Good choice get a couple boxes so you can function test them well and get a good feel for how they shoot at different ranges. another good source is www.sgammo.com
9mm HD: 124 gr + p vs. 147 gr
- Thread starter TunnelRat
- Start date
Good choice get a couple boxes so you can function test them well and get a good feel for how they shoot at different ranges. another good source is www.sgammo.com
@ BarryLee
I think the theory is just that the police will hopefully be using a good quality ammo, or at least one that will have had more "real world" use than any regular civilian would find. Hence choose that ammo. This is probably true and not at the same time.
As for the legalities, search around and you will find tons of threads on that. I am lucky enough to live in a state where if someone broke into my home and I was unable to get my family out without using deadly force, I am pretty sure a jury of my peers wouldn't care if I shot him with 124 gr +p 9mm ammo or flachette ammo out of a shotgun. Whether that is a good thing or bad thing, that's your call. I seem to remember someone having a great signature that says "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6". I.E., that person would rather stand trial than be carried in a coffin. Use what is comfortable to you and is legal to own. As long as it's legal, debates on "too aggressive or too powerful" seem moot to me, but that can depend on where you live.
@ mavracer
My plan is to get like 4 boxes, 1 to test fire and 3 to keep. I'm going to see if my local shop has a box of 147 gr just to try as I've never fired that weight in 9.
I think the theory is just that the police will hopefully be using a good quality ammo, or at least one that will have had more "real world" use than any regular civilian would find. Hence choose that ammo. This is probably true and not at the same time.
As for the legalities, search around and you will find tons of threads on that. I am lucky enough to live in a state where if someone broke into my home and I was unable to get my family out without using deadly force, I am pretty sure a jury of my peers wouldn't care if I shot him with 124 gr +p 9mm ammo or flachette ammo out of a shotgun. Whether that is a good thing or bad thing, that's your call. I seem to remember someone having a great signature that says "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6". I.E., that person would rather stand trial than be carried in a coffin. Use what is comfortable to you and is legal to own. As long as it's legal, debates on "too aggressive or too powerful" seem moot to me, but that can depend on where you live.
@ mavracer
My plan is to get like 4 boxes, 1 to test fire and 3 to keep. I'm going to see if my local shop has a box of 147 gr just to try as I've never fired that weight in 9.
secret_agent_man
Moderator
How is Black Hills Ammo getting 1300 fps out of a 115 grain bullet with just a +P rating, assuming a four inch barrel?
At 1300 fps on 115 grains, a 147 grain round at current velocities for that weight starts to become irrelevant.
http://www.black-hills.com/handgun_calibers.php
At 1300 fps on 115 grains, a 147 grain round at current velocities for that weight starts to become irrelevant.
http://www.black-hills.com/handgun_calibers.php
Sounds to me like you made a sweeping statement that held little water and Don Glock's logical rebuttal made you defensive.
Any "over the counter" JHP will do just fine...and all without legal ramification if they happen to be other than what the local LEO is issued that year.
@ Don Glock
I appreciate proper sources. My beef with you came from the fact that it seemed to me that you were being a little disrespectful to mavracer by saying "you've done all the reading, but come to the incorrect conclusion lol ". It just seemed to me that you were blowing him off completely.
I am actually a statistician, I have a degree in statistics, and I can tell you two things.
1. I can make a study say anything I want to if I have a motive, so be really questionable with paper sources because I have seen a lot of poorly done studies, some with motives.
2. There are many ways to interpret the exact same data.
I don't mind arguing but I mind when people start being dismissive of others. Yes this is an internet forum, but that doesn't mean we have to act like teenagers.
I appreciate proper sources. My beef with you came from the fact that it seemed to me that you were being a little disrespectful to mavracer by saying "you've done all the reading, but come to the incorrect conclusion lol ". It just seemed to me that you were blowing him off completely.
I am actually a statistician, I have a degree in statistics, and I can tell you two things.
1. I can make a study say anything I want to if I have a motive, so be really questionable with paper sources because I have seen a lot of poorly done studies, some with motives.
2. There are many ways to interpret the exact same data.
I don't mind arguing but I mind when people start being dismissive of others. Yes this is an internet forum, but that doesn't mean we have to act like teenagers.
Rampant_Colt
New member
I find it amusing that i get attacked for making sweeping statements, yet the link in my post, the same place where "Don Glock" gets his information from, HERE, was edited out and overlooked. Go re-read my other posts in this thread
There's nothing at all wrong with using the same ammo as your local PD or Sheriff. Evidently i don't understand wound ballistics, or appreciate proper sources..
See, I'm using smiley faces too
statistics cannot be applied to wound data accurately, there's WAY too many factors to be considered. an example would be marshal&sanow, who've were discredited long ago by every reputable source. (i.e. the FBI, dr. fackler, dr. roberts etc.)
i appreciate your degree, but trying to apply it to "one shot stop" percentages will lead you down the wrong road.
if he read all the info, he did indeed come to the wrong conclusions. i call it like i see it.
i just try to help out folks to make an informed decision, however you can lead a horse to water.....
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Just a couple of thoughts here. First off, I've seen the link from AR15.com that Rampant Colt posted several times before, but I've been unable to find much info on the author beyond this:
Could anyone be so kind as to give me any information or credentials on Dr. Roberts and the author of that document if it's someone other than Dr. Roberts?
