, due to gravity, as it flies though the air.

Everything falls at the same rate in relation to the time in the air, so going faster means you can go a longer distance for the same amount of drop. A rough way to look at it, though not perfectly accurate due to the nature of how gravity works... Is that something going twice as fast, will go twice as far for the same amount of drop.

A 9mm from a PCC is much slower than a 7.62x39, so the amount of bullet drop at a given distance is greater.

This matters because it affects the ballistics of aiming. With something like a red dot sight, or a scope that does not have a bullet drop calculated reticle, you would be forced to "hold over"... Basically you would have to adjust your point of aim on the target, to get the bullet to strike where you want it to.

For the 9mm zeroed at 25yds, you may have to aim a foot high to get it to hit the bullseye, and maybe 2ft high to hit at say 150yds.

Rifle rounds are faster, and "shoot flatter", meaning you need less hold over at a given distance. The ability to zero at a longer range helps too.

Something like the 55gr 5.56 zeroed at 50yds has a ballisic profile that allows you to aim at a given point, and only deviate between 2in high and low, from 0-250yds, and only needing something like 4in of hold at 300yds. Basically, aim center of mass all the way to 300yds, and you will make an effective hit. 7.62x39 isn't as flat shooting though. The ballistics of 7.62x39 have much greater drop, so the round is most effective at 300yds or less,as the rate of drop gets very high past that. And the energies drop of quickly as well. 5.45 and 5.56 are better for 300-500yds. In general they are good performers on the whole, but the 7.62x39 does hit pretty hard inside 150yds compared to the other two.


Accuracy... Many times we will say something like, "this rifle can shoot 2in groups at 100yds" and that is all well and good... But firearm accuracy at least for rifles, when we are talking 100yds and more... Is really measured properly in Minutes of Angle or "MOA"

MOA is an angular measurement. The point/source of the angle is the barrel of the rifle.

1moa is basically 1in at 100yds. It's mostly just a coincidence that 1moa is roughly 1in at 100yds. The real measurement of 1moa isn't exactly 1in at 100yds, it's actually slightly more. (Most shooters can ignore the small difference. It does matter more to precision shooters of high skill though, as the difference adds up as the distance to the target increases)

The nature of an angular measurement is that the distance to the target matters as to what size the physical group on the target is. This is because as two lines, separated by an angle get farther from the source of the angle, they get farther apart.

Meaning a rifle capable of 1moa accuracy will shoot a group of 1in at 100yds, and it will shoot 2in at 200yds, and 3in at 300yds and so on. The same rifle will shoot a half inch group at fifty yards, and a quarter inch at 25 yards. 1moa increases in size by a quarter inch for every 25yds.

Another example is a 3moa rifle will shoot a 3in group at 100yds, and a 6in group at 200yds, so on and so on.

This linear increase in group size relative to distance Is strictly on paper though. Based on perfect conditions and no variables. Shooter skill comes into play as well as the ammo quality. Most shooters will not be able to hold to the same level of accuracy as distance increases, due to the increased difficulty in consistent aiming. Ammo quality palys a role, as small variations between individual bullets themselves and the loaded cartridges they are part of, will amplify as distance increases. As the distance gets even farther, and the bullet slows down, the change from a supersonic speed to a subsonic speed can cause instabilities as well.

Rifle rounds with their higher aerodynamics, and increased sectional density, are inherently more accurate than pistol rounds. The difference is just more apparent at longer ranges.

Many PCC are only capable of several MOA at 100yds, and their lower aerodynamic efficiency means they tend to get worse at longer ranges. So say... 3moa at 100yds may turn into 8moa at 200yds.


Also... You want a rifle capable of handling rough conditions... But you are dismissive of the AR...

They are no where near as delicate or as finicky as many think. They can handle a lot of abuse and tolerate getting pretty dirty too. Just Google "filthy 14" for an account of an AR going many many thousands of rounds with no cleaning, and working just fine.

Sure, an AK may handle a little neglect and lack of regular cleaning and lubrication better than an AR... But if you can manage to wipe off the BCG with a rag and apply a little oil (old motor oil would work fine) every now and then... The AR will work just fine.
 
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stagpanther

New member
Nice post marine.:)

I'd like to add just a bit on the nature of pistol bullets--they are, well, designed for pistols--so they are inherently effective only within a narrow velocity range, being designed for pistol velocities. This can present problems when pushing them very fast (as I have found out in a 10mm carbine and a 9 x 25 Dillon pistol which I can push a 9mm bullet to around 2000 fps). They can also be finicky on feeding in carbines depending on the bullet and actions design compared to something like the 7.62 x 39--which for all it's faults-- is IMO among the top cartridge designs of all times when it comes to feed and firing reliability.

I bought a PSA AR47 upper for $150--it has a fixed A2 front post and conventional delta-ring/glacier guard set-up (not free floated) and it outshoots any 7.62 x 39 weapon I've ever shot--plus it handles higher pressures better since you have a fully locking and supported chamber/bolt design (another reason I'm not fond of blow-back carbine designs).

If engaging an entire division of zombies with well-provisioned bunkers of cheap ammo are high priorities on your list--and "AR's are just too uncool for me"--then a good AK is your best bet.:)
 
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keithdog

New member
Wow, marine. I think you answered that as thoroughly as can be hoped. Thanks to all of you for taking the time to reply, but special thanks to you, Stag, cuz you always do- and 2x thanks to marine for that in depth analysis. You have all given me much to think about.
 
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