Also, as to the advice to use the same ammo as your local LE agency. While that's by and large good advice, there are a couple of caveats to it. First of all, many people may not be able to follow it because the loading of choice of their local PD may not be available in that individual's caliber of choice. While I have no doubt that Ranger-T or Federal HST's are excellent bullets (I use them myself in certain calibers), they are a mite hard to get in .357 Magnum and 10mm Auto.
Secondly, while in the extreme minority, some police departments still use downright bad ammo. The NYPD, for example was still using .38 Special LRN and 9mm FMJ until the late 1990's. I've also heard of several LE agencies that still use very dated loadings like the Federal Hi-Shok 115grn +P+. Research the ammo your local PD uses and only use the same if they're using a modern premium JHP.
Could anyone be so kind as to give me any information or credentials on Dr. Roberts and the author of that document if it's someone other than Dr. Roberts?
Also, as to the advice to use the same ammo as your local LE agency. While that's by and large good advice, there are a couple of caveats to it. First of all, many people may not be able to follow it because the loading of choice of their local PD may not be available in that individual's caliber of choice. While I have no doubt that Ranger-T or Federal HST's are excellent bullets (I use them myself in certain calibers), they are a mite hard to get in .357 Magnum and 10mm Auto.
Secondly, while in the extreme minority, some police departments still use downright bad ammo. The NYPD, for example was still using .38 Special LRN and 9mm FMJ until the late 1990's. I've also heard of several LE agencies that still use very dated loadings like the Federal Hi-Shok 115grn +P+. Research the ammo your local PD uses and only use the same if they're using a modern premium JHP.
secret_agent_man
Moderator
If statistics are inapplicable to wounding, then perhaps a little empirical evidence will convince. MikeNice81 wrote this comment earlier. It sounds like something one could rely on in the absence of statistical analysis. Individual shootings will vary of course. But in the long run, empirical evidence will show reliable patterns:
Wildalaska
Moderator
You guys get so waaaaay out of control over this stuff...y'all ain't the PoPo or soldiers so why all the debate over 30 grains and 100 fps?
For amusement, I just dropped the mag out of my High power, which is my "carry" gun (actually my car gun but who counts).
In said mag I have:
One Corbon 115 grainer, two Hydroshoks, one 147 Black talon, one Federal something or other and the rest is mixed ball. Guess this was the stuff rolling around the glove box after i shot off my last mag of misc carry stuff...I have ammo everywhere.
Am I unarmed? Guess if I shoot someone in the face, if its a ball round he/she/it wont die, huh?
Wildohnoimgonnadieifigetinagunfightcuzmyammoisnt190gr+p+unobtainiumAlaska ™©2002-2011
For amusement, I just dropped the mag out of my High power, which is my "carry" gun (actually my car gun but who counts).
In said mag I have:
One Corbon 115 grainer, two Hydroshoks, one 147 Black talon, one Federal something or other and the rest is mixed ball. Guess this was the stuff rolling around the glove box after i shot off my last mag of misc carry stuff
...I have ammo everywhere.Am I unarmed? Guess if I shoot someone in the face, if its a ball round he/she/it wont die, huh?
Wildohnoimgonnadieifigetinagunfightcuzmyammoisnt190gr+p+unobtainiumAlaska ™©2002-2011
I've read this many times. I don't disbelieve it necessarily. However I have seen what happens when you are sitting there talking to a person when they have a sudden bad heart arrhythmia: gasp, turn red, some tonic clonic like motions, followed by agonal respiration and death. Probably ventricular tachycardia or massive PE. Don't know since the family didn't agree to autopsy. However, in either case sudden lack of perfusion pressure / cardiac output. People react badly when their heart stops working, very quickly. So yes a heart shot might not immediately incapacitate, but obliteration? I think that would have dramatic effects.....
When something is adrenalized in a life-or-death situation, it can often do things that would otherwise be physiologically impossible. For example, my grandfather once shot a deer with a 20ga rifled slug. The deer ran a good 80-100 yards before collapsing and dying. Upon field-dressing the animal, it was found that the slug had completely severed the aorta just above the heart. Short of completely removing the heart, I can't think of a faster way to cause a drop in blood pressure yet the deer still managed to run a while.
40caljustice
New member
You guys get so waaaaay out of control over this stuff...y'all ain't the PoPo or soldiers so why all the debate over 30 grains and 100 fps?
For amusement, I just dropped the mag out of my High power, which is my "carry" gun (actually my car gun but who counts).
In said mag I have:
One Corbon 115 grainer, two Hydroshoks, one 147 Black talon, one Federal something or other and the rest is mixed ball. Guess this was the stuff rolling around the glove box after i shot off my last mag of misc carry stuff
Am I unarmed? Guess if I shoot someone in the face, if its a ball round he/she/it wont die, huh?
Wildohnoimgonnadieifigetinagunfightcuzmyammoisnt190gr+p+unobtainiumAlaska ™©2002-2011
+1000
If it isn't this bad guys kryptonite then its going to bounce off. 115 will feel like flies hitting him and 147 is too slow. He can dodge all my shots. Man! I have to find the right mixture. A 125.3fmjhp is what I use. Come on.
@ don glock
To be honest I really don't think you are qualified to say what statistics can or can't do.
I don't remember making any comments at all about applying statistics to one shot stopping anything. I do remember saying that statistics has taught me to be leery of any study. I think you need to read my comments more carefully and not put words in my mouth.
To be honest I really don't think you are qualified to say what statistics can or can't do.
I don't remember making any comments at all about applying statistics to one shot stopping anything. I do remember saying that statistics has taught me to be leery of any study. I think you need to read my comments more carefully and not put words in my mouth.